Civil Discussion About Religion

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

No you're misunderstanding me. I understood his point, he said just because you can't see the wind doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Likewise, you can't see God, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. I got the point. Now here's mine: I only believe that things exist if there is scientific evidence that it exists. I don't have to see the evidence with my eyes, but there has to be evidence. Wind: you don't see it, but you feel it on your skin, and you can measure its velocity. Chemical scanners can analyze it and tell you that it's made up of oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and other gases. Other stars in space: detected by Hubble.

I don't believe God exists because there's no evidence of it. People who believe in him go on faith. In the bolded part above, you're simply asking the fundamental question. Do you or don't you believe God exists? I don't. I need evidence. There is NONE. There is only faith. That's not enough for me. If it is for you, that's fine. But please, don't try to tell me that because I can't see the wind, and because I can't see God, therefore he exists. That's the most retarded logic in the world.

FYI- thanks for toning down the posts...I feel you offer a good counterpoint to the arguments, so I would not like to see your posts ignored.
I agree that just because you can't see the wind, that is an arguement for the existance of God. I am glad to see you got the point as well.
I do firmly beleive that to prove the existance of God, you need look no farther than the mirror. A human being can not scientifically be proven. There are so many loop holes in how we started to where we are now from a scientific standpoint. How do we all of a sudden "adapt" to our surroundings, then grow stuff to accomodate? The human body is so complex that is could not have been by accident. I realize this is opinion, but so is evolution. (keep in mind I fully beleive in evolution). Evolution is not fact, it is theory...or opinion. After I am done looking at myself in the mirror to my beliefs that God exists, I look around the world at how everything fits just right. How can there be no other planet in all our explored galaxies that can sustain our life? How is it from the billions and billions or stars / planets, this is the ONLY one we can live on? The only one that has such a delecate system that we can actually wipe ourselves off the planet? It's just right, not too hot, not too cold, plenty of oxygen, plenty of sun light...perfect rotation, perfect revolution etc. It's just too much of a coincidence not to be from a higher design. The odds of all this being like this by coincidence is so astronomical I don't have enough space to place the odds. How can science honestly overcome those odds?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I seem close minded to you because I'm unwilling to go on faith alone regarding the existence of God. I was engaging the morons in this thread who tried to present "scientific" evidence that the theory of evolution has been disproven. I won't apologize for coming harsh at someone who does that. Everyone knows that there is no scientific evidence disproving the theory of evolution. If there was, it would never be taught in our public schools again. Giving me a link to some guy's musings and passing it off as scientific proof is nothing short of retarded, and quite frankly, insulting to my intelligence.

I have no problem with your views at all. I think if you believe in it, that's great. There really is no harm in being religious at all (as long as you don't organize against other faiths or discriminate against other faiths, and I don't think you do). What I have a problem with is trying to pass off a heaping pile of crap as actual evidence. I mean we all went to high school right? We all know that evidence needs to come from credible sources, right? We know that if we write a term paper and say something like E=MC2 (my friend James told me so). No, we have to put E=MC2 (Einstein).

Just like in Redskin related threads we ask for links to news stories, I'm doing the same thing here. You can't come on the board making claims that aren't true and then go linking to some hack. Again, the problem wasn't with his or your belief. The problem was with the style of debate.

Religion is all about faith. For anyone to think they can prove the existence of God, then they don't even understand religion at all. His existence cannot be proven. You can only believe in him based on faith. That's the entire point of religion: believe in Him and ye shall be saved.

Again, I appreciate your points, and your approach.
I will say this, It is by faith I believe in God, just as it is by faith I beleive in evolution. Science said that world was flat, they were wrong. It is faith in the human mind that makes me beleive in evolution. But I also say again, evolution is not the answer to who, but the answer to how.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Jsarno, I'd love to discuss gambling more, because I do love it. But given that it's off topic, this is going to be my last post on the subject.

The math is simple. Every spot on the board pays you off as if there are 36 possible numbers to bet. If you bet red or black, they pay you 1 to 1 (36/18). If you bet 1st 12, they pay you 3 to 1 (36/12). If you play a 4-corner bet, they pay you 9 to 1 (36/4). But there are 38 spots on the board. That means, on average, you're going to make your money back on 36 of the 38 spots. On the 37th and 38th spots, you will lose. That's why the house advantage in roullette is 5.2% (on a table with 0 and 00). It's 2.7% on a table with just 0. You can look those numbers up.

That means over time, if you play enough, you will lose either 5.2% or 2.7% of the money you bet.

I can tell that if all you're doing is playing on cruises and the occasional trip to the casino, your system hasn't gotten a good enough workout. I encourage you to play 1000 spins, betting the same amount of money each time, using any system you wish. You'll see the results.

That's it on the subject.

I agree with you, it is off subject, and we should no longer comment on it. I ask again, just try what I posted. I know the numbers you provide. I have a masters in finance...I KNOW numbers. I beleive I found a small loop hole in the system.
ps- I have played more roulette than everyone on this site combined (more than likely). I'm not trying to tell you to kill someone...I'm telling you just to try my basic system on a free website. That's all. You canPM me with how much you "won". It's free, what's the harm?

[steveo395]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

OK I'll humor you. Your Christian website has a very limited understanding of the law of thermodynamics. The law states that matter becomes more disorderly over time - ie decays. But evolution states that the order of organic matter is actually becoming more organized, therefore it violates the law of thermodynamics. That's laughable.

When a person dies, their bodies do indeed decay. But evolution is the result of changes in the OFFSPRING of the dead person. I ask you, how does a human being grow? It takes the matter (organic molecules from food, like protien) synthesizes them, and adds the molecules to the body. That body grows to full size, and later dies. Then the decay happens. But while some people are dying and decaying, others are being born and growing. As our great grandparents lay dead in their caskets and decaying, our children are growing up, and creating new babies. Every time you create a new baby, you're not actually taking matter away from the parents, you know that right? The new child builds it's body up on FOOD, not decaying matter.

And you want to call this science? They don't even understand the disconnect between the law of thermodynamics and new life growing through the introduction of fresh food to the body.

It didn't say that people can't have offspring and grow up. It said that overall in the entire universe, things are moving to disorder and that evolution goes against this. You also still haven't proved anything for evolution.

[jsarno]

It's off to work guys...I'll see you tomorrow.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

FYI- thanks for toning down the posts...I feel you offer a good counterpoint to the arguments, so I would not like to see your posts ignored.
I agree that just because you can't see the wind, that is an arguement for the existance of God. I am glad to see you got the point as well.
I do firmly beleive that to prove the existance of God, you need look no farther than the mirror. A human being can not scientifically be proven. There are so many loop holes in how we started to where we are now from a scientific standpoint. How do we all of a sudden "adapt" to our surroundings, then grow stuff to accomodate? The human body is so complex that is could not have been by accident. I realize this is opinion, but so is evolution. (keep in mind I fully beleive in evolution). Evolution is not fact, it is theory...or opinion. After I am done looking at myself in the mirror to my beliefs that God exists, I look around the world at how everything fits just right. How can there be no other planet in all our explored galaxies that can sustain our life? How is it from the billions and billions or stars / planets, this is the ONLY one we can live on? The only one that has such a delecate system that we can actually wipe ourselves off the planet? It's just right, not too hot, not too cold, plenty of oxygen, plenty of sun light...perfect rotation, perfect revolution etc. It's just too much of a coincidence not to be from a higher design. The odds of all this being like this by coincidence is so astronomical I don't have enough space to place the odds. How can science honestly overcome those odds?

We haven't checked out all the planets in the universe. Because first off, many scientists believe, and this is a recent story, that life does/did exist on Mars (just not the kind of life we're used to: this life is Hydrogen Peroxide based as opposed to Water based).

If we could examine all the planets in the universe, there very well may be plenty that we can live on.

Secondly, I bolded a section of your post above because it is most alarming. It appears that you don't understand evolution at all. Evolution is not a person's ability to adapt to it's environment. And we definitely didn't do it all of a sudden. Take a skunk's ancestor. The way it works is 99.999% of those animals are born completely normal, similar to the rest of the population. Then there will be one skunk born with the ability to spray smelly crap all over a predator, freaking him out, and scaring him away. That skunk has sex with other skunks. The genetic trait gets passed down. That keeps happening until the predators eventually stop attacking the stinky skunks, and they kill off all the normal ones. This takes generations and generations.

It's not that we can adapt that quickly. It's that every now and then, we make a baby that can survive something the others can. And he passes that trait on until it dominates the population.

Maybe you knew that, maybe you didn't. But I felt the need to clarify the theory.

The other bolded part I noted was your section saying to prove the existence of God, look in the mirror. That's not proof. That's your belief.

Let's get our definitions right:

Prove - to establish the truth or genuineness of

Believe - to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I agree with you, it is off subject, and we should no longer comment on it. I ask again, just try what I posted. I know the numbers you provide. I have a masters in finance...I KNOW numbers. I beleive I found a small loop hole in the system.
ps- I have played more roulette than everyone on this site combined (more than likely). I'm not trying to tell you to kill someone...I'm telling you just to try my basic system on a free website. That's all. You canPM me with how much you "won". It's free, what's the harm?

I also have the MBA in Finance. I also majored in math in college.

Masters or not, you're wrong.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Wrong again, Flanders. There are 38 squares on the board (including 0 and 00), but you only get paid 36 times your money for hitting a number.

Do that over time and you're going to lose, guaranteed.

Gambling wins and losses come from repeating the bets over the short run. Over the short run, luck rules the game. Over the long run, the math always wins.

My name's not Flanders. How did you come up with that?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

It's off to work guys...I'll see you tomorrow.

Just wondering, where is it that your work begins at 2:00 pm New Mexico time? That's an interesting finance job. Sales maybe?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by steveo395

It didn't say that people can't have offspring and grow up. It said that overall in the entire universe, things are moving to disorder and that evolution goes against this. You also still haven't proved anything for evolution.

Evolution cannot be proven or disproven. The theory is based on what has happened over the last billions of years. If we could go back in time, then maybe it would work.

So please stop asking me to prove evolution. I can offer evidence in support of the theory, but it is common knowledge that it cannot be proven.

No scientist has ever disproven it, either.

As for thermodynamics, you don't understand the law. The law applies to matter. The matter that comprises one person does not get put into a new person. You know that, right? People do not grow by taking matter from other humans. They grow by eating food. They eat it, it decays in their stomachs, gets processed, and gets added to the body. Thermodynamics doesn't apply to the offspring, it applies to the dead body.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Wrong again, Flanders. There are 38 squares on the board (including 0 and 00), but you only get paid 36 times your money for hitting a number.

Do that over time and you're going to lose, guaranteed.

Gambling wins and losses come from repeating the bets over the short run. Over the short run, luck rules the game. Over the long run, the math always wins.

Figured it out, you're right. It would only work for a limited time.

[saden1]

Schneed10, chill out man...agree to disagree.

[steveo395]

Schneed, how could you believe in evolution if you have never seen it happen. It has never been observed anywhere, not in a lab or in nature. Isn't that the same reason why you don't believe in God? I know some species have slightly changed to their environment, but they have never been changed into a new species. How could you then believe it if it has never been seen?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by steveo395

Schneed, how could you believe in evolution if you have never seen it happen. It has never been observed anywhere, not in a lab or in nature. Isn't that the same reason why you don't believe in God? I know some species have slightly changed to their environment, but they have never been changed into a new species. How could you then believe it if it has never been seen?

Humans have been getting taller over the centuries, does that mean we are evolving? What about monkeys who have developed language skills? Does that mean we are not unique in our cognitive abilities? You have a tail bone yet you don't have a tale?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by saden1

Humans have been getting taller over the centuries, does that mean we are evolving. What about monkeys who have developed language skills? Does that mean we are not unique in our cognitive abilities. You have a tail bone yet you don't have a tale?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

Who cares about ducks. I wanna see a "monkey-fish-frog". YouTube - Mrs. Garrison teaching the evolution