Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I don't agree with TTE at all on this deal but this statement is what kills me about the liberal mindset on this. You don't get that a fair majority of the population doesn't see this change as progress at all. They see it as rotting. Essentially the opposite of progress. That's a major disconnect in the discussion.

Whether the population as a whole sees it as progress is immaterial to whether it's progress. I get that people are upset but I don't believe it's a majority anymore. Homosexuality use to be punishable by death, now it is not. It use to be something to be feared/rejected and now it isn't as feared/rejected. This is progress whether you and others see it as such or not.

Advocates for gay rights need to change people's attitude towards gays and the court system is one of many tools to exert social influence. We aren't there yet but we will be in a decade or so and people's attitudes will change...they have to in order to cope with the stress of living in a society where gays are in your face.

[BleedBurgundy]

I think we all just want to shape the world in which we live to some extent. Some of us have feelings/beliefs that compel us to say this or that should not be allowed, others extol an "anything but violence goes" philosophy. It's pretty clearly a prejudice, which I'm using in the sense of "a preconceived judgment or opinion," to say that homosexuality is wrong. That said, all prejudices aren't necessarily incorrect or built upon ignorance. I believe people hold this prejudice because our society has largely taught since it's inception that these alternative lifestyles are wrong. That view point has helped shape our culture to this point in time. Revoking that view likewise changes the culture of our society going forward and not in a way in which the current majority seems to desire. I don't think it's as simple as "what two people do in their bedroom is their business" because there are collateral effects which impede on the wishes of most Americans, i.e. the inclusion of homosexuality in elementary education.

I think the crux of the debate is does a society have a right to establish social guidelines and thus enforce said guidelines on a dissenting minority? That's a hell of a hard argument to make from a logical standpoint, much easier from an emotional one. In the end, the point is moot, people can object all they want but evidence shows this fight is just about over...

just my

[saden1]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I think we all just want to shape the world in which we live to some extent. Some of us have feelings/beliefs that compel us to say this or that should not be allowed, others extol an "anything but violence goes" philosophy. It's pretty clearly a prejudice, which I'm using in the sense of "a preconceived judgment or opinion," to say that homosexuality is wrong. That said, all prejudices aren't necessarily incorrect or built upon ignorance. I believe people hold this prejudice because our society has largely taught since it's inception that these alternative lifestyles are wrong. That view point has helped shape our culture to this point in time. Revoking that view likewise changes the culture of our society going forward and not in a way in which the current majority seems to desire. I don't think it's as simple as "what two people do in their bedroom is their business" because there are collateral effects which impede on the wishes of most Americans, i.e. the inclusion of homosexuality in elementary education.

I think the crux of the debate is does a society have a right to establish social guidelines and thus enforce said guidelines on a dissenting minority? That's a hell of a hard argument to make from a logical standpoint, much easier from an emotional one. In the end, the point is moot, people can object all they want but evidence shows this fight is just about over...

just my

I sense a transformation in your take on the whole thing since this thread started. Is that a fair assessment?

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by saden1

I sense a transformation in your take on the whole thing since this thread started. Is that a fair assessment?

Meh... I still feel the way I feel about it. I don't like it, but at some point you have to recognize the direction things are heading in and move forward. You can't be for personal freedom and support the suppression of the rights of others, without being a colossal hypocrite. Personally, I think acceptance and glorification of the gay lifestyle is something I wouldn't want around my kids (don't have any yet) and that I find extremely distasteful, but you have to adapt. C'est la vie.

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Meh... I still feel the way I feel about it. I don't like it, but at some point you have to recognize the direction things are heading in and move forward. You can't be for personal freedom and support the suppression of the rights of others, without being a colossal hypocrite. Personally, I think acceptance and glorification of the gay lifestyle is something I wouldn't want around my kids (don't have any yet) and that I find extremely distasteful, but you have to adapt. C'est la vie.

Define glorification? I mean it's not like the gays are gonna come after your future children and recruit them. I'll put myself out there and say I don't really identify as anything, I love who I love. p.s. I'm female just in case you forgot. But I suppose a perv is a perv. Whatevs.

But I'm going to go there and say that this is basically like civil rights via 1950s. I'm sure white people back in the day didn't want their children catching the Negro bug either. Lawdy Lawdy, if your precious white children was exposed to a black person back in the day, who knew what kinda evil they'd put in their heads.

Oppression is oppression no matter which group is being oppressed. And people can hide behind their bibles and their morals and their laws of nature, but at the end of the day you either hole up out in your cabin out in the wilderness and homeschool your kids to shelter them from the evils of society or hold on tight and get ready for the ride.

If the world is going to hell in a handbasket, there's nothing making you stay. That wasn't directed at you BB. Just a general statement.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave;717873[B

]Define glorification? I mean it's not like the gays are gonna come after your future children and recruit them.[/B] I'll put myself out there and say I don't really identify as anything, I love who I love. p.s. I'm female just in case you forgot. But I suppose a perv is a perv. Whatevs.

But I'm going to go there and say that this is basically like civil rights via 1950s. I'm sure white people back in the day didn't want their children catching the Negro bug either. Lawdy Lawdy, if your precious white children was exposed to a black person back in the day, who knew what kinda evil they'd put in their heads.

Oppression is oppression no matter which group is being oppressed. And people can hide behind their bibles and their morals and their laws of nature, but at the end of the day you either hole up out in your cabin out in the wilderness and homeschool your kids to shelter them from the evils of society or hold on tight and get ready for the ride.

If the world is going to hell in a handbasket, there's nothing making you stay. That wasn't directed at you BB. Just a general statement.

Yeah, I know. I expected such a response. When I say glorification, what I mean is you can't turn on the tv without some obviously gay dude prancing around, setting a miserable example of how a man is supposed to act. I know, I know, if you don't like it, turn it off. The point is if you ask me should this be, I would say no, it should not. But... rationally you have to accept the world as it is.

And to Matty's point... teaching acceptance is exactly what I plan to do, but I'd really prefer it if I didn't have to worry about them seeing it before I felt they were ready. Put it this way, I don't personally care for those that use drugs either, but I feel it's their right to do so. I still don't want anyone smoking a blunt or shooting heroine in front of my kids. Sure, i can explain to them what drugs are and what addiction is, but there are some realities that can wait.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I think we all just want to shape the world in which we live to some extent. Some of us have feelings/beliefs that compel us to say this or that should not be allowed, others extol an "anything but violence goes" philosophy. It's pretty clearly a prejudice, which I'm using in the sense of "a preconceived judgment or opinion," to say that homosexuality is wrong. That said, all prejudices aren't necessarily incorrect or built upon ignorance. I believe people hold this prejudice because our society has largely taught since it's inception that these alternative lifestyles are wrong. That view point has helped shape our culture to this point in time. Revoking that view likewise changes the culture of our society going forward and not in a way in which the current majority seems to desire. I don't think it's as simple as "what two people do in their bedroom is their business" because there are collateral effects which impede on the wishes of most Americans, i.e. the inclusion of homosexuality in elementary education.

I think the crux of the debate is does a society have a right to establish social guidelines and thus enforce said guidelines on a dissenting minority? That's a hell of a hard argument to make from a logical standpoint, much easier from an emotional one. In the end, the point is moot, people can object all they want but evidence shows this fight is just about over...

just my

This is a good post, but I will never understand those who would shelter their kids from being educated about the world -- all parts of it, good and bad -- out of fear they may some day grow up to make their own decisions and be influenced by what they learned.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

This is a good post, but I will never understand those who would shelter their kids from being educated about the world -- all parts of it, good and bad -- out of fear they may some day grow up to make their own decisions and be influenced by what they learned.

I think the problem most parents have is that they don't want their children taught about controversial subjects by someone other than them, especially for the introduction to the topic (sex ed. and things that may counter a family's religous teaching). The other issue is when subjects are taught in public school, obviously the sex ed for 5 yr. olds is ridiculous, same as HS juniors/seniors not being made aware of contraception.

Having a 17 yr. old and being involved in coaching from 6yrs old. into HS, I can tell you one thing is for sure. Normal, rational folks from all walks of life can quickly go completely bat-shit crazy over something to do with their kids.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I think the problem most parents have is that they don't want their children taught about controversial subjects by someone other than them, especially for the introduction to the topic (sex ed. and things that may counter a family's religous teaching). The other issue is when subjects are taught in public school, obviously the sex ed for 5 yr. olds is ridiculous, same as HS juniors/seniors not being made aware of contraception.

Having a 17 yr. old and being involved in coaching from 6yrs old. into HS, I can tell you one thing is for sure. Normal, rational folks from all walks of life can quickly go completely bat-shit crazy over something to do with their kids.

a lot of parents don't talk about nearly ANYTHING societal or cultural with their kids

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

This is a good post, but I will never understand those who would shelter their kids from being educated about the world -- all parts of it, good and bad -- out of fear they may some day grow up to make their own decisions and be influenced by what they learned.

Fear feeds the ignorance, and vice versa.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

This is a good post, but I will never understand those who would shelter their kids from being educated about the world -- all parts of it, good and bad -- out of fear they may some day grow up to make their own decisions and be influenced by what they learned.

It's not about sheltering kids from "ever" receiving the education or actually being delusional enough to think they're not going to find out about it. It IS about believing that individual families have the right to decide how/when the child is introduced to such realities. I don't personally believe that a kid learns about homosexuality = a kid decides to be gay. So, Matty's comment in response to your post is a typical misread of the situation and pretty common overreaction. I do find it entertaining (and disappointing) that those most up in arms about the rights of those they agree with are the first to resort to name calling and sarcasm instead of rational discussion, on both sides. I support everyone else's right to freedom up until the second that it infringes upon my own. I don't believe that to be unreasonable, it's just the truth.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

It's not about sheltering kids from "ever" receiving the education or actually being delusional enough to think they're not going to find out about it. It IS about believing that individual families have the right to decide how/when the child is introduced to such realities. I don't personally believe that a kid learns about homosexuality = a kid decides to be gay. So, Matty's comment in response to your post is a typical misread of the situation and pretty common overreaction. I do find it entertaining (and disappointing) that those most up in arms about the rights of those they agree with are the first to resort to name calling and sarcasm instead of rational discussion, on both sides. I support everyone else's right to freedom up until the second that it infringes upon my own. I don't believe that to be unreasonable, it's just the truth.

You don't think that fear and ignorance is part of the equation here when talking about those on the extreme side against gay marriage?

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

You don't think that fear and ignorance is part of the equation here when talking about those on the extreme side against gay marriage?

Oh, I misunderstood you, thought you were referring to me for some reason... no doubt ignorance and fear play a big role for extremists of any type, not just pertaining to this issue.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

It's not about sheltering kids from "ever" receiving the education or actually being delusional enough to think they're not going to find out about it. It IS about believing that individual families have the right to decide how/when the child is introduced to such realities. I don't personally believe that a kid learns about homosexuality = a kid decides to be gay. So, Matty's comment in response to your post is a typical misread of the situation and pretty common overreaction. I do find it entertaining (and disappointing) that those most up in arms about the rights of those they agree with are the first to resort to name calling and sarcasm instead of rational discussion, on both sides. I support everyone else's right to freedom up until the second that it infringes upon my own. I don't believe that to be unreasonable, it's just the truth.

I agree that individual families have the right to decide for themselves. I would (almost) never want to decide for others, which is why I support gay marriage. I just don't understand those families that would shelter their kids from learning about reality.

To me, it's all about teaching critical thinking above all else. If your child is learning math, then they're capable of learning critical thinking.

But, it seems most parents today are less concerned about giving their children the tools to think critically -- so they can arrive at their own decisions (which will inevitably happen anyways) -- and are more concerned with influencing their decisions and opinions. It's a model for failure IMO.

[MTK]

Teaching kids acceptance is so overrated anyway