Roster transition in the Shanny era

[irish]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Those guys are relevant in the discussion about the recent past, i.e. why the Redskins haven't been successful under Shanahan.I'm willing to concede that it's meaningless going forward, w/free agency around the corner for those guys. It's been a tough two years. Lots of sub-par decisions. Obviously the REALLY meaningful ones are Rogers and Carter.

2012 = make or break. That's something we can agree on that the release trades of Tryon, Rinehart, Williams, and Heyer have no effect on. If the re-building re-tooling effort worked, then it worked. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

The Redskins havent been successful in over a decade due to draft mis-management and roster rot. With an organization that much of a mess I think it will take all of Shanny's contract just to get this team back to being competitive (not great but competitive) because its impossible to fix over a decade of destruction in 2 or 3 years. IMO, to call 2012 a make or break is waaay premature.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Those guys are relevant in the discussion about the recent past, i.e. why the Redskins haven't been successful under Shanahan.I'm willing to concede that it's meaningless going forward, w/free agency around the corner for those guys. It's been a tough two years. Lots of sub-par decisions. Obviously the REALLY meaningful ones are Rogers and Carter.

2012 = make or break. That's something we can agree on that the release trades of Tryon, Rinehart, Williams, and Heyer have no effect on. If the re-building re-tooling effort worked, then it worked. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

I'll even disagree on them.. Carter is a terrible 3-4 fit, he just is. Now an argument can be made that we should have tried to get something in trade for him, which I agree with but the fact that he is an ex-Redskin isn't really a big deal.

Rogers wasn't coming back regardless. When he didn't get a big extension that he thought he deserved after the '09 season he was mentally done in DC. He vastly overrated himself in the marketplace and received a one year contract as a result. Historically he has played his best in contract years so I'll be interested to see how he performs on a long term deal.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Those guys are relevant in the discussion about the recent past, i.e. why the Redskins haven't been successful under Shanahan.I'm willing to concede that it's meaningless going forward, w/free agency around the corner for those guys. It's been a tough two years. Lots of sub-par decisions. Obviously the REALLY meaningful ones are Rogers and Carter.

2012 = make or break. That's something we can agree on that the release trades of Tryon, Rinehart, Williams, and Heyer have no effect on. If the re-building re-tooling effort worked, then it worked. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Would our W/L record have been any different with these guys?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Would our W/L record have been any different with these guys?

With vastly improved personnel management? Of course. With just one of them? Probably not.

Every one of these cases is a small symptom of a larger problem. The larger problem is one of the core reasons we can't win games. There's no obvious reason why we couldn't have picked better players to take these guys' roster spots, but we obviously did not. Pointing out that these guys once existed as Redskins is just a response to the idea that we never had any talent here. It was once here, we chose to go in a different direction.

Now to me, that was obvious at the get-go (March 2010), but to a lot of people who believed in a long term rebuilding plan, they need to be reminded that those guys were here and are now improving elsewhere. Obviously, we had a different vision for the franchise. I don't think the vision was back to back ten+ loss seasons, but that was the result of the execution.

It's only because this is a thread where we are trying to dig deeper than the final record that guys like Edwin Williams and Chad Rinehart are still relevant. If we weren't into hard analysis, well, bad record = bad coach.

[GTripp0012]

I looked at the 2009 Jaguars roster. They have five guys from that team who went on to be starters elsewhere:

-Quentin Groves, DE (who Oakland picked up and started at LB)
-John Henderson, DT (who is a rotational guy for the Raiders)
-Derek Landri, DT (who started for the Panthers in place of Kemo in 2010, and is having a career year with the Eagles in 2011)
-Justin Durant, LB (who left for Detroit in free agency)
-Reggie Nelson, S (who has started 22 games with the Bengals after being traded)

That's about as much as I've found elsewhere: the Jaguars defense has shed some real talent. But even with them, that's not the side of the ball that's a disaster for them. No offensive players from the 2009 or 2010 Jags have ended up elsewhere having success.

[GTripp0012]

2009 Buffalo had just four guys (all first or second rounders) who left via FA or waivers to achieve success elsewhere:

-Donte Whitner, S (with SF)
-Aaron Maybin, LB (with NYJ)
-Marshawn Lynch, RB (with SEA) *possible pro bowl
-Paul Posluzsny, LB (with JAX)

Then the Lee Evans trade, which would make five total. I don't remember what they got back for Evans. I remember it being kind of like the Haynesworth trade: like a 4th/5th rounder for a starter, and then the starter underwhelms.

[GTripp0012]

2009 Minnesota Vikings

-WR Sidney Rice (with SEA)
-LT Bryant McKinnie (with BAL)
-DE Ray Edwards (with ATL)
-DE Jayme Mitchell (with CLE)
-OG Artis Hicks (with CLE via WAS)

[skinsfan69]

these off season threads are already starting to get brutal.

[JoeRedskin]

And to cut Tripp some slack ...

11-21 in two years is bad. very bad - and that's the bottom line. Until and unless you win, all of your talent management moves will be suspect.

In the words of the Ol' Ball Coach: "5-11, that's not too good."

[Gary84Clark]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

And to cut Tripp some slack ...

11-21 in two years is bad. very bad - and that's the bottom line. Until and unless you win, all of your talent management moves will be suspect.

In the words of the Ol' Ball Coach: "5-11, that's not too good."

Round of Applause

[MTK]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

And to cut Tripp some slack ...

11-21 in two years is bad. very bad - and that's the bottom line. Until and unless you win, all of your talent management moves will be suspect.

In the words of the Ol' Ball Coach: "5-11, that's not too good."

Of course, but let's talk about some moves that matter. Talking about depth guys and borderline starters doesn't do much for me.

[GTripp0012]

I also want to suggest that there's no way Carter or Rogers is a probowler on this team in 2011. That's not what I'm trying to suggest: that the Redskins voluntarily gave up the only two probowlers on their roster. I think they gave up two very, very good players because they did not fit what the Redskins wanted to do. And generally speaking that's not good roster management. But the fact that Carter is already replaced in the scheme makes it easier to stomach.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I also want to suggest that there's no way Carter or Rogers is a probowler on this team in 2011. That's not what I'm trying to suggest: that the Redskins voluntarily gave up the only two probowlers on their roster. I think they gave up two very, very good players because they did not fit what the Redskins wanted to do. And generally speaking that's not good roster management. But the fact that Carter is already replaced in the scheme makes it easier to stomach.

So square peg-round hole is good roster management or you'd advocate reshaping philosophy to suit two ill fitting players? Not trying to be a wiseass, just trying to grasp your issue with the roster management under Shanahan as it relates to players he cut that are on rosters elsewhere.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

So square peg-round hole is good roster management or you'd advocate reshaping philosophy to suit two ill fitting players? Not trying to be a wiseass, just trying to grasp your issue with the roster management under Shanahan as it relates to players he cut that are on rosters elsewhere.

They let them go because they were deemed to be "inconsistent" players unworthy of long-term deals. Not bad performers within the scheme, inconsistent performers.

Well, whose fault was that? The players? Well, at the time you could have argued that, but then they went elsewhere and performed like deserving pro bowlers. Nothing remotely inconsistent in their game.

So the only people who were wrong were those who determined that they were inconsistent performers in the first place. Again, no one thought these players were bad here, but Carter couldn't consistently do what was asked of an edge player in the scheme (I'm amazed they didn't try him over the tackle at LDE with Lorenzo Alexander as the in-space edge guy, but that is their prerogative).

Carter was still our second best pass rusher last season, and Rogers was our best or second best cover corner (depending what you thought of Phil Buchanon). That's what they were in this scheme. In other roles, they were pro bowlers. But if you looked at this years defense and thought that it couldn't have used a cover guy or another pass rusher, well, then I don't agree.

Full disclosure: I didn't disagree with the decision to get rid of either of them. But that is not an excuse for poor roster management. I just think it's masquerading as one. The bigger issue is that when they were here in 2010, the unit underperformed and they got blamed for it. Good teams don't pass the blame, but that's something that the Redskins have been doing on departed veterans since the Cerrato days.

To say the 2010 defense wasn't talented or didn't have the right pieces simply isn't accurate. What those two guys did in 2011 (as every down players) shows as much.

[MTK]

What else are you supposed to do with guys that don't fit your scheme? Anytime a new coach comes in, there's going to be significant roster turnover and yes often times good players are going to be let go.