Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener

dgack · 10-28-2007, 11:35 PM

Interesting. Apparently that *wasn't* true in 2005 (ypc dropped from 4.3 -> 4.1 -> 4.0 as carries increased), and in 2006 it was only true of carries 11-20, as carries 21-30 plummet to lower averages than the 1-10 mark. In 2004 it was somewhat inverted, with his ypc dropping badly from 4.6 to 3.3 and then recovering slightly to 3.6 in carries 21-30.

What's really odd is that his early Bronco years don't show that "rule" to be much more true (for example, in 2002, his 1-10 ypc was 6.4; 11-20 was 4.7; 21-30 was 3.4, so that's getting weaker as the game goes on) but then in 2003 his 1-10 ypc was 4.8; 11-20 ypc was 5.5; 21-30 ypc was an astounding 7.4).

So, I'm not sure that this proves much other than to say that it may take CP a while to get started. And that regardless of whether he gets stronger as the game goes on, looking at his career ypc splits in Denver, and here, it looks like his best years are long behind him, IMO.

In any event, my point in referencing that so-called phenomenon at all was to point out that Ladell needs more carries to establish himself in the run game, and improve his ypc. Clinton's getting plenty of action, so I don't think he really has any excuses in that department.

MTRedskinsFan · 10-28-2007, 11:53 PM

WTF! Why isn't it obvious to everyone that CP is messed up. Whether he's hurt, depressed, or just looking to get out of Washington there's no real umph there.

Two predictions:

1) When Portis leaves the Redskins and/or football behind he will be one of few players who will talk candidly about how Gibbs never established a rapport w/ the players. CP is a likeable guy who generally likes everybody, but he and Gibbs don't really have any chemistry. And then you stop and think, "Gibbs doesn't really have chemistry with anyone out there."

2. Saunders, if he finally gets to take over the offense, will prefer Betts to Portis (maybe not even keep CP). Portis knows this, and if he already senses that Gibbs is out for sure after this season then he'll likely be traded. If I were Portis I would be looking ahead and avoiding as much punishment as possible this season. It's smart and good business.

Bottom line: IMO the lack of production in our ground game has as much to do w/ the coaching situation (which is a fucking mess) as it does w/ injuries to the o-line.

Thoughts?

SmootSmack · 10-29-2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTRedskinsFan

WTF! Why isn't it obvious to everyone that CP is messed up. Whether he's hurt, depressed, or just looking to get out of Washington there's no real umph there.

Two predictions:

1) When Portis leaves the Redskins and/or football behind he will be one of few players who will talk candidly about how Gibbs never established a rapport w/ the players. CP is a likeable guy who generally likes everybody, but he and Gibbs don't really have any chemistry. And then you stop and think, "Gibbs doesn't really have chemistry with anyone out there."

2. Saunders, if he finally gets to take over the offense, will prefer Betts to Portis (maybe not even keep CP). Portis knows this, and if he already senses that Gibbs is out for sure after this season then he'll likely be traded. If I were Portis I would be looking ahead and avoiding as much punishment as possible this season. It's smart and good business.

Bottom line: IMO the lack of production in our ground game has as much to do w/ the coaching situation (which is a fucking mess) as it does w/ injuries to the o-line.

Thoughts?

Following last season, Portis gave a great interview on the John Thompson Show on SportsTalk 980 in DC and strongly defended Gibbs. He talked about how Gibbs has an open door policy and at meetings encourages people to voice their complaints.

The running game was fine when our backup had 1,000 yards rushing in half a season in 2006. And it was fine when Portis set the franchise rushing record and he and the defense carried the team to the playoffs in 2005

dgack · 10-29-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

The running game was fine when our backup had 1,000 yards rushing in half a season in 2006. And it was fine when Portis set the franchise rushing record and he and the defense carried the team to the playoffs in 2005

While true, Portis has been running harder and more to make the same yardage that he was racking up in Denver at a much more manageable workload.

I just don't think you can run a guy nearly 700 times in 2 years and expect him to not break down.

SmootSmack · 10-29-2007, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgack

While true, Portis has been running harder and more to make the same yardage that he was racking up in Denver at a much more manageable workload.

I just don't think you can run a guy nearly 700 times in 2 years and expect him to not break down.

Yeah my point was more to the allusion that coaching is responsible for the demise of our running game

SouperMeister · 10-29-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Yeah my point was more to the allusion that coaching is responsible for the demise of our running game

I'd say the O-line injuries are the number one factor there. We've had 1000 yard rushers in Gibbs' first three seasons back, but this season is the most beat up the O-line has been. Give us a healthy Randy Thomas and Jon Jansen, and I'm sure that Portis and Betts would both be very productive this season.

djnemo65 · 10-29-2007, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Following last season, Portis gave a great interview on the John Thompson Show on SportsTalk 980 in DC and strongly defended Gibbs. He talked about how Gibbs has an open door policy and at meetings encourages people to voice their complaints.

The running game was fine when our backup had 1,000 yards rushing in half a season in 2006. And it was fine when Portis set the franchise rushing record and he and the defense carried the team to the playoffs in 2005

Yeah, Portis also said in that interview, I believe, that other players ask him to go to Gibbs because of the strong rapport they have. I can't remember exactly but Portis said basically that people use him as a messenger with Gibbs.

So MTFan, I think you are off base with your prediction.

dgack · 10-29-2007, 12:00 AM

I don't buy that CP would avoid wear-and-tear now because it will ultimately hurt his value on the open market if he's seen as damaged goods. It's in his best interest to have a great year this year, in spite of any O-Line woes we may have.

Also, it just seems to go counter to the way he tries to play. I mean, if he'll jack himself up tackling a dude in a preseason game why would he dog it in an actually meaningful one?

No, I think he's just a guy who has never been built for the type and sheer volume of running we subjected him to when he got here. He was a Jaguar and we tried to use him like a bulldozer. Needless to say, the Jag is pretty effed up right now.

MTRedskinsFan · 10-29-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgack

I don't buy that CP would avoid wear-and-tear now because it will ultimately hurt his value on the open market if he's seen as damaged goods. It's in his best interest to have a great year this year, in spite of any O-Line woes we may have.

Also, it just seems to go counter to the way he tries to play. I mean, if he'll jack himself up tackling a dude in a preseason game why would he dog it in an actually meaningful one?

No, I think he's just a guy who has never been built for the type and sheer volume of running we subjected him to when he got here. He was a Jaguar and we tried to use him like a bulldozer. Needless to say, the Jag is pretty effed up right now.

I think CP will jack himself up in any situation when he believes in what he's doing and believes in the team. Again, I have to go back to the bigger picture. CP sees this mess from the inside out and probably says "WTF! This season ain't going no where." (literally, i bet he used those words). Then he realizes that his time here is limited w/ Saunders era just around the corner. I wouldn't want to take much punishment in this situation either, especially if I want to play football beyond my 20's. As to his value, I think CP is sort of beyond some of that shit. I think he wants to win more than he wants to get rich. Don't be surprised if he ends up w/ lesser, but key, role w/ a real contender and for a smaller contract.

SanFranSkinsFan · 10-29-2007, 12:15 AM

Portis. Portis. Portis. Betts can't break the big one and CP could use a healthy O-Line, which we just don't have. No Jansen, Thomas, no big holes to run through. Betts is fine, but he did what he did last year in the 2nd half on a 5-11 team. We're going to be 5-3 after we beat the Jets next week. And Portis is the better back.

jrocx69 · 10-29-2007, 12:53 AM

No one else has seen portis play half speed???? not just this season, but last season and the season before that, in exception to his first game against tampa. Has no one really seen this??? wow, maybe its not portis's fault....then you raise the question... why do we have him if the coaches run a certain style and we have this style runner? im stunned by alot of you backing portis... 8 year 50 mil running back??? and even this question to come up means he is not worth it period.

injury prone, hits holes (when has them) slow, always seems to fall down, absolutely no agility, quickness or bursting in 2nd level... when he does make to 2nd level... you know he going to fall down forward instead of making that last cut with a burst to create the big run or td run we all have been waiting for since his first rush here. we seriously need to find a RB soon that fits gibbs style. we need our own maurice jones drew or brian westbrook, someone who can play with much more of a burst and every touch you worry its a TD kind of player... 8 yr 50mil for this guy??? NO

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 10-29-2007, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrocx69

No one else has seen portis play half speed???? not just this season, but last season and the season before that, in exception to his first game against tampa. Has no one really seen this??? wow, maybe its not portis's fault....then you raise the question... why do we have him if the coaches run a certain style and we have this style runner? im stunned by alot of you backing portis... 8 year 50 mil running back??? and even this question to come up means he is not worth it period.

No, it was to point out: (a) how fickle many fans are; (b) that Betts is NOT more durable than Portis; (c) that Portis has been very productive in D.C.; and (d) to quiet the fans in D.C. that always want to bench the starter and start the guy riding the bench.

Redskin · 10-29-2007, 01:44 AM

it would be better id we had an O-line, right now it seems Portis is making something out of nothing better then betts is

Dirtbag59 · 10-29-2007, 01:46 AM

Betts hasn't even gotten a fair chance. Seriously power backs like him are comprable to diseal engines. Plus whatever happened to splitting the carries. Gibb's only said that was going to happen about 5 million times this offseason?

Personally I don't think Portis is healthy right now. And on top of that Betts needs a chance to hit his stride. We've done the Portis thing, it hasn't been working. As a result we need to see if Betts can do better. If he doesn't then fine, but at least give the guy a chance. Three carries a game is not fair, especially when the coach told him he was going to get a fair share of carrries this season. AND ESPECIALLY WHEN he signs a contract that is way below market value to stay with the team.

Look I love Portis. He plays his ass off and he seems like a fun guy to be around. But Gibbs is doing no one any favors by playing a guy thats as banged up as Portis. If anything his career is getting shorter everytime he takes a handoff from Campbell to the point where he might only have one good year left.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Portis is the new Brunell.

Bushead · 10-29-2007, 01:58 AM

Portis isn't worth his contract at all; That is my only issue with it all. I'm sure though that if the redskins had a healthy offensive line, everyone would be looking a lot better. Even then though, Portis isn't worth all that money. He should be used a lot more than that split back theory. Thats why you pay that guy big bucks. If you want to have the running backs split the carriers, get ladell and another runner who signs for a reasonable contract. You don't have your "superstar" sharing the load with someone else.

View Poll Results: Who is the better back, Portis or Betts?
Portis	71	83.53%
Betts	14	16.47%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

10-28-2007, 11:35 PM	#1
dgack The Starter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The ATX (formerly Balmer) Posts: 1,125	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener Interesting. Apparently that wasn't true in 2005 (ypc dropped from 4.3 -> 4.1 -> 4.0 as carries increased), and in 2006 it was only true of carries 11-20, as carries 21-30 plummet to lower averages than the 1-10 mark. In 2004 it was somewhat inverted, with his ypc dropping badly from 4.6 to 3.3 and then recovering slightly to 3.6 in carries 21-30. What's really odd is that his early Bronco years don't show that "rule" to be much more true (for example, in 2002, his 1-10 ypc was 6.4; 11-20 was 4.7; 21-30 was 3.4, so that's getting weaker as the game goes on) but then in 2003 his 1-10 ypc was 4.8; 11-20 ypc was 5.5; 21-30 ypc was an astounding 7.4). So, I'm not sure that this proves much other than to say that it may take CP a while to get started. And that regardless of whether he gets stronger as the game goes on, looking at his career ypc splits in Denver, and here, it looks like his best years are long behind him, IMO. In any event, my point in referencing that so-called phenomenon at all was to point out that Ladell needs more carries to establish himself in the run game, and improve his ypc. Clinton's getting plenty of action, so I don't think he really has any excuses in that department. __________________ "To bring a Sherm Lewis in to a Jim Zorn and whoever his offensive coordinator is, it's like bringing in another man to help teach you how to make better love to your wife or something." -- Tre Johnson

10-28-2007, 11:53 PM	#2
MTRedskinsFan Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 359	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener WTF! Why isn't it obvious to everyone that CP is messed up. Whether he's hurt, depressed, or just looking to get out of Washington there's no real umph there. Two predictions: 1) When Portis leaves the Redskins and/or football behind he will be one of few players who will talk candidly about how Gibbs never established a rapport w/ the players. CP is a likeable guy who generally likes everybody, but he and Gibbs don't really have any chemistry. And then you stop and think, "Gibbs doesn't really have chemistry with anyone out there." 2. Saunders, if he finally gets to take over the offense, will prefer Betts to Portis (maybe not even keep CP). Portis knows this, and if he already senses that Gibbs is out for sure after this season then he'll likely be traded. If I were Portis I would be looking ahead and avoiding as much punishment as possible this season. It's smart and good business. Bottom line: IMO the lack of production in our ground game has as much to do w/ the coaching situation (which is a fucking mess) as it does w/ injuries to the o-line. Thoughts?

10-29-2007, 12:00 AM	#8
dgack The Starter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The ATX (formerly Balmer) Posts: 1,125	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener I don't buy that CP would avoid wear-and-tear now because it will ultimately hurt his value on the open market if he's seen as damaged goods. It's in his best interest to have a great year this year, in spite of any O-Line woes we may have. Also, it just seems to go counter to the way he tries to play. I mean, if he'll jack himself up tackling a dude in a preseason game why would he dog it in an actually meaningful one? No, I think he's just a guy who has never been built for the type and sheer volume of running we subjected him to when he got here. He was a Jaguar and we tried to use him like a bulldozer. Needless to say, the Jag is pretty effed up right now. __________________ "To bring a Sherm Lewis in to a Jim Zorn and whoever his offensive coordinator is, it's like bringing in another man to help teach you how to make better love to your wife or something." -- Tre Johnson

10-29-2007, 12:15 AM	#10
SanFranSkinsFan Special Teams Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 102	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener Portis. Portis. Portis. Betts can't break the big one and CP could use a healthy O-Line, which we just don't have. No Jansen, Thomas, no big holes to run through. Betts is fine, but he did what he did last year in the 2nd half on a 5-11 team. We're going to be 5-3 after we beat the Jets next week. And Portis is the better back.

10-29-2007, 12:53 AM	#11
jrocx69 Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas Age: 44 Posts: 461	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener No one else has seen portis play half speed???? not just this season, but last season and the season before that, in exception to his first game against tampa. Has no one really seen this??? wow, maybe its not portis's fault....then you raise the question... why do we have him if the coaches run a certain style and we have this style runner? im stunned by alot of you backing portis... 8 year 50 mil running back??? and even this question to come up means he is not worth it period. injury prone, hits holes (when has them) slow, always seems to fall down, absolutely no agility, quickness or bursting in 2nd level... when he does make to 2nd level... you know he going to fall down forward instead of making that last cut with a burst to create the big run or td run we all have been waiting for since his first rush here. we seriously need to find a RB soon that fits gibbs style. we need our own maurice jones drew or brian westbrook, someone who can play with much more of a burst and every touch you worry its a TD kind of player... 8 yr 50mil for this guy??? NO

10-29-2007, 01:44 AM	#13
Redskin Impact Rookie Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: University of South Carolina Age: 36 Posts: 577	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener it would be better id we had an O-line, right now it seems Portis is making something out of nothing better then betts is __________________ University Of South Carolina '11 Go Cocks and Go Skins #21#RIP Sean Taylor a TRUE Redskin#21# <--Hey wheres my green approval rating?

10-29-2007, 01:46 AM	#14
Dirtbag59 Naega jeil jal naga Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Atlanta, Georgia From: Silver Spring, Maryland Age: 40 Posts: 14,750	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener Betts hasn't even gotten a fair chance. Seriously power backs like him are comprable to diseal engines. Plus whatever happened to splitting the carries. Gibb's only said that was going to happen about 5 million times this offseason? Personally I don't think Portis is healthy right now. And on top of that Betts needs a chance to hit his stride. We've done the Portis thing, it hasn't been working. As a result we need to see if Betts can do better. If he doesn't then fine, but at least give the guy a chance. Three carries a game is not fair, especially when the coach told him he was going to get a fair share of carrries this season. AND ESPECIALLY WHEN he signs a contract that is way below market value to stay with the team. Look I love Portis. He plays his ass off and he seems like a fun guy to be around. But Gibbs is doing no one any favors by playing a guy thats as banged up as Portis. If anything his career is getting shorter everytime he takes a handoff from Campbell to the point where he might only have one good year left. I said it before and I'll say it again. Portis is the new Brunell. __________________ "It's nice to be important, but its more important to be nice." - Scooter "I feel like Dirtbag has been slowly and methodically trolling the board for a month or so now." - FRPLG

10-29-2007, 01:58 AM	#15
Bushead Impact Rookie Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 782	Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener Portis isn't worth his contract at all; That is my only issue with it all. I'm sure though that if the redskins had a healthy offensive line, everyone would be looking a lot better. Even then though, Portis isn't worth all that money. He should be used a lot more than that split back theory. Thats why you pay that guy big bucks. If you want to have the running backs split the carriers, get ladell and another runner who signs for a reasonable contract. You don't have your "superstar" sharing the load with someone else.

Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener

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