Wade Phillips Fired; Jason Garrett Named Interim Head Coach

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

But of course Sir. and I was intrigued, so I started to go to the 1995 Broncos reference page (Shanahan's first year there) and ours. There are some similarities, both teams were 4-4 after 8 games. Elway was 35, McNabb 34. They had a ProBowl FS, we have -very likely- a probowl Safety in Landry. They had better offensive output certainly, but our defensive play has been better. A truth is that the 1995 Broncos went 8-8, but the 96-98 Broncos had no less than 12 games in any season.

Seriously you can express your opinion, that's what the board is all about, and I can express mine as well.

CRedskins Rule:

Your comparisons are on target. Having said that, there are three big differences between the '95 Broncos and the '10 Redskins. Consider:


Difference #1: The Broncos had John Elway at QB; the Redskins have Donovan McNabb at QB. Let me be clear here; Donovan McNabb is a VERY good QB; he is the best QB the Redskins have had since the Sonny/Billy days. Not a word of what I am about to say is meant to be a put-down for Donovan McNabb - - but he is not now, has never been and never will be close to John Elway as a QB. I see no way that this "difference" can be overcome.


Difference #2: The Broncos of 1995 had in place plenty of talent on their OL. It had not been fully developed/exploited but there was talent there; the coaches (Alex Gibbs for one) had raw material to work with. The offensive line for the Redskins in 2010 consists of a really promising rookie tackle (Trent Willliams) and a half-dozen other guys whose best attribute is that they could serve as piano movers in the off season. Even in the most soaring flights of fancy, it is difficult to give this OL a label as kind and gentle as "Marginally Competent". This difference can be overcome with a couple of solid drafts, some SMART free agent signings - - not necessarily expensive free agent signings - - and really good coaching. Time will tell...


Difference #3: Also on the roster for the Broncos in 1995 was a rookie running back named Terrell Davis. And remember, he had a talented - - but not yet fully developed - - offensive line in front of him. In the years 1996 - 98, Davis was force to be reckoned with. Until he blew out a knee, he never had a season with less than a 4.5 yards per rush attempt. I know that Ryan Torrain is a good young back that Shanny "discovered" in his Denver days; I also think Torrain can be a solid RB in the NFL. But to compare him to Terrell Davis as a talent is a bit too much of a stretch for me - - unless all I had to go on was Larry Michael's descriptions and accounts of NFL games. To overcome this difference, will probably require the acquisition of a RB not currently on the roster. No, Clinton Portis in 2010 and going forward will not make up for this difference...

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

CRedskins Rule:

Your comparisons are on target. Having said that, there are three big differences between the '95 Broncos and the '10 Redskins. Consider:


Difference #1: The Broncos had John Elway at QB; the Redskins have Donovan McNabb at QB. Let me be clear here; Donovan McNabb is a VERY good QB; he is the best QB the Redskins have had since the Sonny/Billy days. Not a word of what I am about to say is meant to be a put-down for Donovan McNabb - - but he is not now, has never been and never will be close to John Elway as a QB. I see no way that this "difference" can be overcome.


Difference #2: The Broncos of 1995 had in place plenty of talent on their OL. It had not been fully developed/exploited but there was talent there; the coaches (Alex Gibbs for one) had raw material to work with. The offensive line for the Redskins in 2010 consists of a really promising rookie tackle (Trent Willliams) and a half-dozen other guys whose best attribute is that they could serve as piano movers in the off season. Even in the most soaring flights of fancy, it is difficult to give this OL a label as kind and gentle as "Marginally Competent". This difference can be overcome with a couple of solid drafts, some SMART free agent signings - - not necessarily expensive free agent signings - - and really good coaching. Time will tell...


Difference #3: Also on the roster for the Broncos in 1995 was a rookie running back named Terrell Davis. And remember, he had a talented - - but not yet fully developed - - offensive line in front of him. In the years 1996 - 98, Davis was force to be reckoned with. Until he blew out a knee, he never had a season with less than a 4.5 yards per rush attempt. I know that Ryan Torrain is a good young back that Shanny "discovered" in his Denver days; I also think Torrain can be a solid RB in the NFL. But to compare him to Terrell Davis as a talent is a bit too much of a stretch for me - - unless all I had to go on was Larry Michael's descriptions and accounts of NFL games. To overcome this difference, will probably require the acquisition of a RB not currently on the roster. No, Clinton Portis in 2010 and going forward will not make up for this difference...

I basically agree with all of this. Although one thing Elway and McNabb had is I generally disliked both. Think that is enough to get us to the SB on?

Seriously. I don't know what Torrain offers, or what we might get in next years limited draft. On the line, in 1995 the Broncos OL looked like this:
(note columns are: age years games started and draft info)
LT Gary Zimmerman(PB) 34, 9, 16 New York Giants / 1st / 3rd pick / 1984 Supp

LG Mark Schlereth 29 6 16 Washington Redskins / 10th / 263rd pick / 1989

C Tom Nalen 24 1 15 Denver Broncos / 7th / 218th pick / 1994

RG Brian Habib 31 6 16 Minnesota Vikings / 10th / 264th pick / 1988

RT Broderick Thompson 35 10 16

So
an aging ProBowl LT,
a dependable, 10th Rd LG;
a rookie 7th Rd Center;
a 10th rd RG
an undrafted I guess 10 year vet at RT.

We have:
a rookie 1st round (non - bust) LT
a 25yo LG
an 33yo Center (with a potential C in Cook)
a 32 yo journeyman RG
and a 29yo RT (former PB and maybe just needs the year for conditioning)

My biggest point, is that no one would have looked at Shanahan's line and gone HOLY SMOKES Batman that's outstanding. But Shanahan coached them up, and got the best from them, (as he did Elway too).

We aren't a great team this year. May or may not make the playoffs, but the Denver team that Shanahan inherited wasn't exactly lighting the sky up either.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I basically agree with all of this. Although one thing Elway and McNabb had is I generally disliked both. Think that is enough to get us to the SB on?

Seriously. I don't know what Torrain offers, or what we might get in next years limited draft. On the line, in 1995 the Broncos OL looked like this:
(note columns are: age years games started and draft info)
LT Gary Zimmerman(PB) 34, 9, 16 New York Giants / 1st / 3rd pick / 1984 Supp

LG Mark Schlereth 29 6 16 Washington Redskins / 10th / 263rd pick / 1989

C Tom Nalen 24 1 15 Denver Broncos / 7th / 218th pick / 1994

RG Brian Habib 31 6 16 Minnesota Vikings / 10th / 264th pick / 1988

RT Broderick Thompson 35 10 16

So
an aging ProBowl LT,
a dependable, 10th Rd LG;
a rookie 7th Rd Center;
a 10th rd RG
an undrafted I guess 10 year vet at RT.

We have:
a rookie 1st round (non - bust) LT
a 25yo LG
an 33yo Center (with a potential C in Cook)
a 32 yo journeyman RG
and a 29yo RT (former PB and maybe just needs the year for conditioning)

My biggest point, is that no one would have looked at Shanahan's line and gone HOLY SMOKES Batman that's outstanding. But Shanahan coached them up, and got the best from them, (as he did Elway too).

We aren't a great team this year. May or may not make the playoffs, but the Denver team that Shanahan inherited wasn't exactly lighting the sky up either.

Beat me to it. Great minds...

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

CRedskins Rule:

Your comparisons are on target. Having said that, there are three big differences between the '95 Broncos and the '10 Redskins. Consider:


Difference #1: The Broncos had John Elway at QB; the Redskins have Donovan McNabb at QB. Let me be clear here; Donovan McNabb is a VERY good QB; he is the best QB the Redskins have had since the Sonny/Billy days. Not a word of what I am about to say is meant to be a put-down for Donovan McNabb - - but he is not now, has never been and never will be close to John Elway as a QB. I see no way that this "difference" can be overcome.


Difference #2: The Broncos of 1995 had in place plenty of talent on their OL. It had not been fully developed/exploited but there was talent there; the coaches (Alex Gibbs for one) had raw material to work with. The offensive line for the Redskins in 2010 consists of a really promising rookie tackle (Trent Willliams) and a half-dozen other guys whose best attribute is that they could serve as piano movers in the off season. Even in the most soaring flights of fancy, it is difficult to give this OL a label as kind and gentle as "Marginally Competent". This difference can be overcome with a couple of solid drafts, some SMART free agent signings - - not necessarily expensive free agent signings - - and really good coaching. Time will tell...


Difference #3: Also on the roster for the Broncos in 1995 was a rookie running back named Terrell Davis. And remember, he had a talented - - but not yet fully developed - - offensive line in front of him. In the years 1996 - 98, Davis was force to be reckoned with. Until he blew out a knee, he never had a season with less than a 4.5 yards per rush attempt. I know that Ryan Torrain is a good young back that Shanny "discovered" in his Denver days; I also think Torrain can be a solid RB in the NFL. But to compare him to Terrell Davis as a talent is a bit too much of a stretch for me - - unless all I had to go on was Larry Michael's descriptions and accounts of NFL games. To overcome this difference, will probably require the acquisition of a RB not currently on the roster. No, Clinton Portis in 2010 and going forward will not make up for this difference...

1. Fair enough

2. What "not yet fully developed talent" are you talking about? Was it 10 year (not including his USFL years) veteran OT Gary Zimmerman who played 2 more seasons and then retired, was it 10 year (not including USFL) veteran OT Broderick Thompson (RIP) who played one more season after '95 and then retired, was it former Redskin OG Ralph Tamm who played half the '96 season with the Broncos, then rode the Chiefs bench for the next 3 years, was it 7 year veteran OG Bill Schultz who played 2 games for the Broncos, was it 7 year veteran OG Mark Schlereth, was it 12 year veteran OT Reggie McElroy who played one more season with the Broncos after '95?

3. Agree to disagree I suppose. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess but not sure you can say at this point that Torain can't have a strong career, perhaps one that lasts longer than TDs

[dblanch66]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

CRedskins Rule:

Your comparisons are on target. Having said that, there are three big differences between the '95 Broncos and the '10 Redskins. Consider:


Difference #1: The Broncos had John Elway at QB; the Redskins have Donovan McNabb at QB. Let me be clear here; Donovan McNabb is a VERY good QB; he is the best QB the Redskins have had since the Sonny/Billy days. Not a word of what I am about to say is meant to be a put-down for Donovan McNabb - - but he is not now, has never been and never will be close to John Elway as a QB. I see no way that this "difference" can be overcome.


Difference #2: The Broncos of 1995 had in place plenty of talent on their OL. It had not been fully developed/exploited but there was talent there; the coaches (Alex Gibbs for one) had raw material to work with. The offensive line for the Redskins in 2010 consists of a really promising rookie tackle (Trent Willliams) and a half-dozen other guys whose best attribute is that they could serve as piano movers in the off season. Even in the most soaring flights of fancy, it is difficult to give this OL a label as kind and gentle as "Marginally Competent". This difference can be overcome with a couple of solid drafts, some SMART free agent signings - - not necessarily expensive free agent signings - - and really good coaching. Time will tell...


Difference #3: Also on the roster for the Broncos in 1995 was a rookie running back named Terrell Davis. And remember, he had a talented - - but not yet fully developed - - offensive line in front of him. In the years 1996 - 98, Davis was force to be reckoned with. Until he blew out a knee, he never had a season with less than a 4.5 yards per rush attempt. I know that Ryan Torrain is a good young back that Shanny "discovered" in his Denver days; I also think Torrain can be a solid RB in the NFL. But to compare him to Terrell Davis as a talent is a bit too much of a stretch for me - - unless all I had to go on was Larry Michael's descriptions and accounts of NFL games. To overcome this difference, will probably require the acquisition of a RB not currently on the roster. No, Clinton Portis in 2010 and going forward will not make up for this difference...

1. Sorry to disagree but Theismann in his prime was awesome and better than McNabb in my opinion..AND: he actually won a ring and was instrumental in doing so. Sonny, Billy and Donavan didn't do that. Then of course Mark Rypien had a pretty good year in '91....just sayin'.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by dblanch66

1. Sorry to disagree but Theismann in his prime was awesome and better than McNabb in my opinion..AND: he actually won a ring and was instrumental in doing so. Sonny, Billy and Donavan didn't do that. Then of course Mark Rypien had a pretty good year in '91....just sayin'.

Don't forget that he was also instrumental in having the Redskins set an NFL record of most points in a season (since broken twice) and also losing the SB. If the skins would have won that SB, Theismann would be in the HOF.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

Don't forget that he was also instrumental in having the Redskins set an NFL record of most points in a season (since broken twice) and also losing the SB. If the skins would have won that SB, Theismann would be in the HOF.

Agreed, but not sure about the hall. Would certainly help though.
Joe T. was a leader, a great qb in his prime, great scrambler & pretty accurate w/the ball. Best 2 minute qb of his time until Montana started to tear it up.

[CRedskinsRule]

I also wonder how McNabb would be seen if he wins a SB with us. Consider these career stats:

Elway: 56.9, 4.1, 3.1, 79.9
McNabb: 58.9, 4.4, 2.2, 85.9

Those are Completion %, TD %, INT %, and passer rating.

Elway(15 years) had 35 4th qtr comebacks, and 46 game winning drives (this is his fame)
McNabb(11 years) has 15 4th qtr cb, and 23 game winning drives (clearly not the same caliber)

SB (Pre Shanahan)
Elway (0-3) 86, 87, and 89
McNabb (0-1) '04

Playoff teams(Pre Shanahan)
Elway went 7 seasons out of 12 possible
McNabb went 8 seasons out of 10 possible

Again, I guess my point is that if McNabb gets a SB or 2, in the next 4 years, couldn't you make the case that he is Elway'ish, tho' not Elway.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I also wonder how McNabb would be seen if he wins a SB with us. Consider these career stats:

Elway: 56.9, 4.1, 3.1, 79.9
McNabb: 58.9, 4.4, 2.2, 85.9

Those are Completion %, TD %, INT %, and passer rating.

Elway(15 years) had 35 4th qtr comebacks, and 46 game winning drives (this is his fame)
McNabb(11 years) has 15 4th qtr cb, and 23 game winning drives (clearly not the same caliber)

SB (Pre Shanahan)
Elway (0-3) 86, 87, and 89
McNabb (0-1) '04

Playoff teams(Pre Shanahan)
Elway went 7 seasons out of 12 possible
McNabb went 8 seasons out of 10 possible

Again, I guess my point is that if McNabb gets a SB or 2, in the next 4 years, couldn't you make the case that he is Elway'ish, tho' not Elway.

I actually wanted to piggyback on what you've done here and pull the era contextual stats off of profootballreference to see how McNabb compared with Elway given the inflation of offensive stats since the 80s.

Completion percentage
McNabb = 97
Elway = 101

TD%
McNabb = 105
Elway = 102

INT%
McNabb = 116
Elway = 107

Rating
McNabb = 107
Elway = 105

Y/A
McNabb = 102
Elway = 104

Even adjusting for era, McNabb threw more TDs and fewer INTs than Elway, who completed a greater percentage of his passes, took fewer sacks, and threw for more yards per attempt than McNabb.

Anecdotally, I think Elway's Denver teams pre-Shanahan were very much of the quality of the current Shanahan team, so the downtick in McNabb's numbers this year -- while a small sample -- suggest to me that he's probably a worse QB in many ways than John Elway, who I believe to be kind of a fringy hall of famer (does he get there w/o a SB? Probably would have, but if he had missed in his first few years, I don't see Elway's case getting stronger with time).

[SmootSmack]

Dallas Cowboys place Marcus Spears, Akwasi Owusu-Ansah on IR - ESPN Dallas

[21SkinsFan28]

Things just keep getting worse for the Cowboys...definitely good for us though.

(can't post the link) - Marcus Spears just went to IR along with their rookie safety Akwasi Owusu-Ansah

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 21SkinsFan28

Things just keep getting worse for the Cowboys...definitely good for us though.

(can't post the link) - Marcus Spears just went to IR along with their rookie safety Akwasi Owusu-Ansah

http://www.thewarpath.net/757459-post101.html

[JLee9718]

I love it when the Cowboys are in disarray!!!