NFL Training Camp thread!

JoeRedskin · 09-09-2015, 03:30 PM

Wow.

Quote:

Inside a room accessible only to Belichick and a few others, they found a library of scouting material containing videotapes of opponents' signals, with detailed notes matching signals to plays for many teams going back seven seasons. Among them were handwritten diagrams of the defensive signals of the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the notes used in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game won by the Patriots 24-17.

From Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and New England Patriots apart

RedskinJake · 09-09-2015, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Inside a room accessible only to Belichick and a few others, they found a library of scouting material containing videotapes of opponents' signals, with detailed notes matching signals to plays for many teams going back seven seasons. Among them were handwritten diagrams of the defensive signals of the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the notes used in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game won by the Patriots 24-17.]

Don't think for a second that you won't find the same in every baseball scouting office in the country..

Hijinx · 09-09-2015, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedskinJake

Don't think for a second that you won't find the same in every baseball scouting office in the country..

Again, I think that is just a throwaway line, that doesn't mean anything. People say "everyone does it", but then can offer no proof to that. Nor can they explain why no other team gets caught. Or that NFL teams take special precautions vs the Pats that they do not take vs everybody else.

JoeRedskin · 09-09-2015, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedskinJake

Don't think for a second that you won't find the same in every baseball scouting office in the country..

As Hijinx said, then show me someone else who got caught.

Also, I don't give two damns if "everybody does it," there is right and wrong. BB knew it was wrong, Goodell knew it was wrong (everything in the room was destroyed, shredded, etc. almost immediately).

I acknowledge the existence of gray areas. Hell, as a lawyer, that's where I spend most of my time - if everything was clear cut, I'd be out of job. If all a person has is the "everybody does it" defense, however, they are intellectually lazy and a moral coward.

Not to put too fine a point on it.

RedskinJake · 09-09-2015, 04:32 PM

My point isn't so much that "everyone does it" as much as "no one really cares".. unless you are a specific team from the Boston area.

We live in a society today where everyone is told that they are just as good as the other guy so when the other guy is beating them, then cheating is the obvious reason why. Doing those things helps you gain an advantage, sure but the gains are small. BB is competitive. Competitive to a fault. If he can get a .01% advantage doing something he will do it. I respect that. These aren't new ideas in football.. They just haven't been a big deal until it came to a team that wins a lot.

We know for a fact that Jerry Rice used stickum, that other teams have tampered with radios, that other QBs have had air taken out of footballs. None of these things has bothered anyone except when the Patriots were the benefactor. Then all of a sudden people want to believe that those are the reasons they or their team were beat.. There are 1000 variables each week. Gaining a small advantage here or there isn't going to change the outcome of a game nearly as much as everyone thinks.

Taping walkthroughs? OK.. that one is a no-go..

over the mountain · 09-09-2015, 05:32 PM

It didnt effect games - Rams, Eagles, panthers and Steelers disagree

a. "Our players came in after that first half and said it was like [the Patriots] were in our huddle," a Panthers source says. During halftime -- New England led 14-10 -- Carolina's offensive coordinator, Dan Henning, changed game plans because of worries the Patriots had too close a read on Carolina's schemes. And, in the second half, the Panthers moved the ball at will before losing 32-29 on a last-second field goal. "Do I have any tape to prove they cheated?" this source says. "No. But I'm convinced they did it."

b. Ward told reporters that Patriots inside information about Steelers play calling helped New England upset Pittsburgh 24-17 in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game. "Oh, they knew," Ward, now an NBC analyst who didn't return messages for this story, said after Spygate broke. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

c. January 2005 AFC Championship Game, which was won by the Patriots 41-27, came from stolen signals because Pittsburgh hadn't changed its signals all year, sources say, and the two teams had played a game in the regular season that Walsh told investigators he believes was taped. "They knew the signals, so they knew when it went in what the coverage was and how to attack it," says a former Steelers coach. "I've had a couple of guys on my teams from New England, and they've told me those things."

d. "To this day, some believe that we were robbed by the Patriots not playing by the rules ... and knowing our game plan," a former Eagles football operations staffer says.

Everyone was doing it - not to BB level

"It got out of control," a former Patriots assistant coach says.

A former Patriots employee who was directly involved in the taping system says "it helped our offense a lot," especially in divisional games in which there was a short amount of time between the first and second matchups, making it harder for opposing coaches to change signals.

Several of them acknowledge that during pregame warm-ups, a low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team's offense.

Numerous former employees say the Patriots would have someone rummage through the visiting team hotel for playbooks or scouting reports.

"Why would they go to such great lengths for so long to do it and hide it if it didn't work?" a longtime former executive says.

RedskinJake · 09-09-2015, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by over the mountain

It didnt effect games - Rams, Eagles, panthers and Steelers disagree

a. "Our players came in after that first half and said it was like [the Patriots] were in our huddle," a Panthers source says. During halftime -- New England led 14-10 -- Carolina's offensive coordinator, Dan Henning, changed game plans because of worries the Patriots had too close a read on Carolina's schemes. And, in the second half, the Panthers moved the ball at will before losing 32-29 on a last-second field goal. "Do I have any tape to prove they cheated?" this source says. "No. But I'm convinced they did it."

b. Ward told reporters that Patriots inside information about Steelers play calling helped New England upset Pittsburgh 24-17 in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game. "Oh, they knew," Ward, now an NBC analyst who didn't return messages for this story, said after Spygate broke. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

c. January 2005 AFC Championship Game, which was won by the Patriots 41-27, came from stolen signals because Pittsburgh hadn't changed its signals all year, sources say, and the two teams had played a game in the regular season that Walsh told investigators he believes was taped. "They knew the signals, so they knew when it went in what the coverage was and how to attack it," says a former Steelers coach. "I've had a couple of guys on my teams from New England, and they've told me those things."

d. "To this day, some believe that we were robbed by the Patriots not playing by the rules ... and knowing our game plan," a former Eagles football operations staffer says.

Everyone was doing it - not to BB level

"It got out of control," a former Patriots assistant coach says.

A former Patriots employee who was directly involved in the taping system says "it helped our offense a lot," especially in divisional games in which there was a short amount of time between the first and second matchups, making it harder for opposing coaches to change signals.

Several of them acknowledge that during pregame warm-ups, a low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team's offense.

Numerous former employees say the Patriots would have someone rummage through the visiting team hotel for playbooks or scouting reports.

"Why would they go to such great lengths for so long to do it and hide it if it didn't work?" a longtime former executive says.

I'm not saying it didn't help but I question just how much it really changed the outcome of games.

Call it cheating if you want but there isn't a team in professional sports that isn't doing some of those types of things I assure you.. Has BB taken it too far? Maybe but he didn't invent this stuff.. He's just the one who keeps getting caught and the one people are more than happy to hang out to dry. But he's not the only one..

That Guy · 09-09-2015, 08:14 PM

yeah, we exceeded the salary cap in an uncapped year, such cheating. oh and frank wychek got busted for PEDs in 1994.

pretty weak stuff.

calia · 09-09-2015, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

yeah, we exceeded the salary cap in an uncapped year, such cheating. oh and frank wychek got busted for PEDs in 1994.

pretty weak stuff.

No kidding. We don't even cheat very well!

RedskinJake · 09-09-2015, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

yeah, we exceeded the salary cap in an uncapped year, such cheating. oh and frank wychek got busted for PEDs in 1994.

pretty weak stuff.

I'm still pissed off about that one.. How did we exceed a cap that didn't exist? I was absolutely sure that was going to the courts.

kingj · 09-09-2015, 10:30 PM

Bradford and eagles have broken off contract extension talks.

RedskinJake · 09-09-2015, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingj

Bradford and eagles have broken off contract extension talks.

Saw that this morning.. for a guy with a saran wrap ACL, he's taking a big risk.. but possibly with a big payoff if he can play well and stay healthy for a while..

donofriose · 09-09-2015, 10:38 PM

Interesting quote from that cheating website:

Said former Pittsburgh Steelers head coach Bill Cowher, "We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone's signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that." Admitted former Dallas Cowboys head coach Jimmy Johnson: "When I came into the NFL, back in 1989, I talked to a Kansas City scout and he said, 'Here's what we do, we videotape the opposing team's signals and then we sync it up with the game film.' So I did it." Bragged, former Denver Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan: "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game, with any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter

Also....
Prior to the September 6, 2006 memo and, 2007 follow up, from NFL head of football operations Ray Anderson, there was no league restriction on filming location, which is the reason the memo was sent.

And I find it interesting that the only time the skins made the playoffs or any noise in the NFL, they had to cheat the salary cap.

RedskinJake · 09-09-2015, 11:20 PM

Renaldo Wynn..

"You know why we fell short in that AFC Championship game? After that I ended up getting coached by Gregg Williams ... First thing he said when he came in the door was, 'Hey, you know why you lost?' With a lot of other explicit words with that. He said he had our playbook. Gregg Williams had our playbook. Our game-plan on offense. [He] had our playbook."

kingj · 09-10-2015, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedskinJake

Renaldo Wynn..

"You know why we fell short in that AFC Championship game? After that I ended up getting coached by Gregg Williams ... First thing he said when he came in the door was, 'Hey, you know why you lost?' With a lot of other explicit words with that. He said he had our playbook. Gregg Williams had our playbook. Our game-plan on offense. [He] had our playbook."

And I think the pats being the most extreme in cheating is what the Brady thing is all about.

Looks like the nfl is deciding to clean up the league and the pats are its poster boy. I got no sympathy for the pats as they are arrogant and have cheated the most if you base it on reports/leaks.

It's amazing now with social media and how everything leaks, that now all of a sudden NFL wants to clean up its act on and off the field. Next thing you know the NBA will stop rigging drafts

09-09-2015, 04:32 PM	#5
RedskinJake Special Teams Join Date: May 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 319	Re: NFL Training Camp thread! My point isn't so much that "everyone does it" as much as "no one really cares".. unless you are a specific team from the Boston area. We live in a society today where everyone is told that they are just as good as the other guy so when the other guy is beating them, then cheating is the obvious reason why. Doing those things helps you gain an advantage, sure but the gains are small. BB is competitive. Competitive to a fault. If he can get a .01% advantage doing something he will do it. I respect that. These aren't new ideas in football.. They just haven't been a big deal until it came to a team that wins a lot. We know for a fact that Jerry Rice used stickum, that other teams have tampered with radios, that other QBs have had air taken out of footballs. None of these things has bothered anyone except when the Patriots were the benefactor. Then all of a sudden people want to believe that those are the reasons they or their team were beat.. There are 1000 variables each week. Gaining a small advantage here or there isn't going to change the outcome of a game nearly as much as everyone thinks. Taping walkthroughs? OK.. that one is a no-go..

09-09-2015, 05:32 PM	#6
over the mountain Playmaker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: close to the edge Posts: 4,926	Re: NFL Training Camp thread! It didnt effect games - Rams, Eagles, panthers and Steelers disagree a. "Our players came in after that first half and said it was like [the Patriots] were in our huddle," a Panthers source says. During halftime -- New England led 14-10 -- Carolina's offensive coordinator, Dan Henning, changed game plans because of worries the Patriots had too close a read on Carolina's schemes. And, in the second half, the Panthers moved the ball at will before losing 32-29 on a last-second field goal. "Do I have any tape to prove they cheated?" this source says. "No. But I'm convinced they did it." b. Ward told reporters that Patriots inside information about Steelers play calling helped New England upset Pittsburgh 24-17 in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game. "Oh, they knew," Ward, now an NBC analyst who didn't return messages for this story, said after Spygate broke. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff." c. January 2005 AFC Championship Game, which was won by the Patriots 41-27, came from stolen signals because Pittsburgh hadn't changed its signals all year, sources say, and the two teams had played a game in the regular season that Walsh told investigators he believes was taped. "They knew the signals, so they knew when it went in what the coverage was and how to attack it," says a former Steelers coach. "I've had a couple of guys on my teams from New England, and they've told me those things." d. "To this day, some believe that we were robbed by the Patriots not playing by the rules ... and knowing our game plan," a former Eagles football operations staffer says. Everyone was doing it - not to BB level "It got out of control," a former Patriots assistant coach says. A former Patriots employee who was directly involved in the taping system says "it helped our offense a lot," especially in divisional games in which there was a short amount of time between the first and second matchups, making it harder for opposing coaches to change signals. Several of them acknowledge that during pregame warm-ups, a low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team's offense. Numerous former employees say the Patriots would have someone rummage through the visiting team hotel for playbooks or scouting reports. "Why would they go to such great lengths for so long to do it and hide it if it didn't work?" a longtime former executive says.

09-09-2015, 08:14 PM	#8
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,620	Re: NFL Training Camp thread! yeah, we exceeded the salary cap in an uncapped year, such cheating. oh and frank wychek got busted for PEDs in 1994. pretty weak stuff.

09-09-2015, 10:30 PM	#11
kingj Special Teams Join Date: Jun 2015 Age: 55 Posts: 226	Re: NFL Training Camp thread! Bradford and eagles have broken off contract extension talks.

09-09-2015, 10:38 PM	#13
donofriose The Starter Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 2,097	Re: NFL Training Camp thread! Interesting quote from that cheating website: Said former Pittsburgh Steelers head coach Bill Cowher, "We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone's signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that." Admitted former Dallas Cowboys head coach Jimmy Johnson: "When I came into the NFL, back in 1989, I talked to a Kansas City scout and he said, 'Here's what we do, we videotape the opposing team's signals and then we sync it up with the game film.' So I did it." Bragged, former Denver Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan: "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game, with any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter Also.... Prior to the September 6, 2006 memo and, 2007 follow up, from NFL head of football operations Ray Anderson, there was no league restriction on filming location, which is the reason the memo was sent. And I find it interesting that the only time the skins made the playoffs or any noise in the NFL, they had to cheat the salary cap.

09-09-2015, 11:20 PM	#14
RedskinJake Special Teams Join Date: May 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 319	Re: NFL Training Camp thread! Renaldo Wynn.. "You know why we fell short in that AFC Championship game? After that I ended up getting coached by Gregg Williams ... First thing he said when he came in the door was, 'Hey, you know why you lost?' With a lot of other explicit words with that. He said he had our playbook. Gregg Williams had our playbook. Our game-plan on offense. [He] had our playbook."

NFL Training Camp thread!

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