Jordan Black suspended for PEDs

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Supposedly, our scouts and personnel guys under BA/MS are quite good, right? SS has said this repeatedly. And BA is a smart guy, I'd expect him to rely on their expertise regarding personnel and probably promote someone within, but absolutely I want BA at the top of the pyramid. Here again, he's said to have done wonders for the culture around Redskins Park. Does he bring in another personnel guy? Sure, whatever.

The larger point is to seperate coaching from personnel. Mike will never go for that, and I do not believe he can build a contender wearing the personnel hat, period. So you say Mike goes to personnel full time, and Kyle becomes HC. I asked the question in another thread and nobody tried to answer it, because the answer would be a fake: is Kyle a leader of men or just another offensive guru? And what if he struggles as HC? Does daddy fire him? It's a really, really stupid position to put yourself in as a franchise. In fact, I think it's unheard of, and for good reason.

I think it's funny there's a whole thread about a "Shanaplan" but there isn't a single person who can say what that plan has been, is today, or will be down the road. Just a lot of conjecture. But again, we know certain things. We know Mike thinks he knows best about personnel and will always want to be that guy. We know he "misses" a lot defensively. We know his last stop, Denver, isn't missing him in the least right now.

The arguments made against Reid were really shallow. His big screw up, not even mentioned btw, was betting on the wrong horse (Vick) who can't stay healthy and had a lower ceiling than many expected. And you can't ignore the injuries across his roster, most especially to Jason Peters and the whole oline. But more than anything, he's experienced the worst possible tragedy. It would be unreal, almost disturbing if he weren't showing signs of weariness and lack of focus this season. I don't know how some of you blow this off...hopefully it's just the kool-aid talking and not serious thought.

But yeah, I'd take a legit FO structure coupled with Reid or a handful of other HCs over the mysterious Shanaplan. We're facing two years of limited resources with an HC/GM that hasn't been able to develop a single defensive player selected outside the first two rounds, and we've seen myriad FA screw ups. It's not just McNabb. There's Brown. There's Doughty and Williams starting at safety because we bet on a dope head and a guy who hasn't been healthy in years. There's an oline that struggled mightily to pass protect when basically at full health, and now we'll see where that goes. A lot of this goes back to opportunity cost. How much better could the defense be, and even the offense, if we hadn't blown up the entire defense that still today isn't as good as the one Mike inherited?

I think what we saw is a lot of one step forward, two steps back during Mike's first two years, though this season looks like two steps forward, one step back. We got RG and the offense clicking, but the secondary fell into the toilet and the defense was a huge liability up until recently.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Supposedly, our scouts and personnel guys under BA/MS are quite good, right? SS has said this repeatedly. And BA is a smart guy, I'd expect him to rely on their expertise regarding personnel and probably promote someone within, but absolutely I want BA at the top of the pyramid. Here again, he's said to have done wonders for the culture around Redskins Park. Does he bring in another personnel guy? Sure, whatever.

The larger point is to seperate coaching from personnel. Mike will never go for that, and I do not believe he can build a contender wearing the personnel hat, period. So you say Mike goes to personnel full time, and Kyle becomes HC. I asked the question in another thread and nobody tried to answer it, because the answer would be a fake: is Kyle a leader of men or just another offensive guru? And what if he struggles as HC? Does daddy fire him? It's a really, really stupid position to put yourself in as a franchise. In fact, I think it's unheard of, and for good reason.

I think it's funny there's a whole thread about a "Shanaplan" but there isn't a single person who can say what that plan has been, is today, or will be down the road. Just a lot of conjecture. But again, we know certain things. We know Mike thinks he knows best about personnel and will always want to be that guy. We know he "misses" a lot defensively. We know his last stop, Denver, isn't missing him in the least right now.

The arguments made against Reid were really shallow. His big screw up, not even mentioned btw, was betting on the wrong horse (Vick) who can't stay healthy and had a lower ceiling than many expected. And you can't ignore the injuries across his roster, most especially to Jason Peters and the whole oline. But more than anything, he's experienced the worst possible tragedy. It would be unreal, almost disturbing if he weren't showing signs of weariness and lack of focus this season. I don't know how some of you blow this off...hopefully it's just the kool-aid talking and not serious thought.

But yeah, I'd take a legit FO structure coupled with Reid or a handful of other HCs over the mysterious Shanaplan. We're facing two years of limited resources with an HC/GM that hasn't been able to develop a single defensive player selected outside the first two rounds, and we've seen myriad FA screw ups. It's not just McNabb. There's Brown. There's Doughty and Williams starting at safety because we bet on a dope head and a guy who hasn't been healthy in years. There's an oline that struggled mightily to pass protect when basically at full health, and now we'll see where that goes. A lot of this goes back to opportunity cost. How much better could the defense be, and even the offense, if we hadn't blown up the entire defense that still today isn't as good as the one Mike inherited?

I think what we saw is a lot of one step forward, two steps back during Mike's first two years, though this season looks like two steps forward, one step back. We got RG and the offense clicking, but the secondary fell into the toilet and the defense was a huge liability up until recently.

What does any of this have to do with Jordan Black?

[Chico23231]

Goat, you know Shanny is getting strong consideration for coach of the year and RG3 MVP? And the Skins are vying for home playoff game?

You know when Zorn left the franchise was at the absolute bottom that most fans had never experienced?

I kinda dont get it

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Goat, you know Shanny is getting strong consideration for coach of the year and RG3 MVP? And the Skins are vying for home playoff game?

You know when Zorn left the franchise was at the absolute bottom that most fans had never experienced?

I kinda dont get it

The only place I've heard Mike for COY is on this board, where else has he been named?

Also, haven't heard RG discussed as MVP outside this board. P Manning, Brady and AP I've heard about. Manning gets it IMO.

Zorn was a joke, but this is Shanahan's team and roster through and through. Interestingly enough, the only remnants or similarities between the two regimes have been in play-calling eg swinging gate vs RG catching the pass against Ryan Clark. I'm not really sure why anyone brings Zorn up otherwise, what does he have to do with anything at this point? You can say the team was depleted of talent, but that's been debunked by Tripp and frankly, common sense. The defense Mike inherited was better than anything he's been able to put together since.

NFL.com lists pts/game ranking for us:

2012-23rd
2011-21st
2010-21st
2009-18th
2008-6th

The 18th ranking in 2009 is probably misleading because much of the team mailed it in halfway through the season. But it's clear anyway. In five seasons we went from 6th to 23rd, and Shanahan has everything to do with that. He also is responsible for an improved offense. So where does that leave us? Again, what's the Shanaplan? How does the defense improve so we can be a contender, given the lack of resources we have going forward? How does it "work" when father and son run the organization from top to bottom?

I don't blame anybody for avoiding specifics here btw. Just don't pretend they're unimportant.

Now we can go back to discussing Jordan Black

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by The Goat

The only place I've heard Mike for COY is on this board, where else has he been named?

Also, haven't heard RG discussed as MVP outside this board. P Manning, Brady and AP I've heard about. Manning gets it IMO.

Zorn was a joke, but this is Shanahan's team and roster through and through. Interestingly enough, the only remnants or similarities between the two regimes have been in play-calling eg swinging gate vs RG catching the pass against Ryan Clark. I'm not really sure why anyone brings Zorn up otherwise, what does he have to do with anything at this point? You can say the team was depleted of talent, but that's been debunked by Tripp and frankly, common sense. The defense Mike inherited was better than anything he's been able to put together since.

NFL.com lists pts/game ranking for us:

2012-23rd
2011-21st
2010-21st
2009-18th
2008-6th

The 18th ranking in 2009 is probably misleading because much of the team mailed it in halfway through the season. But it's clear anyway. In five seasons we went from 6th to 23rd, and Shanahan has everything to do with that. He also is responsible for an improved offense. So where does that leave us? Again, what's the Shanaplan? How does the defense improve so we can be a contender, given the lack of resources we have going forward? How does it "work" when father and son run the organization from top to bottom?

I don't blame anybody for avoiding specifics here btw. Just don't pretend they're unimportant.

Now we can go back to discussing Jordan Black

So... You...

1) proved the defense went from 18th to 23rd under Shanahan.

2) Completely avoided specifics by saying the 18th ranking is "misleading"

3) Said Shanahan has everything to do with the last 5 years of the defense, even though he's been here 2 3/4 years total.

4) Misleadingly claimed that the defense dropped from 6th to 23rd under Shanahan when your own facts clearly state that it has only dropped from 18th to 23rd.

5) Make an odd attempt to laugh at us by claiming that we are "avoiding specifics".

[artmonkforhallofamein07]

Originally Posted by The Goat

The only place I've heard Mike for COY is on this board, where else has he been named?

Also, haven't heard RG discussed as MVP outside this board. P Manning, Brady and AP I've heard about. Manning gets it IMO.

Zorn was a joke, but this is Shanahan's team and roster through and through. Interestingly enough, the only remnants or similarities between the two regimes have been in play-calling eg swinging gate vs RG catching the pass against Ryan Clark. I'm not really sure why anyone brings Zorn up otherwise, what does he have to do with anything at this point? You can say the team was depleted of talent, but that's been debunked by Tripp and frankly, common sense. The defense Mike inherited was better than anything he's been able to put together since.

NFL.com lists pts/game ranking for us:

2012-23rd
2011-21st
2010-21st
2009-18th
2008-6th

The 18th ranking in 2009 is probably misleading because much of the team mailed it in halfway through the season. But it's clear anyway. In five seasons we went from 6th to 23rd, and Shanahan has everything to do with that. He also is responsible for an improved offense. So where does that leave us? Again, what's the Shanaplan? How does the defense improve so we can be a contender, given the lack of resources we have going forward? How does it "work" when father and son run the organization from top to bottom?

I don't blame anybody for avoiding specifics here btw. Just don't pretend they're unimportant.

Now we can go back to discussing Jordan Black

Goat, I remember when Shanny was fired in Denver. He was quoted as saying something to the affect of "Now that I have a chmapioship conteding offense I need to get a defense and start contending for a championship again".

That would leave me to believe that his next steps in completing his 5 year plan will be to stack the defense the next two years while tweaking the offense to create a team capable of accomplishing that goal.

Yes the team had a defense that was ranked back then, but it was over paid veterans who were nearing the end of thier careers. The defense was going to need an overhaul soon, and Shanny wanted the 3-4. He took something that wasn't broke at the time but was heading there and started to reconstruct it. It obviously needs more work, but once again teams aren't built in an off season

[rbanerjee23]

Originally Posted by artmonkforhallofamein07

That would leave me to believe that his next steps in completing his 5 year plan will be to stack the defense the next two years while tweaking the offense to create a team capable of accomplishing that goal.

I really hope so -- I think he gets some leeway due to the unreal number of injuries, suspensions etc. which have decimated the defense. But leaders are judged on what is, not what could have been and the defense has done a very average job (much better in recent weeks) this season in my opinion. I really hope the defense gets better, and think it will, next season.

Stats don't tell the whole story but they are the most objective measures we have: 29th in YPG, 30th in PYPG, 23rd in Points per game, 16th in sacks -- not a championship caliber defense. That being said, 6th best in Takeaways and 6th best in RuYPG which is very good. So, incomplete, lots of room for improvement.

Anyways -- back to Jordan Black...

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by artmonkforhallofamein07

Goat, I remember when Shanny was fired in Denver. He was quoted as saying something to the affect of "Now that I have a chmapioship conteding offense I need to get a defense and start contending for a championship again".

That would leave me to believe that his next steps in completing his 5 year plan will be to stack the defense the next two years while tweaking the offense to create a team capable of accomplishing that goal.

Yes the team had a defense that was ranked back then, but it was over paid veterans who were nearing the end of thier careers. The defense was going to need an overhaul soon, and Shanny wanted the 3-4. He took something that wasn't broke at the time but was heading there and started to reconstruct it. It obviously needs more work, but once again teams aren't built in an off season

Good post. Shanny had some solid defenses between Elway's retirement and his own ousting, but most Denver fans (all the ones I know) don't believe he could put it all together to be a contender after Elway. And most fans believe that had everything to do with Mike taking an ever larger role in personnel decisions, to the point where he was basically wearing both hats.

I think those criticisms are accurate and justified but there's always more to the story. Shanahan/Elway never faced the kind of high powered offenses and defenses the following decade produced in NE, Indy, and (begrudgingly) Pittsburgh. I always thought Shanahan's teams were on the sloppy side, just as we see today with more penalties than any other team etc etc. But for that brief time in Denver he had a team that was unbelievably talented, and again it was a rather low point elsewhere in the NFL.

Today, Mike is still wearing both hats. Some supporters say we have little talent three years in (which always makes me wonder why the eff they're supporters). I think we have some good talent. I thought we had enough talent to finish 8-8 minimum this season, and that was before we saw RG play.

[12thMan]

The problem I have with Goat's argument that Shanny doesn't have a plan is, by his standard, most teams in the NFL don't have a plan either. They're either winging it or hoping and praying something good happens.

The Redskins are in first place in the NFC East for the first time in a very long time. To suggest it was luck or chance, because that's what Goat's suggesting, is ludicrous on so many levels it really doesn't warrant a serious response. Yet here we are.

[FRPLG]

Goat your main argument against Shanny seems to break down to you don't KNOW what the plan is.

The whole argument is ironically made upon assumptions and conjecture...that which explicitly dislike.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Since Goat decided to derail the thread and criticize Shanahan as a personnel guy, i'll play along. But lets actually look at what Shanahan has done. I apologize to anyone who's color blind, but i've made 4 categories. Please note that an * indicates the player is on another NFL team.

Stud / Starter - Green
Contributer - Blue
Unknown - Black
Dud - Red

2010 Draft
Round Pick Overall Name Position College
1 4 4 Trent Williams OT
4 5 103 Perry Riley LB
6 5 174 Dennis Morris TE
7 12 219 Terrence Austin WR
7 22 229 Erik Cook G
7 24 231 Selvish Capers* OT


2011 Draft
Round Pick Overall Name Position
1 16 16 Ryan Kerrigan DE
2 9 41 Jarvis Jenkins DT
3 15 79 Leonard Hankerson WR
4 8 105 Roy Helu RB
5 15 146 DeJon Gomes S
5 24 155 Niles Paul WR
6 12 177 Evan Royster RB
6 13 178 Aldrick Robinson WR
7 10 213 Brandyn Thompson CB
7 14 217 Maurice Hurt OT
7 21 224 Markus White* DE
7 50 253 Chris Neild DT


2012 Draft
Round Pick Overall Name Position
1 2 2 Robert Griffin III QB
3 8 71 Josh LeRibeus OG
4 7 102 Kirk Cousins QB
4 24 119 Keenan Robinson ILB
5 6 141 Adam Gettis OG
6 3 173 Alfred Morris RB
6 23 193 Tom Compton OT
7 6 213 Richard Crawford CB
7 10 217 Jordan Bernstine S

To me, it looks like Shanahan's drafts have been largely successful. He's drafted some studs, ALOT of contributers, and very few duds. In fact, every player he's drafted in 2011 and 2012 is on an NFL roster and contributing in some fashion. Compare that to anything this organization has had in the last 20 years and explain how Shanahan's drafts have not been lightyears better.

[MTK]

The "Shanaplan" is just a term used to basically say are you on board with this regime and the direction we're headed.

I didn't think that was hard to figure out. Sorry for the confusion.

[los panda]

the shanaplan is a 5 point plan, it will have it's own wiki page shortly

[Lotus]

Don't we already have a Shanaplan thread?

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Supposedly, our scouts and personnel guys under BA/MS are quite good, right? SS has said this repeatedly. And BA is a smart guy, I'd expect him to rely on their expertise regarding personnel and probably promote someone within, but absolutely I want BA at the top of the pyramid. Here again, he's said to have done wonders for the culture around Redskins Park. Does he bring in another personnel guy? Sure, whatever.

The larger point is to seperate coaching from personnel. Mike will never go for that, and I do not believe he can build a contender wearing the personnel hat, period. So you say Mike goes to personnel full time, and Kyle becomes HC. I asked the question in another thread and nobody tried to answer it, because the answer would be a fake: is Kyle a leader of men or just another offensive guru? And what if he struggles as HC? Does daddy fire him? It's a really, really stupid position to put yourself in as a franchise. In fact, I think it's unheard of, and for good reason.

I think it's funny there's a whole thread about a "Shanaplan" but there isn't a single person who can say what that plan has been, is today, or will be down the road. Just a lot of conjecture. But again, we know certain things. We know Mike thinks he knows best about personnel and will always want to be that guy. We know he "misses" a lot defensively. We know his last stop, Denver, isn't missing him in the least right now.

The arguments made against Reid were really shallow. His big screw up, not even mentioned btw, was betting on the wrong horse (Vick) who can't stay healthy and had a lower ceiling than many expected. And you can't ignore the injuries across his roster, most especially to Jason Peters and the whole oline. But more than anything, he's experienced the worst possible tragedy. It would be unreal, almost disturbing if he weren't showing signs of weariness and lack of focus this season. I don't know how some of you blow this off...hopefully it's just the kool-aid talking and not serious thought.

But yeah, I'd take a legit FO structure coupled with Reid or a handful of other HCs over the mysterious Shanaplan. We're facing two years of limited resources with an HC/GM that hasn't been able to develop a single defensive player selected outside the first two rounds, and we've seen myriad FA screw ups. It's not just McNabb. There's Brown. There's Doughty and Williams starting at safety because we bet on a dope head and a guy who hasn't been healthy in years. There's an oline that struggled mightily to pass protect when basically at full health, and now we'll see where that goes. A lot of this goes back to opportunity cost. How much better could the defense be, and even the offense, if we hadn't blown up the entire defense that still today isn't as good as the one Mike inherited?

I think what we saw is a lot of one step forward, two steps back during Mike's first two years, though this season looks like two steps forward, one step back. We got RG and the offense clicking, but the secondary fell into the toilet and the defense was a huge liability up until recently.

Goat there will always be someone somewhere that is better at something. No team in any sport is perfect from the top on down. However if it aint broke donr fix it. Six weeks ago i think your argument about changes might have been worth atleast listening to but now? I have always said that winning will bring praise - confidence - and belief in a future. The only thing that still bothered me was - is it just rg-3? In other words - was RG-3 saving jobs, and could this organization be built better suited for RG-3 to reach his absolute ceiling for success - although that even seemed silly because of what RG-3 was already accomplishing. Though it was still a thought that maybe someone could even get more out of him. After last week when our rookie backup QB won a road game and a crucial road game at that everything imo has changed. Even our defense has been pretty damn good over these five weeks. As a matter of fact minus the fourth quarter against Dallas they have been awesome. So instead of looking at the cap penalty or personell problems on Defense as a burden look at it like this......we are winning NOW. We are on the cusp of winning the divvision. In year Five of the Shanaplan we will have players on D and we will have our capspace back. We will have a core group of incredibly talented and young skill position players. We will have injured players like Rak and Carriker and Davis and BW back in the mix. In five weeks the plan has completely turned around and taken shape before our very eyes.