57 Mocks Munched! Suh Consensus No. 1, Bradford for Skins

[Zorn on the 4th of July]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Superstar QB play is the common thread linking the great teams of the past 10 years, and really through most of the history of the league.

Very thought-provoking post, but remember that great QB play is different than hot QB draft prospects, and improving QB play doesn't necessarily involve the draft or even the QB himself.

Gentlemen, your conference-winning quarterbacks of the last ten years (and NFL draft round):

John Elway (1)
Chris Chandler (3)
Kurt Warner (undrafted)
Steve McNair (1)
Trent Dilfer (1)
Kerry Collins (1)
Tom Brady (6)
Brad Johnson (9)
Rich Gannon (4)
Jake Delhomme (undrafted)
Donovan McNabb (1)
Ben Roethlisberger (1)
Matt Hasslebeck (6)
Peyton Manning (1)
Rex Grossman (1)
Eli Manning (1)

Admittedly, there are more 1st round picks on this list than I anticipated when I started the post, but amongst those 16 quarterbacks: 7 QBs were not selected in the first round, Grossman and Dilfer are amongst the 1st round picks (whose teams won their conferences in spite of the QB's play), and I think the jury is still out on ol' Eli Manning.

As far as the teams that are amongst the tops THIS year (Colts, Chargers, Saints, and Vikings), only the Saints and Colts are overachieving due to their QBs. The Chargers, and (especially) the Vikings are loaded with offensive weapons. Jason Campbell would be in the playoffs if he was throwing to Sidney Rice and Percy Harvin and handing off to Adrian Peterson.

You're absolutely right that we don't have to (nor should we) go crazy drafting O-linemen. But the QB prospects coming out are shaky, what with Bradford's suspect shoulder and Clausen . . . well, anybody who is the "leader" of a team that DECLINES A LOCKED-IN BOWL BID obviously doesn't have the love for football that I'd require of my players. In fact, Notre Dame has lost any remaining respect I ever had for them. Who STOPS playing football? "Stops" isn't the right word. "Quits." That's what I'm looking for. "Fighting Irish." Yeah, right. I digress.

I also don't buy 2010 as a rebuilding year for the Redskins. We've got average or above-average performers at every skill position and outstanding ATHLETES on all sides of the ball. All of our difficult non-conference games are at home (Indy, Green Bay, and Minnesota), and our away non-conference schedule is loaded with some of the worst teams in the league. Our most difficult non-conference road game is vs. Tennessee. The NFL schedule makers are dying for the Redskins to be relevant again.

The single biggest improvement to the team has already been accomplished with the removal of Jim Zorn and the ownership-induced dysfunction in the front office. Now that an experienced head coach is in place, more raw athletic ability will be converted into higher performance. I agree that high-level QB play is critical to improvement, but the QB we have on the roster now gives the team the best chance to improve immediately, taking advantage of our favorable schedule while the gettin's good.

Assuming we make critical upgrades to the O-line (not necessarily through the draft), there's no reason why we can't compete for the NFC East title next season.

Do you think Doug Williams and Mark Rypien were "superstar" QBs?

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Zorn on the 4th of July

Very thought-provoking post, but remember that great QB play is different than hot QB draft prospects, and improving QB play doesn't necessarily involve the draft or even the QB himself.

Gentlemen, your conference-winning quarterbacks of the last ten years (and NFL draft round):

John Elway (1)
Chris Chandler (3)
Kurt Warner (undrafted)
Steve McNair (1)
Trent Dilfer (1)
Kerry Collins (1)
Tom Brady (6)
Brad Johnson (9)
Rich Gannon (4)
Jake Delhomme (undrafted)
Donovan McNabb (1)
Ben Roethlisberger (1)
Matt Hasslebeck (6)
Peyton Manning (1)
Rex Grossman (1)
Eli Manning (1)

Admittedly, there are more 1st round picks on this list than I anticipated when I started the post, but amongst those 16 quarterbacks: 7 QBs were not selected in the first round, Grossman and Dilfer are amongst the 1st round picks (whose teams won their conferences in spite of the QB's play), and I think the jury is still out on ol' Eli Manning.

As far as the teams that are amongst the tops THIS year (Colts, Chargers, Saints, and Vikings), only the Saints and Colts are overachieving due to their QBs. The Chargers, and (especially) the Vikings are loaded with offensive weapons. Jason Campbell would be in the playoffs if he was throwing to Sidney Rice and Percy Harvin and handing off to Adrian Peterson.

You're absolutely right that we don't have to (nor should we) go crazy drafting O-linemen. But the QB prospects coming out are shaky, what with Bradford's suspect shoulder and Clausen . . . well, anybody who is the "leader" of a team that DECLINES A LOCKED-IN BOWL BID obviously doesn't have the love for football that I'd require of my players. In fact, Notre Dame has lost any remaining respect I ever had for them. Who STOPS playing football? "Stops" isn't the right word. "Quits." That's what I'm looking for. "Fighting Irish." Yeah, right. I digress.

I also don't buy 2010 as a rebuilding year for the Redskins. We've got average or above-average performers at every skill position and outstanding ATHLETES on all sides of the ball. All of our difficult non-conference games are at home (Indy, Green Bay, and Minnesota), and our away non-conference schedule is loaded with some of the worst teams in the league. Our most difficult non-conference road game is vs. Tennessee. The NFL schedule makers are dying for the Redskins to be relevant again.

The single biggest improvement to the team has already been accomplished with the removal of Jim Zorn and the ownership-induced dysfunction in the front office. Now that an experienced head coach is in place, more raw athletic ability will be converted into higher performance. I agree that high-level QB play is critical to improvement, but the QB we have on the roster now gives the team the best chance to improve immediately, taking advantage of our favorable schedule while the gettin's good.

Assuming we make critical upgrades to the O-line (not necessarily through the draft), there's no reason why we can't compete for the NFC East title next season.

Do you think Doug Williams and Mark Rypien were "superstar" QBs?

Strong post. I would argue that the game has morphed into a passing game over the last few years to the point that we aren't going to see a Trent Dilfer in the Superbowl again, at least for a while.

But again, my argument was not that it's necessary to take a QB in the first round, but that it's necessary to have a legit star QB to win the Superbowl. This QB doesn't have to be a hall of famer, but he does have to play like one for that championship season. And I think with only a few exceptions your list corroborates this. Of the Superbowl winners of the last 10 years, the only QB's who were mediocre for that season (Dilfer and Johnson, and even Johnson went to the probowl I think) were playing on arguably the two greatest defenses of all time.

Moreover, I think drafting a QB high in the first round is historically the best way to get such a player. There are too many other factors that go into catching lightning in a bottle and having your undrafted backup Kurt Warner flourish, or you catfish wrastling journeyman Jake Delhome suddenly morph into a fearless gunslinger in time for the playoff run. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen a lot more than it does.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Moreover, I think drafting a QB high in the first round is historically the best way to get such a player. There are too many other factors that go into catching lightning in a bottle and having your undrafted backup Kurt Warner flourish, or you catfish wrastling journeyman Jake Delhome suddenly morph into a fearless gunslinger in time for the playoff run. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen a lot more than it does.

Well, the star QB in SB42 put up 17 points and lost to the pedistrian player, who was admittedly a first overall pick himself. But hardly established or even a sure thing to succeed in the NFL had he lost that game. In SB41, the game was so sloppy that another special teams or defensive touchdown could have helped Rex Grossman defeat (in my opinion) the greatest quarterback to ever lace them up. As good as Matt Hasselbeck was in the mid-2000's, Hasselbeck-types are available in the third or fourth round of any draft. Ditto Jake Delhomme.

Really, I think the common link about getting to the next level in the common game is that the quarterback must play well for most of the season, particularly in the post-season. Whether the quarterback is a franchise player, or merely posing as one in the right situation doesn't seem to matter.

I agree with you that a quarterback can't get his team to the level of a champion playing like Trent Dilfer did in 2000 anymore. Well, except for Grossman.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Zorn on the 4th of July

Very thought-provoking post, but remember that great QB play is different than hot QB draft prospects, and improving QB play doesn't necessarily involve the draft or even the QB himself.

Gentlemen, your conference-winning quarterbacks of the last ten years (and NFL draft round):

John Elway (1)
Chris Chandler (3)
Kurt Warner (undrafted)
Steve McNair (1)
Trent Dilfer (1)
Kerry Collins (1)
Tom Brady (6)
Brad Johnson (9)
Rich Gannon (4)
Jake Delhomme (undrafted)
Donovan McNabb (1)
Ben Roethlisberger (1)
Matt Hasslebeck (6)
Peyton Manning (1)
Rex Grossman (1)
Eli Manning (1)

Thank you for that fine list. Let's look at it again:
1) 7 out of 16 were not drafted in the first round. So the statement, "Winning teams can find QB's in later rounds, or even undrafted" appears to be true.
2) But 9 out of 16 came in the first round. The most common draft position, by far, is the first round. So the statement, "Winning teams most commonly have QB's taken in the first round" also appears to be true.

Put it together and we see that winning teams can draft QB's late (or not at all), but the best-worn path to winning is with a first round QB.

[Zorn on the 4th of July]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Put it together and we see that winning teams can draft QB's late (or not at all), but the best-worn path to winning is with a first round QB.

Right, BUT: we're not forced to pick a QB in the first round at random. You have to actually look at the QBs who are entering the draft as individuals. The highest-valued QBs in the draft this year don't provide as much of a guarantee of success as Jason Campbell (himself a first round pick) does. We've got a cupcake non-conference road schedule in 2010, so it would be a pity to throw out Campbell and write 2010 off as a rebuilding year, which it certainly does not have to be.

[jamf]

Originally Posted by PennSkinsFan

If you are picking 4th, as bad as the Redskins needs are, you need impact right away. I am thinking OT in the first, QB in the second.

If Bradford or anyone else is a Manning or Rivers type talent, You have to draft him. You don't have many opportunities to get a player like that.

With the 4th overall pick it's important not to reach for a need player at a position of need. If you have to make sure you get the most dominant player available.

I would love to have a bookend tackle but if he is going to be the next robert gallery, we should pass.

TE is the only position on this team that I wouldn't use the first round pick on. We have two great players. I know we need Olinemen but if we have an opportunity to take the next Darrell Revis, Patrick Willis, Mario Williams, Sean Taylor or Adrian Peterson then we have to draft the person who is going to kill the rest of the NFC east for the next decade.

[Eknox]

Originally Posted by jamf

If Bradford or anyone else is a Manning or Rivers type talent, You have to draft him. You don't have many opportunities to get a player like that.

With the 4th overall pick it's important not to reach for a need player at a position of need. If you have to make sure you get the most dominant player available.

I would love to have a bookend tackle but if he is going to be the next robert gallery, we should pass.

TE is the only position on this team that I wouldn't use the first round pick on. We have two great players. I know we need Olinemen but if we have an opportunity to take the next Darrell Revis, Patrick Willis, Mario Williams, Sean Taylor or Adrian Peterson then we have to draft the person who is going to kill the rest of the NFC east for the next decade.

I agree that's why I'd try to trade down and get C.J. Spiller Gamechanger!

[Zorn on the 4th of July]

Draft C.J. Spiller as our Futureback. Adds needed depth to the position, improves special teams immediately, could step in if Portis is removed/injured, he is accustomed to platooning, and could take some pressure to produce off of Campbell. He's probably not a good pick at 4th, so we could scoop up a few extra draft picks just by trading down (thus retaining the ability to bolster the OL).

I like our defense--there is a lot of athleticism on D. They just need some coaching and perhaps (after hearing from Haynesworth and Hall), a more intuitive defensive scheme. I'm really looking forward to witnessing Landry's inevitable improvement next season.

There are actually some pretty good O-linemen available through free agency (who have knees with some years left in them), so no need to go OL crazy in the draft, particularly early.

We need a weapon, and I think staying with Campbell has a favorable risk/reward ratio, so we don't need to waste an early pick on a risky QB. Picking up an outstanding athlete at RB at a spot lower than 4th could help out a lot.

Lastly, if you have doubts that C.J. Spiller is capable of being a high-performance RB, you're absolutely justified in your concerns and you are NOT crazy. However, remember who the new head coach is his track record with RBs.

[Trample the Elderly]

I still don't get it? We have no O-line starters that are worth a damn and no depth. I don't consider Heyer to be depth. I consider him to be an UDFA that had his chance. There are maybe a few players we can use for another year if possible: Dockery, Raback, Mike Williams . . . maybe. Randy Thomas and CS are retiring. If they don't they'll not last very long.

So why is it I keep hearing about this douche Clausen and that broke-ass Bradford? Why do I hear about Berry and his peeps, Franken-berry and Boo-berry? Count Chocula? He can't block man!?

How are you guys gonna feel when Clausen, Bradford, or Pineapple Jesus gets destroyed just like Campbell, Brunnell, and Ramsey did? Didn't Pineapple Jesus get put on IR for taking just a little bit of the punishment in pre-season, that JC took ALL YEAR!? What makes y'all think the douche can take that kind of punishment? Tebow maybe . . . but he isn't worth a 1st round pick by a long shot. And Bradford . . . . The man has already missed almost his entire senior year because of injuries. You guys want to waste a pick on him?

How about trading down for starting linemen and depth? If you want to draft a douche like Clausen, do it in the fourth. Let him suck his thumb on the bench for a year or two, while the line is transformed into something that doesn't resemble a effing sieve. No QB can throw TDs from his back.

Some of you guys think like those jerks in Detroit do. You want to see where drafting one of these guys will take you? Look up footage of Stafford getting destroyed on the NFL's site. Listen to him scream in pain like a little girl as they scrape him off the turf. That's how you destroy a QB. He's only been in the league for a year and he's already jacked up. Throw Clausen or Bradford to the wolves. See what happens.

I hope Shanny-han isn't that stupid.

[Redskin Warrior]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

I still don't get it? We have no O-line starters that are worth a damn and no depth. I don't consider Heyer to be depth. I consider him to be an UDFA that had his chance. There are maybe a few players we can use for another year if possible: Dockery, Raback, Mike Williams . . . maybe. Randy Thomas and CS are retiring. If they don't they'll not last very long.

So why is it I keep hearing about this douche Clausen and that broke-ass Bradford? Why do I hear about Berry and his peeps, Franken-berry and Boo-berry? Count Chocula? He can't block man!?

How are you guys gonna feel when Clausen, Bradford, or Pineapple Jesus gets destroyed just like Campbell, Brunnell, and Ramsey did? Didn't Pineapple Jesus get put on IR for taking just a little bit of the punishment in pre-season, that JC took ALL YEAR!? What makes y'all think the douche can take that kind of punishment? Tebow maybe . . . but he isn't worth a 1st round pick by a long shot. And Bradford . . . . The man has already missed almost his entire senior year because of injuries. You guys want to waste a pick on him?

How about trading down for starting linemen and depth? If you want to draft a douche like Clausen, do it in the fourth. Let him suck his thumb on the bench for a year or two, while the line is transformed into something that doesn't resemble a effing sieve. No QB can throw TDs from his back.

Some of you guys think like those jerks in Detroit do. You want to see where drafting one of these guys will take you? Look up footage of Stafford getting destroyed on the NFL's site. Listen to him scream in pain like a little girl as they scrape him off the turf. That's how you destroy a QB. He's only been in the league for a year and he's already jacked up. Throw Clausen or Bradford to the wolves. See what happens.

I hope Shanny-han isn't that stupid.

I agree 100%

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

So why is it I keep hearing about this douche Clausen and that broke-ass Bradford?....
How are you guys gonna feel when Clausen, Bradford, or Pineapple Jesus gets destroyed just like Campbell, Brunnell, and Ramsey did? Didn't Pineapple Jesus get put on IR for taking just a little bit of the punishment in pre-season, that JC took ALL YEAR!? What makes y'all think the douche can take that kind of punishment? Tebow maybe . . . but he isn't worth a 1st round pick by a long shot. And Bradford . . . . The man has already missed almost his entire senior year because of injuries. You guys want to waste a pick on him?

How about trading down for starting linemen and depth? If you want to draft a douche like Clausen, do it in the fourth. Let him suck his thumb on the bench for a year or two, while the line is transformed into something that doesn't resemble a effing sieve. No QB can throw TDs from his back.

Some of you guys think like those jerks in Detroit do. You want to see where drafting one of these guys will take you? Look up footage of Stafford getting destroyed on the NFL's site. Listen to him scream in pain like a little girl as they scrape him off the turf. That's how you destroy a QB. He's only been in the league for a year and he's already jacked up. Throw Clausen or Bradford to the wolves. See what happens.

I hope Shanny-han isn't that stupid.

Shanahan (Sr. & Jr.) know that you need a franchise QB to win at a playoff level in the NFL. We need a franchise QB. If Shanahan believes Clausen is a franchise QB (I do) if he's there, you get him. I don't believe any of the other QBs in this draft are first round caliber.

There are a few good FA OL available this year. We should be able to pick up at least two solid OL in the draft. Keep JC around for another year, let Clausen sit & learn, we'll probably have a top 15 pick on 2011 in that scenario and we complete the rebuild of the OL then. 2011 we have a good young OL, a franchise QB in place, and we can start to make a run.

It's not Detroit syndrome, it's a matter of us having several needs that won't be filled in one off-season. The hardest piece to find is a franchise QB. Who will be there next year at that level, Locker, maybe Luck comes out early, but those two will be gone within the first 8 picks. High caliber OL are important but easier to acquire than a franchise QB.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

I still don't get it? We have no O-line starters that are worth a damn and no depth. I don't consider Heyer to be depth. I consider him to be an UDFA that had his chance. There are maybe a few players we can use for another year if possible: Dockery, Raback, Mike Williams . . . maybe. Randy Thomas and CS are retiring. If they don't they'll not last very long.

So why is it I keep hearing about this douche Clausen and that broke-ass Bradford? Why do I hear about Berry and his peeps, Franken-berry and Boo-berry? Count Chocula? He can't block man!?

How are you guys gonna feel when Clausen, Bradford, or Pineapple Jesus gets destroyed just like Campbell, Brunnell, and Ramsey did? Didn't Pineapple Jesus get put on IR for taking just a little bit of the punishment in pre-season, that JC took ALL YEAR!? What makes y'all think the douche can take that kind of punishment? Tebow maybe . . . but he isn't worth a 1st round pick by a long shot. And Bradford . . . . The man has already missed almost his entire senior year because of injuries. You guys want to waste a pick on him?

How about trading down for starting linemen and depth? If you want to draft a douche like Clausen, do it in the fourth. Let him suck his thumb on the bench for a year or two, while the line is transformed into something that doesn't resemble a effing sieve. No QB can throw TDs from his back.

Some of you guys think like those jerks in Detroit do. You want to see where drafting one of these guys will take you? Look up footage of Stafford getting destroyed on the NFL's site. Listen to him scream in pain like a little girl as they scrape him off the turf. That's how you destroy a QB. He's only been in the league for a year and he's already jacked up. Throw Clausen or Bradford to the wolves. See what happens.

I hope Shanny-han isn't that stupid.

Is that a record for the # of times 'douche' was used in a post? Wow.

Kiper projected on M&M this morning that McCoy probably fell into the late 2nd, early 3rd and possibly 4th because of last night. He will likely need an amazing combine/individual workout to put himself back up as a sure fire first day pick.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Is that a record for the # of times 'douche' was used in a post? Wow.

Kiper projected on M&M this morning that McCoy probably fell into the late 2nd, early 3rd and possibly 4th because of last night. He will likely need an amazing combine/individual workout to put himself back up as a sure fire first day pick.

Have you seen the mug on the guy? Three times is an understatement.

[Lotus]

Anyone wanting a running back? Joe McKnight has declared for the draft.

[TheSmurfs22]

I will be disappointed if we draft a qb with our first pick. I really hope we either get a chance to nab Okung or trade the pick away and pick up a few more.