Campbell's numbers dont lie

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

With a yards per attempt of 7.8, I think we need to reconsider this notion that all JC does is throw dump offs. It's just not the case this year. Plus if you've watched the games at all you know what the deal is. If you're paying attention that is.

I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
"short passes" denote short throws with YAC as determined by play-by-play commentator

NYG - 1 intermediate pass completed, 1 deep pass completed
1Q: 1-1, 7 yds
1 short pass (7 yds on 3rd and 18); ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted
2Q: 6-10, 106 yds, 1 INT, 1 FUMBLE for TD;
5 short passes; 1 intermediate pass completed (12yds thru the air, ARE runs for 22 after a broken tackle); ZERO deep passes completed
3Q: 5-7, 37 yds
5 short passes; ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted
4Q: 6-8, 61 yds, 1TD
5 short passes; 1 deep pass completed for 17yd-TD with 1:37 left in the game

STL - 3 intermediate passes completed; 1 deep completed
1Q: 6-10, 52 yds
5 short passes, 1 intermediate passes (15); ZERO deep passes completed
2Q: 9-15, 96 yds
7 short passes, 1 intermediate pass (15); 1 deep pass to Moss for 21
3Q: 4-5, 47yds
4 short passes, 1 intermediate pass to ARE; ZERO deep passes attemped
4Q: 4-6, 47yds
4 short passes (25yd screen pass to betts); ZERO intermediate or deep balls completed

DET - 3 intermediate passes (2 against prevent), 3 deep passes (1 against prevent)
1Q: 6-8, 80yds <--good first drive
5 short passes (1 Moss ran for 21 after breaking tackle); 1 deep pass to Thomas (18 yds)
2Q: 2-5, 21yd
2 short passes in flat with 5 YAC; ZERO intermediate or deep passes completed
3Q: 4-7, 99 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT
2 short passes, 1 intermediate pass, 1 BEAUTIFUL deep 57yd TD to Moss
4Q: 15-21, 133yds, 1 TD (no huddle offense 8-8 72yds & 4-7 for 48)
12 short passes, 2 intermediate passes, 1 deep pass to moss for 21 yds against prevent defense

TOTAL (thru 3 games): 7 intermediate passes; 5 deep passes...a WHOLE lotta short or conservative throws

I count 57...Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand, but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS!

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by Rajmahal33

I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
BLAH BLAH BLAH

I count 57...Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand, but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS!

The whole premise of "deceptive facts" is nothing more than petty nitpicking to try to keep your pessimism intact. I do not hear you criticizing Tom Brady for hitting Welker on short slants over 100 times last season.

This is the NFL, not Madden on your Playstation. No team can succeed and win by chucking 40-50 yard bombs every play.

Campbell has shown maturity and efficiency. He HAS been limited by some questionable playcalling by Zorn, especially in the RZ, but he has played extremely well despite having plenty of TDs dropped and been forced to hand off in critical situations.

It sounds like there is nothing JC could do to make you stop hating him.

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by Buster

The whole premise of "deceptive facts" is nothing more than petty nitpicking to try to keep your pessimism intact. I do not hear you criticizing Tom Brady for hitting Welker on short slants over 100 times last season.

This is the NFL, not Madden on your Playstation. No team can succeed and win by chucking 40-50 yard bombs every play.

Campbell has shown maturity and efficiency. He HAS been limited by some questionable playcalling by Zorn, especially in the RZ, but he has played extremely well despite having plenty of TDs dropped and been forced to hand off in critical situations.

It sounds like there is nothing JC could do to make you stop hating him.

Buster, I think i made it pretty clear that i didn't expect them to bomb it a whole lot since this is a WCO (But go ahead and sensationalize my argument without offering anything but vaque generic statements that everyone knows on ur end).

I DO wanna see us complete a LOT more passes thru three games that are 15+ yards thru the air. If JC and the offense sticks with these numbers, it's gonna be much more of what we saw during the second half of last season. Let's also not forget that we played two of the WORST defenses in the NFL in St. Louis and Detroit!

Matty, i'll agree that scrutinizing their stats would probably show weaknesses in their game, but when you see QB's like Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rivers stretch the field a whole lot more than we do and have comparable yards per attempt numbers and completion percentages it seems like they take more risks (and ultimately get more rewards). For every three 10 yard plays that JC completes, they are getting a 25 yard play down the field (and maybe missing one as well). Overall, they are scoring more TD's and winning more games...

I will give u that it's still early in the season...so we will see

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Rajmahal33

Buster, I think i made it pretty clear that i didn't expect them to bomb it a whole lot since this is a WCO (But go ahead and sensationalize my argument without offering anything but vaque generic statements that everyone knows on ur end).

I DO wanna see us complete a LOT more passes thru three games that are 15+ yards thru the air. If JC and the offense sticks with these numbers, it's gonna be much more of what we saw during the second half of last season. Let's also not forget that we played two of the WORST defenses in the NFL in St. Louis and Detroit!

Matty, i'll agree that scrutinizing their stats would probably show weaknesses in their game, but when you see QB's like Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rivers stretch the field a whole lot more than we do and have comparable yards per attempt numbers and completion percentages it seems like they take more risks (and ultimately get more rewards). For every three 10 yard plays that JC completes, they are getting a 25 yard play down the field (and maybe missing one as well). Overall, they are scoring more TD's and winning more games...

I will give u that it's still early in the season...so we will see

If Campbell had Russell's or Delhomme's numbers you'd have a point...in the mean time just stop going out of your way to make Campbell look bad.

Again, I don't understand the logic of placing the blame on a single player. It is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this board (second only to people's outright hate for JC). Shit, you don't see anyone ranting about CP having a terrible year (b/c he's not Jason Campbell).

[dmvskinzfan08]

Originally Posted by Rajmahal33

I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
"short passes" denote short throws with YAC as determined by play-by-play commentator

NYG - 1 intermediate pass completed, 1 deep pass completed
1Q: 1-1, 7 yds
1 short pass (7 yds on 3rd and 18); ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted
2Q: 6-10, 106 yds, 1 INT, 1 FUMBLE for TD;
5 short passes; 1 intermediate pass completed (12yds thru the air, ARE runs for 22 after a broken tackle); ZERO deep passes completed
3Q: 5-7, 37 yds
5 short passes; ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted
4Q: 6-8, 61 yds, 1TD
5 short passes; 1 deep pass completed for 17yd-TD with 1:37 left in the game

STL - 3 intermediate passes completed; 1 deep completed
1Q: 6-10, 52 yds
5 short passes, 1 intermediate passes (15); ZERO deep passes completed
2Q: 9-15, 96 yds
7 short passes, 1 intermediate pass (15); 1 deep pass to Moss for 21
3Q: 4-5, 47yds
4 short passes, 1 intermediate pass to ARE; ZERO deep passes attemped
4Q: 4-6, 47yds
4 short passes (25yd screen pass to betts); ZERO intermediate or deep balls completed

DET - 3 intermediate passes (2 against prevent), 3 deep passes (1 against prevent)
1Q: 6-8, 80yds <--good first drive
5 short passes (1 Moss ran for 21 after breaking tackle); 1 deep pass to Thomas (18 yds)
2Q: 2-5, 21yd
2 short passes in flat with 5 YAC; ZERO intermediate or deep passes completed
3Q: 4-7, 99 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT
2 short passes, 1 intermediate pass, 1 BEAUTIFUL deep 57yd TD to Moss
4Q: 15-21, 133yds, 1 TD (no huddle offense 8-8 72yds & 4-7 for 48)
12 short passes, 2 intermediate passes, 1 deep pass to moss for 21 yds against prevent defense

TOTAL (thru 3 games): 7 intermediate passes; 5 deep passes...a WHOLE lotta short or conservative throws

I count 57...Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand, but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS!

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Rajmahal33

I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
"short passes" denote short throws with YAC as determined by play-by-play commentator

NYG - 1 intermediate pass completed, 1 deep pass completed
1Q: 1-1, 7 yds
1 short pass (7 yds on 3rd and 18); ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted
2Q: 6-10, 106 yds, 1 INT, 1 FUMBLE for TD;
5 short passes; 1 intermediate pass completed (12yds thru the air, ARE runs for 22 after a broken tackle); ZERO deep passes completed
3Q: 5-7, 37 yds
5 short passes; ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted
4Q: 6-8, 61 yds, 1TD
5 short passes; 1 deep pass completed for 17yd-TD with 1:37 left in the game

STL - 3 intermediate passes completed; 1 deep completed
1Q: 6-10, 52 yds
5 short passes, 1 intermediate passes (15); ZERO deep passes completed
2Q: 9-15, 96 yds
7 short passes, 1 intermediate pass (15); 1 deep pass to Moss for 21
3Q: 4-5, 47yds
4 short passes, 1 intermediate pass to ARE; ZERO deep passes attemped
4Q: 4-6, 47yds
4 short passes (25yd screen pass to betts); ZERO intermediate or deep balls completed

DET - 3 intermediate passes (2 against prevent), 3 deep passes (1 against prevent)
1Q: 6-8, 80yds <--good first drive
5 short passes (1 Moss ran for 21 after breaking tackle); 1 deep pass to Thomas (18 yds)
2Q: 2-5, 21yd
2 short passes in flat with 5 YAC; ZERO intermediate or deep passes completed
3Q: 4-7, 99 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT
2 short passes, 1 intermediate pass, 1 BEAUTIFUL deep 57yd TD to Moss
4Q: 15-21, 133yds, 1 TD (no huddle offense 8-8 72yds & 4-7 for 48)
12 short passes, 2 intermediate passes, 1 deep pass to moss for 21 yds against prevent defense

TOTAL (thru 3 games): 7 intermediate passes; 5 deep passes...a WHOLE lotta short or conservative throws

I count 57...Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand, but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS!

Since you use size to emphasize points you deem important I figured I'd follow your path. Obviously you don't understand the nature of the WCO. The WCO is built on short passes and RAC/YAC. That is the entire premise of the WCO. If you see the WCO tree we are a direct branch of, Walsh (short passes and YAC) to Holmgren (short passes and YAC) to Zorn (short passes and YAC). It's really hard to take you seriously when your logic is so fundamentally flawed.

I have never seen anyone on this board call JC an elite or great QB, but the other spectrum has been amazing. To read it around here and other places, you'd think he's the second coming of Heath Shuler.

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Bottom line, whatever you think of Campbell, name one other NFL team that would sign him to be their guaranteed, bona fide starter next year if he were to leave the Skins. At best, he would be offered a chance to compete for the starting job on another shitty team. Most teams would sign him to be a backup. Just my opinion.

I'm pretty sure Carolina, St. Louis, SF, Oakland, Cleveland, Buffalo and TB would consider him an immediate upgrade to what they have. Which brings up another point. If Campbell leaves next year, who do you propose becomes the starter? Please spare me with the injured 3rd stringer who barely held onto his roster spot thanks to the aforementioned injury.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'm pretty sure Carolina, St. Louis, SF, Oakland, Cleveland, Buffalo and TB would consider him an immediate upgrade to what they have. Which brings up another point. If Campbell leaves next year, who do you propose becomes the starter? Please spare me with the injured 3rd stringer who barely held onto his roster spot thanks to the aforementioned injury.

This is the part that kills me about some of the fans...they bitch about not building through the draft or building through the trenches, blah blah blah. If Campbell gets run out of town successfully, basically we will spend our resources on a new QB, instead of spending them on offensive linemen and linebackers.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

This is the part that kills me about some of the fans...they bitch about not building through the draft or building through the trenches, blah blah blah. If Campbell gets run out of town successfully, basically we will spend our resources on a new QB, instead of spending them on offensive linemen and linebackers.

And I know I've been guilty of it by giving up on Zorn already, but we've got a bunch of mini-Snyders who hate the actual Snyder.

Some 'fans' have already given up on Campbell, despite what he does. If he comes out this week and goes 21-30, 275, 3 TD then it will be 'well yeah, he did it against the Bucs, so what.' It's frustrating but it is what it is.

Among our greatest needs for change are:
Play calling on both sides of the ball
OL
LB
RB
depth at CB

QB play is FAR from our biggest problem but the Madden generation can't comprehend that.

[skins89moss]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

This is the part that kills me about some of the fans...they bitch about not building through the draft or building through the trenches, blah blah blah. If Campbell gets run out of town successfully, basically we will spend our resources on a new QB, instead of spending them on offensive linemen and linebackers.

Completely agree with you on this Ruhskins. We let JC walk and if we have a top 10 pick what do we draft? Oh let ,me guess a QB ( McCoy,Tebow,Bradford) then he can get killed with this marshmellow line and no running game. I guess we still don't draft O-Lineman again like years past. Always chasing the the next franchise QB BLAH BLAH BLAH.:headbange

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Since you use size to emphasize points you deem important I figured I'd follow your path. Obviously you don't understand the nature of the WCO. The WCO is built on short passes and RAC/YAC. That is the entire premise of the WCO. If you see the WCO tree we are a direct branch of, Walsh (short passes and YAC) to Holmgren (short passes and YAC) to Zorn (short passes and YAC). It's really hard to take you seriously when your logic is so fundamentally flawed.

I have never seen anyone on this board call JC an elite or great QB, but the other spectrum has been amazing. To read it around here and other places, you'd think he's the second coming of Heath Shuler.


I'm pretty sure Carolina, St. Louis, SF, Oakland, Cleveland, Buffalo and TB would consider him an immediate upgrade to what they have. Which brings up another point. If Campbell leaves next year, who do you propose becomes the starter? Please spare me with the injured 3rd stringer who barely held onto his roster spot thanks to the aforementioned injury.

Paintrain (and whoever else thinks that I'm sayin JC is THE problem). I AM NOT!

I was responding to Matty's point that JC has turned over a new leaf and is not just throwing short passes. I was refuting that (with a little bit of statistical anaylsis, b/c its a slow day at work) and trying to prove that he STILL throws short passes to account for most of his production. He's playing within the WCO system. Thats what is expected of him...that's fine.

However while playing within the system in a WCO, ur completion percentages will go up b/c u aren't taking as many risks. Because of this, I was just rationalizing why JC was ranked so high in completion percentages and yards compared to elite QB's, even though our offense has disproportionately played so poorly (especially at scoring TD's).

I don't need you or anyone else to explain to me the concept of a WCO...btw u glaringly left out one basic principle of the WCO. Dominate Time of Possession, which the skins have not in our two losses. (A possible reason why our defense has underperformed)

[Paintrain]

I'm so bored with the 'blame Campbell' rants. As much as I hate the 'what if' game, does anyone think we'd be in any different boat with Cutler or Sanchez? Cutler would probably have 4 TD and 10 INT and if we think Zorn's playcalling is lame now, imagine him with a rookie QB!?! Campbell is our QB for the rest of the season, unless he gets injured. If you don't like it, watch bowling on Sundays until next fall.

[warriorzpath]

Bottomline is- this team sucks right now, including Campbell. It all starts with the coach and the qb.

The numbers don't tell the entire truth- Campbell is very inconsistent and very unreliable at crucial times.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Bottomline is- this team sucks right now, including Campbell. It all starts with the coach and the qb.

The numbers don't tell the entire truth- Campbell is very inconsistent and very unreliable at crucial times.

I don't lay the blame at his feet, but the QB always has to be part of the conversation when an Offense is sputtering. He's average to good. He does some things well - avoids INTs, is accurate when he can drop back and throw, can run effectively when the play breaks down. But is deficient in other areas - inaccurate with deep balls, has trouble with touch passes (seems to throw out of bounds a lot on sideline and fade passes), and is woefully inaccurate when he has to throw on the run or even after moving a couple of steps in any direction, has poor pocket presence, is not elusive, does not take reasonable chances (last in pass interference calls last year).

Bottom line, whatever you think of Campbell, name one other NFL team that would sign him to be their guaranteed, bona fide starter next year if he were to leave the Skins. At best, he would be offered a chance to compete for the starting job on another shitty team. Most teams would sign him to be a backup. Just my opinion.

All that said, he's not the reason the Skins suck, but he's not good enough to compensate for other deficiencies on Offense (poor coaching, average pass blocking, inept running game, etc.).

[warriorzpath]

I was hoping that Campbell would play well this year, but so far he isn't. I said earlier in preseason that there's a fine line with playing a good game versus not (playing a good game). The difference is the plays that are made that either win or lose games. He made a few plays that definitely contributed to losing the games with Detroit and New York.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

I was hoping that Campbell would play well this year, but so far he isn't. I said earlier in preseason that there's a fine line with playing a good game versus not (playing a good game). The difference is the plays that are made that either win or lose games. He made a few plays that definitely contributed to losing the games with Detroit and New York.

You're obviously NOT watching the games very closely. He is playing very well...unlike most of the team.