Taxing the rich - what is the cutoff?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I find it ironic the same people against taxes are the same people for spending $4,000 a minute in Iraq.

Iraq is an investment in the long term future and safety of our beloved country.

Support the troops!

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I find it ironic the same people against taxes are the same people for spending $4,000 a minute in Iraq.

Incredibly shortsighted.

The only way this statement is at all valid is if the entire US Federal Budget consisted of spending in Iraq.

People can be for lower taxes and for the war, if they're also for reducing government spending elsewhere (social programs, etc.) to offset the difference.

Math is not that hard.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I find it ironic the same people against taxes are the same people for spending $4,000 a minute in Iraq.

The two have not a single thing to do with each other.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

The two have not a single thing to do with each other.

They do have something to do with each other. The feds can't spend without taxing, can they? So, if someone supports a particular initiative, they have to be willing to tax to pay for it.

Now, the fact that you may have different priorities (e.g., defense over social programs) is, I agree, a separate issue.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

They do have something to do with each other. The feds can't spend without taxing, can they? So, if someone supports a particular initiative, they have to be willing to tax to pay for it.

Now, the fact that you may have different priorities (e.g., defense over social programs) is, I agree, a separate issue.

First rule of fiscal responsibility is "don't spend more money than you have." This rule, however, does not apply to matters concerning national security. Instead of complaining about the cost of war what we should be doing is cutting worthless social programs. I wouldn't worry if I were you, the economy will pick and we'll pay for it when we pay for it. Right now, safety and spreading freedom is a priority. We'll definitely be better of in the long run.

Support the troops!

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

1) If you offer me and my wife a 250k income, I guarantee we can live comfortably in any city with our two boys. Some housing areas of certain cities may be off-limits, of course.

2) I agree with Slingin' Sammy: you can't keep taxing the well-to-do just because they have the money. {Pssst...sounds like someone likes the Fair Tax idea}

3) On the other hand, since they're are already hard-working, entrepreneurially spirited individuals, if you do tax them more they'll just work that much harder to make up the difference. It's a win-win situation.

I'm sure you could - most people could. The point is that it's a comfortable lifestyle, not an extravagant lifestyle. Bumping up the tax rate is not simply forcing these people right at the margin to cut back from three butlers to two. It's going to have an impact on something that, for the most part, they worked hard to achieve.

Now, on the flip side, the 2000 tax rates are doable. It's just not wise to think this is a well you can go back to too often.

That said, what is a reasonable cutoff these days? $500k?

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

I'm sure you could - most people could. The point is that it's a comfortable lifestyle, not an extravagant lifestyle. Bumping up the tax rate is not simply forcing these people right at the margin to cut back from three butlers to two. It's going to have an impact on something that, for the most part, they worked hard to achieve.

Now, on the flip side, the 2000 tax rates are doable. It's just not wise to think this is a well you can go back to too often.

That said, what is a reasonable cutoff these days? $500k?

Weird. I never said bumping up the tax rate was acceptable.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

Weird. I never said bumping up the tax rate was acceptable.

I didn't say you did. I was highlighting that $250k these days is "comfortable" in most places (as you stated), not "extravagant". The rest of my post was a general statement, not directed at you - I should have put an extra line or two in there to distinguish.

[That Guy]

500k is a much fairer cutoff.

250k is pretty easy with two working contractors in NoVA, and land and some of the job requirements just aren't cheap.

as far as CoLAs, the military has been using them forever, and i really don't hear complaints (most people love going to higher CoLAs, since it usually means more overall take home pay after everything is said and done). however, military CoLAs might not work so well with independent contractors, the unemployeed, those making etremely low pay in high cost areas, and those that would look to abuse the system by moving in or out of area (depending on specifics).

maybe if the CoLAs were handled at the payroll level based on business location, and customer location (ie, internet shipping based businesses without real overhead don't get a loop hole for re-locating to downtown NYC).

[That Guy]

we're not even paying for the war right now :/ normally when a war is ongoing, a war tax is collected to pay for it (which also leads to restraint, since no one likes higher taxes). because that would have made going into iraq very hard, bush & co. are passing a lot of this war's cost onto your children :/.


not ideal.

[Daseal]

Yes, That Guy. The war in Iraq is currently being paid for by China. All our debt is quickly being gobbled up by China and it will hurt us in the long run.

Iraq is an investment in the long term future and safety of our beloved country.

Support the troops!

I'm curious -- how was it an investment? What threat was there? Also, why is this a troop support issue. I have no issue with the troops at all. I come from a military family, in fact I have two family members that recently returned from Iraq along with many friends on their way over shortly. You can be totally against a war and support the troops. I bet a majority of the troops would rather not be in Iraq, but they do as their told.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread. But people want to complain about social programs trying to improve our country when our spending for wars and other efforts are making the debt go to an all-time high.

Schneed -- if my views are so short sighted, I am very interested to hear how the Iraq war will make money for the United States.

On a completely unrelated note. Did anyone get a piece of mail saying that your stimulus check would be sent out within 3-5 business days? What a waste of money that was.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Yes, That Guy. The war in Iraq is currently being paid for by China. All our debt is quickly being gobbled up by China and it will hurt us in the long run.


I'm curious -- how was it an investment? What threat was there? Also, why is this a troop support issue. I have no issue with the troops at all. I come from a military family, in fact I have two family members that recently returned from Iraq along with many friends on their way over shortly. You can be totally against a war and support the troops. I bet a majority of the troops would rather not be in Iraq, but they do as their told.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread. But people want to complain about social programs trying to improve our country when our spending for wars and other efforts are making the debt go to an all-time high.

Schneed -- if my views are so short sighted, I am very interested to hear how the Iraq war will make money for the United States.

On a completely unrelated note. Did anyone get a piece of mail saying that your stimulus check would be sent out within 3-5 business days? What a waste of money that was.

I'm not questioning your support for the troops but what you're advocating is retreat. We must accomplish the mission and return home with honor. Like my man McCain says, only a fool likes wars but we shouldn't leave Iraq without achieving our objectives. We must wipe out terrorist off the face of the earth by fighting them over there rather than over here. We have to stabilize Iraq and bring democracy to the middle east. We can't afford not to succeed. We have to succeeded even if it takes 100 years.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by saden1

I'm not questioning your support for the troops but what you're advocating is retreat. We must accomplish the mission and return home with honor. Like my man McCain says, only a fool likes wars but we shouldn't leave Iraq without achieving our objectives. We must wipe out terrorist off the face of the earth by fighting them over there rather than over here. We have to stabilize Iraq and bring democracy to the middle east. We can't afford not to succeed. We have to succeeded even if it takes 100 years.

saden, have you started drinking the kool aid? staying in Iraq for 100 years shouldn't even be an option. and im interested to hear what people think would happen, if we do pull out? and the comment about wiping terrorists off the face of the earth is down right brutal. i don't care if we fight the gazillion years in Iraq, there will always be terrorists. i think you have done a 180 degree turn in your thinking

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by dmek25

saden, have you started drinking the kool aid? staying in Iraq for 100 years shouldn't even be an option. and im interested to hear what people think would happen, if we do pull out? and the comment about wiping terrorists off the face of the earth is down right brutal. i don't care if we fight the gazillion years in Iraq, there will always be terrorists. i think you have done a 180 degree turn in your thinking

I get the feeling saden was being playful, but I'm not. I agree with what he wrote, even if he doesn't.

Those who want to pull out of Iraq immediately think way too selfishly about the interests of the United States. Picture this: You hate your American government, it's a dictatorship and oppressive. A foreign military storms into the United States, defeats our military handily to the point where our own troops are deserting the fight, marches into our capital, overthrows our government, destroys our infrastucture so we have little electicity and poor quality drinking water, disrupts our security forces and police from doing their jobs. Got that picture in your head?

Now, imagine that even though you didn't like your American government that was just overthrown, you're more fearful now for your family's safety because there is no American police force, no American military, only this foreign force present in your streets. There's no order, they don't answer to you or your government, and you're not clear what the laws are and what the consequences are for certain actions. You're more fearful for you family's life than when your oppressive American government was in control. You need electricity, and there's nobody to complain to.

So a group of Americans, some loyal to the American regime that was just forced out, and some just flat out tired of the deplorable conditions, decide to take up arms against these foreign invaders. Fighting breaks out in streets in your neighborhood. Bombs go off at the supermarket, where you're simply trying to buy food for your family. The American uprising grows stronger, causing more fighting, and fighters from Canada and Mexico begin coming across the border to fight the foreign regime, many of whom shared radical religious beliefs with the former American dictator. The fight grows stronger and more intense.

You are scared, you are tired, and you're clamoring for life to return to normal. You recognize that the American uprising, this American insurgency, is not equipped to take on this powerful foreign regime, so they hide, and they plant bombs, but they never fight the foreign regime in a full-on attack. The foreign regime is forcing them to operate covertly. The foreign regime sends in a surge of troops, and helps to quell some of the violence, and things begin getting better, and your streets start to feel safer, and you start to feel hopeful that the worst is behind you.

Now, imagine that with this uprising in place, imagine that this foreign regime just leaves. You have no local police force worth a darn, no American military capable of maintaining security. How do you feel now? How do you feel as the radical American fighters come out of the woodwork, no longer suppressed by the presence of a powerful foreign military. They fight your pathetic excuse for an American military and kill what little police you have.

Are you scared? Is your life any better?

You may find fault with the reasons we went to Iraq, and I can't say I can disagree with that. And you may question the logic behind trying to fight terrorists in this manner, and I can't say I have much of an argument.

But the fact is we fucked up the lives of many, many innocent Iraqis. We CANNOT abandon them. We owe it to them to restore order. From a moral standpoint, I have a major problem with the United States leaving the Iraqi people in a worse situation than the one they had with Saddam in charge. We must see to it that they achieve a democratic society with the ability to at least maintain some semblance of security, at least as much as is possible in today's Middle East.

Morally, we owe them that much. On top of it, we stand to gain a permanent strategic military presence in the middle of that region. From a strategic defense standpoint against ICBMs and other long-range nuclear weapons, it is important to have a base established there capable of shooting down any Iranian ICBMs before they can threaten Europe, Asia, Israel, or the United States.

But nevermind the military strategy. From a moral standpoint, I cannot stomach abandoning the Iraqi people after all we've done to them.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I get the feeling saden was being playful, but I'm not. I agree with what he wrote, even if he doesn't.

Those who want to pull out of Iraq immediately think way too selfishly about the interests of the United States. Picture this: You hate your American government, it's a dictatorship and oppressive. A foreign military storms into the United States, defeats our military handily to the point where our own troops are deserting the fight, marches into our capital, overthrows our government, destroys our infrastucture so we have little electicity and poor quality drinking water, disrupts our security forces and police from doing their jobs. Got that picture in your head?

Now, imagine that even though you didn't like your American government that was just overthrown, you're more fearful now for your family's safety because there is no American police force, no American military, only this foreign force present in your streets. There's no order, they don't answer to you or your government, and you're not clear what the laws are and what the consequences are for certain actions. You're more fearful for you family's life than when your oppressive American government was in control. You need electricity, and there's nobody to complain to.

So a group of Americans, some loyal to the American regime that was just forced out, and some just flat out tired of the deplorable conditions, decide to take up arms against these foreign invaders. Fighting breaks out in streets in your neighborhood. Bombs go off at the supermarket, where you're simply trying to buy food for your family. The American uprising grows stronger, causing more fighting, and fighters from Canada and Mexico begin coming across the border to fight the foreign regime, many of whom shared radical religious beliefs with the former American dictator. The fight grows stronger and more intense.

You are scared, you are tired, and you're clamoring for life to return to normal. You recognize that the American uprising, this American insurgency, is not equipped to take on this powerful foreign regime, so they hide, and they plant bombs, but they never fight the foreign regime in a full-on attack. The foreign regime is forcing them to operate covertly. The foreign regime sends in a surge of troops, and helps to quell some of the violence, and things begin getting better, and your streets start to feel safer, and you start to feel hopeful that the worst is behind you.

Now, imagine that with this uprising in place, imagine that this foreign regime just leaves. You have no local police force worth a darn, no American military capable of maintaining security. How do you feel now? How do you feel as the radical American fighters come out of the woodwork, no longer suppressed by the presence of a powerful foreign military. They fight your pathetic excuse for an American military and kill what little police you have.

Are you scared? Is your life any better?

You may find fault with the reasons we went to Iraq, and I can't say I can disagree with that. And you may question the logic behind trying to fight terrorists in this manner, and I can't say I have much of an argument.

But the fact is we fucked up the lives of many, many innocent Iraqis. We CANNOT abandon them. We owe it to them to restore order. From a moral standpoint, I have a major problem with the United States leaving the Iraqi people in a worse situation than the one they had with Saddam in charge. We must see to it that they achieve a democratic society with the ability to at least maintain some semblance of security, at least as much as is possible in today's Middle East.

Morally, we owe them that much. On top of it, we stand to gain a permanent strategic military presence in the middle of that region. From a strategic defense standpoint against ICBMs and other long-range nuclear weapons, it is important to have a base established there capable of shooting down any Iranian ICBMs before they can threaten Europe, Asia, Israel, or the United States.

But nevermind the military strategy. From a moral standpoint, I cannot stomach abandoning the Iraqi people after all we've done to them.

gotta say i agree with that pretty strongly.