Free Trade: Fight It, or Embrace It

[Daseal]

This is a sticky situation and it's such a delicate and intricate situation you really can't tell what would happen. Yes, China has made mistakes with the lead paint, etc. However, we are so far in debt to China they could call in their debt and wreck us. China has more or less paid for the war in Iraq, they've been buying up our debt by the shit ton. So taking our business away from China could yield terrible results too.

I definitely feel for the laborers. I've done manual labor for a while. From when I finished high school for a few years and now I work summers doing manual labor. I don't think the doom and gloom is quite there. While many of the large companies will pack up, there will be small businesses that it's not worth to leave the country due to initial costs, importing, shipping time, etc.

I really do hate the environmental standards in many of these foreign countries. Honestly, I'm not very happy with the united states precautions. I recently read an article about the Ganges river in India and the extent of it's pollution is disgusting. Some of it is from poor sanitation (dumping human waste from cities into a river is a bad idea), but a lot of it is from toxic chemicals.

For the sake of America's economy, it's necessary to outsource. As people have mentioned, the price of American labor would shoot the price of products up by a ton and I doubt wages would follow that. I feel like a lot of the manual labor that can leave, more or less has. Lots of manual labor will still be needed within the US. I see us going outside the country a lot more for software development and help desk (even more than now) as we go forward.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

As my previous posts indicate, I am pretty "pro-globalism." I don't think that there is much we can or should do to fight the effects of the global economy (e.g., manufacturing jobs leaving the U.S.). However, I do think the government ought to at the very least consider offering programs or incentives to encourage people in the manufacturing sector to seek and gain new skill sets.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

As my previous posts indicate, I am pretty "pro-globalism." I don't think that there is much we can or should do to fight the effects of the global economy (e.g., manufacturing jobs leaving the U.S.). However, I do think the government ought to at the very least consider offering programs or incentives to encourage people in the manufacturing sector to seek and gain new skill sets.

Perfect. To me this is a fantastic way of the government helping people. Instead of fixing the market they fix the workers. What's the saying?

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed for a lifetime."

This would such a better use of resources and time rather than artificially influencing a market in a way that long term won't work anyways.

I guess once again education is the magic bullet.

[dmek25]

everyone has posted excellent replies. this will be my final. put your self in these peoples shoes. most are in the 40-50 age group. alot have 20 years experience at their jobs. most are gearing up towards retirement. now the place of work closes, and ships their jobs over seas. how do you think they feel? think they really want to pack up, and head towards a new job? i highly doubt it. as for frplg, would you be that easy to dismiss manufacturing jobs if it hit closer to home. lets say it was your dad, or brother? the idea behind free trade is a good one, the execution of it is horrible. the united states will lose a whole generation of workers, because of age, and skill level. the kids coming up should be OK, its the middle age sect that is really going to struggle. its great that most on this board have professional skills. this is a moot point to them.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by dmek25

everyone has posted excellent replies. this will be my final. put your self in these peoples shoes. most are in the 40-50 age group. alot have 20 years experience at their jobs. most are gearing up towards retirement. now the place of work closes, and ships their jobs over seas. how do you think they feel? think they really want to pack up, and head towards a new job? i highly doubt it. as for frplg, would you be that easy to dismiss manufacturing jobs if it hit closer to home. lets say it was your dad, or brother? the idea behind free trade is a good one, the execution of it is horrible. the united states will lose a whole generation of workers, because of age, and skill level. the kids coming up should be OK, its the middle age sect that is really going to struggle. its great that most on this board have professional skills. this is a moot point to them.

I consider these individuals the casualties of the "US's adaptive economy" and the global free market competition. While I oppose creating incentives for non-work or rewarding the failure to adapt, I also believe that a significant percent of unemployed or working poor are in situtations that resulted from economic changes beyond their control. As a result, individuals and families with limited means attempting to operate within the system suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them. Yes, of course, we can all say "they should have prepared for change" with a sort of self satisfaction. In reality, however, humans are creatures of habit and few people can really spend their lives "ready to adapt".

As with any casualty of war (and the global economy is a war of sorts), the society must protect those who were injured while fighting the good fight. These same people helped create national wealth by providing a stable work force for a significant period of time. If we cannot find a way to maintain competition and our innovative economy while protecting those who accepted the precept that hard work = success, then all to soon the US workforce will feel betrayed and we will lose our competive advantage.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I consider these individuals the casualties of the "US's adaptive economy" and the global free market competition. While I oppose creating incentives for non-work or rewarding the failure to adapt, I also believe that a significant percent of unemployed or working poor are in situtations that resulted from economic changes beyond their control. As a result, individuals and families with limited means attempting to operate within the system suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them. Yes, of course, we can all say "they should have prepared for change" with a sort of self satisfaction. In reality, however, humans are creatures of habit and few people can really spend their lives "ready to adapt".

As with any casualty of war (and the global economy is a war of sorts), the society must protect those who were injured while fighting the good fight. These same people helped create national wealth by providing a stable work force for a significant period of time. If we cannot find a way to maintain competition and our innovative economy while protecting those who accepted the precept that hard work = success, then all to soon the US workforce will feel betrayed and we will lose our competive advantage.

Tremendous post. The analogy to casualties of war is one I hadn't thought of, but very apt.

The "cause" has to go on, but we can certainly take care of our wounded. Education and training would be a great way to help those hurt by globalization, and one that would be a wise financial investment for the country in the long run.

[skinsguy]

Let's not judge people for wanting to work in textile mills. I realize some of you guys probably look down on the American factory worker, but there are/were those who truly enjoyed those jobs. Dad loved his job at Fieldcrest as a loom tech. And, he made just as much...if not more doing that than what some of us college educated people did/do on their jobs. In fact, he made enough to allow my mom to stay home and raise me and my brothers. We were not rich by any stretch, but we were not poor either.

Someone mentioned inflation being sky high if these people had kept their jobs. Well guess what? Inflation is going sky high as it is. The price of gasoline has double and tripled in the last couple of years, which also has affected the prices on everything else. Yet, we still just get 3% raise which is eaten up (and then some) by the rising cost of company insurance and having to contribute more to retirement because the company is matching less.

Yeah, things sure look rosey right now!

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Let's not judge people for wanting to work in textile mills. I realize some of you guys probably look down on the American factory worker, but there are/were those who truly enjoyed those jobs. Dad loved his job at Fieldcrest as a loom tech. And, he made just as much...if not more doing that than what some of us college educated people did/do on their jobs. In fact, he made enough to allow my mom to stay home and raise me and my brothers. We were not rich by any stretch, but we were not poor either.

Someone mentioned inflation being sky high if these people had kept their jobs. Well guess what? Inflation is going sky high as it is. The price of gasoline has double and tripled in the last couple of years, which also has affected the prices on everything else. Yet, we still just get 3% raise which is eaten up (and then some) by the rising cost of company insurance and having to contribute more to retirement because the company is matching less.

Yeah, things sure look rosey right now!

Even with energy and food prices going through the roof, inflation is still below the historical average. The numbers don't lie.

The Consumer Price Index is consistently at 3% or below, with only the occasional blip above that. If we restricted trade, you'd see inflation like the 1970s all over again.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Let's not judge people for wanting to work in textile mills. I realize some of you guys probably look down on the American factory worker, but there are/were those who truly enjoyed those jobs. Dad loved his job at Fieldcrest as a loom tech. And, he made just as much...if not more doing that than what some of us college educated people did/do on their jobs. In fact, he made enough to allow my mom to stay home and raise me and my brothers. We were not rich by any stretch, but we were not poor either.

Someone mentioned inflation being sky high if these people had kept their jobs. Well guess what? Inflation is going sky high as it is. The price of gasoline has double and tripled in the last couple of years, which also has affected the prices on everything else. Yet, we still just get 3% raise which is eaten up (and then some) by the rising cost of company insurance and having to contribute more to retirement because the company is matching less.

Yeah, things sure look rosey right now!

I don't think anyone is looking down on factory workers. In fact, I think you'll find that most, if not all, of us have a great deal of admiration and sympathy for factory workers. That some of us believe that certain jobs aren't sustainable in the U.S. is not a statement of belief about any workers, it is a statement of belief about the realities of the new global economy.

I think a fundamental problem with our country is that we expect the government to be able to "fix" just about everything. Anytime something goes wrong, we blame the government. We consume energy at an astronomical rate by driving SUVs, living in the suburbs and commuting 2 hours per day, keeping our thermostats at 78 degrees in the dead of winter, etc. and yet we complain to the government about the cost of oil. We fill our bodies with all sorts of toxins, live sedentary lifetsyles, smoke cigarettes, fail to take preventative steps to ward of illness, etc. and complain about the cost of health care. We want buy the cheapest goods regardless of where or how they are manufactured and yet we don't understand why U.S. companies are shipping jobs abroad. We complain about all sorts of things when the blame for many of our woes lies squarely on our own backs.

That's not to say our government should do nothing and has no place in regulating the market, corporations, etc., but we need to stop eating our cake and then complaining about cake shortages.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I don't think anyone is looking down on factory workers. In fact, I think you'll find that most, if not all, of us have a great deal of admiration and sympathy for factory workers. That some of us believe that certain jobs aren't sustainable in the U.S. is not a statement of belief about any workers, it is a statement of belief about the realities of the new global economy.

I think a fundamental problem with our country is that we expect the government to be able to "fix" just about everything. Anytime something goes wrong, we blame the government. We consume energy at an astronomical rate by driving SUVs, living in the suburbs and commuting 2 hours per day, keeping our thermostats at 78 degrees in the dead of winter, etc. and yet we complain to the government about the cost of oil. We fill our bodies with all sorts of toxins, live sedentary lifetsyles, smoke cigarettes, fail to take preventative steps to ward of illness, etc. and complain about the cost of health care. We want buy the cheapest goods regardless of where or how they are manufactured and yet we don't understand why U.S. companies are shipping jobs abroad. We complain about all sorts of things when the blame for many of our woes lies squarely on our own backs.

That's not to say our government should do nothing and has no place in regulating the market, corporations, etc., but we need to stop eating our cake and then complaining about cake shortages.

You are my hero.

I would add this about what we expect from our government. We expect our government to make everything "fair". I know it is cliche but realistically life isn't fair. The sooner people realize this the sooner they will realize that they need to take their own lives into their own hands. I may love my job but if I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and know my job has a good chance of not being around in 5 or 10 years then it is my responsibility to my family to account for that. There are too many people in this world who take control of their lives and are there own pilot. They don't rely on anyone else to give them anything or put them in a better situation. They make it happen. Before they need to. These are the people who "kill" the middle class. They "kill" it because they are adavancing themselves. They may never be millionaires but they make 6 figures a year and live nice comfortable lives. That is the new middle class. But I think too many of us look at these people as "rich". Hell our tax system treates them as rich but they aren't. I feel badly for those who missed the boat but most of them need to look in the mirror a little more.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I don't think anyone is looking down on factory workers. In fact, I think you'll find that most, if not all, of us have a great deal of admiration and sympathy for factory workers. That some of us believe that certain jobs aren't sustainable in the U.S. is not a statement of belief about any workers, it is a statement of belief about the realities of the new global economy.

I think a fundamental problem with our country is that we expect the government to be able to "fix" just about everything. Anytime something goes wrong, we blame the government. We consume energy at an astronomical rate by driving SUVs, living in the suburbs and commuting 2 hours per day, keeping our thermostats at 78 degrees in the dead of winter, etc. and yet we complain to the government about the cost of oil. We fill our bodies with all sorts of toxins, live sedentary lifetsyles, smoke cigarettes, fail to take preventative steps to ward of illness, etc. and complain about the cost of health care. We want buy the cheapest goods regardless of where or how they are manufactured and yet we don't understand why U.S. companies are shipping jobs abroad. We complain about all sorts of things when the blame for many of our woes lies squarely on our own backs.

That's not to say our government should do nothing and has no place in regulating the market, corporations, etc., but we need to stop eating our cake and then complaining about cake shortages.

Well said.

Of course, if we run out of cake - we can always have pie.

[JoeRedskin]

I haven't commented on this thread yet b/c I feel somewhat conflicted. My job security is high and, through it, I have an economic freedom that is enviable to many. As long as do nothing illegal or unethical, I am pretty much unfireable. With that kind of security, commenting on "big picture" and macro-economics seems, to me, somewhat high-handed.

With that said, I add my voice to the SGG and Schneed - Globalism is good b/c, ultimately it is about competition. While short term set backs are unfortunate and there are ALWAYS some who simply cannot, b/c of age, kids, education, or other circumstances, adequately compete when the paradigm shifts. For those, IMO, the US owes some protection through reeducation where possible, reemployment in an Alphabet program (i.e. some government work programs much like those of the depression).

NAFTA was ground breaking legislation that will ultimately reward the US because, IMO, the American worker is one of the hardest workers of the industrialized world (in terms of hours per week worked and annual vacation time), the US will ultimately come out ahead in any true free trade system. Despite our relentless consumerism, we will win any competition based on work = reward, b/c that is our national heritage. For generations, people have flocked to the US b/c, with a few obvious inefficiencies, the harder you work, the more innovative you are, the more likely you are to "succeed". As long as this paradigm is maintained, we have nothing to fear from globalization.

In addition, b/c we have been (and continue to be) a melting pot, the variety of influences in our society have created an adaptive economy. The countries now "exporting" cheap labor simply do not have the infrastructure to compete with us in any way except by providing mass unskilled labor. Similarly, the asian economies run by government supervised capitalism (i.e. Japan and its MITI) or that have firmly entrenched and historical caste based societies simply do not have the long term flexibility that the US does in world market.

The rule of law and a commitment to competition as the paradigm allow the US to maintain a competitive advantage over the semi-socialist economies of western europe, the labor intensive third world economies, and the autocratic caste based economies of east asia.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I haven't commented on this thread yet b/c I feel somewhat conflicted. My job security is high and, through it, I have an economic freedom that is enviable to many. As long as do nothing illegal or unethical, I am pretty much unfireable. With that kind of security, commenting on "big picture" and macro-economics seems, to me, somewhat high-handed.

With that said, I add my voice to the SGG and Schneed - Globalism is good b/c, ultimately it is about competition. While short term set backs are unfortunate and there are ALWAYS some who simply cannot, b/c of age, kids, education, or other circumstances, adequately compete when the paradigm shifts. For those, IMO, the US owes some protection through reeducation where possible, reemployment in an Alphabet program (i.e. some government work programs much like those of the depression).

NAFTA was ground breaking legislation that will ultimately reward the US. IMO, because the American worker is one of the hardest workers of the industrialized world (in terms of hours per week worked and annual vacation time), the US will ultimately come out ahead in any true free trade system. Despite our relentless consumerism, we will win any competition based on work = reward, b/c that is our national heritage. For generations, people have flocked to the US b/c, with a few obvious inefficiencies, the harder you work, the more innovative you are, the more likely you are to "succeed". As long as this paradigm is maintained, we have nothing to fear from globalization.

In addition, b/c we have been (and continue to be) a melting pot, the variety of influences in our society have created an adaptive economy. The countries now "exporting" cheap labor simply do not have either the infrastructure to compete with us in any way except by providing mass unskilled labor. Similarly, the asian economies run by government supervised capitalism (i.e. Japan and its MITI) or that have firmly entrenched and historical caste based societies simply do not have the long term flexibility that the US does in world market.

The rule of law and a commitment to competition as the paradigm allow the US to maintain a competitive advantage over the semi-socialist economies of western europe, the labor intensive third world economies, and the autocratic caste based economies of east asia.

You must be a public school teacher.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by firstdown

You must be a public school teacher.

Nope.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by firstdown

You must be a public school teacher.

I believe JR is an attorney, not sure what type though. JR?