Tom "Iceman" Brady

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Thank you wilsowwilso, you beat me to the response..

GTripp0012 seems to create his own definitions like choke. 'You can only choke when your are the favorite.' Says who?

Peyton Manning, 1st player picked in his draft, 2004 NFL CO-MVP of the entire league, highest paid player in the NFL and by your own words(GTripp0012) is the BEST Qb in the NFL, gets a 31.3b rating in a playoff game and that is not choking? LOL! He has a 5-6 career playoff record.
When you put all those facts together that is the definition of choking.

If a rookie, second string, sixth round pick Qb makes it to the playoffs and loses bad that is not choking. But the Great, Awesome, #1 QB Peyton Manning does it and looks really bad in the process, that is choking. If Manning had just a mediocre/average game in the loss, that would not be choking. But he had an AWFUL game.
That is choking.
Thats what happens when you are the highest paid QB in thte NFL, the expectation is higher.
The highest paid QB should not be getting a 31.3 QB rating in his most important game of his career.
He chokes in big games. That is a fact.

So by your logic, did Tom Brady also choke last week with his unimpressive QB rating? Or is the choke line set arbitrarily somewhere between Brady's bad game and Manning's bad game to make your point.

I dont think QB rating is the best way to say a guy choked in a game, because you only have 30 or so passes to judge it. A guy throws a pass that gets tipped by the D and dropped by a guy who it hits in his breadbasket, and we are talking about a 30 point swing in QB rating (This play actually happened to Brady this week). Over a whole season, QB rating can be a decent stat. But for indiviual games, too much can happen for it to accurately display how well a guy played. 90 represents a better game than 0, but 60 and 70 say almost exactly the same thing.

Although it's nice to finally have something to judge a player by brought into the arguement, even if its QB rating.

But if Mannings 31.3 is choking every time, as you flat try to defend, then I think Brady's game last week also counts as choking.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

Peyton Manning's career playoff record is 5-6! Pretty mediocre for pressure situations especially seeing as how two of those five wins are from this year when he has been god awful!

Yeah, thats worse than I would expect from Manning, but what happens during the game is more significant in predicting future games than what the outcome was. So he lost six game...why should I think he'll ever lose again?

(Even though that last question is rhetorical, I still want you to answer it. If you can, that means we are at least on the same page.)

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yeah, thats worse than I would expect from Manning, but what happens during the game is more significant in predicting future games than what the outcome was. So he lost six game...why should I think he'll ever lose again?

(Even though that last question is rhetorical, I still want you to answer it. If you can, that means we are at least on the same page.)

I'm sure I have no idea what in the world you are rambling on about. Can you please translate this post for me? I guess this means we are not on the same page.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

I'm sure I have no idea what in the world you are rambling on about. Can you please translate this post for me? I guess this means we are not on the same page.

His record is 5-6. Fact. Does this mean he will win every playoff game the rest of his career? Does this mean that he will lose every playoff game the rest of his career? Basically, just tell me why his record of 5-6 in the playoff has significance to you.

If you are comparing it to Brady's 12-1 record, again we are getting into team statistics which have very little bearing on how good an individual is.

If you are trying to prove a different point with 5-6, please explain to me one more time what that point is.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

His record is 5-6. Fact. Does this mean he will win every playoff game the rest of his career? Does this mean that he will lose every playoff game the rest of his career? Basically, just tell me why his record of 5-6 in the playoff has significance to you.

If you are comparing it to Brady's 12-1 record, again we are getting into team statistics which have very little bearing on how good an individual is.

If you are trying to prove a different point with 5-6, please explain to me one more time what that point is.

You're... you're crazy man. I like you, but you're crazy... "Frank the Tank"

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

You're... you're crazy man. I like you, but you're crazy... "Frank the Tank"

I am crazy! Crazy about football!

Cool by me if you want to end this...but I thought for sure for as strong as your Brady>Manning opinion is, you'd have some interesting insight to back it up.

Guess not. Just a wing and a prayer.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I am crazy! Crazy about football!

Cool by me if you want to end this...but I thought for sure for as strong as your Brady>Manning opinion is, you'd have some interesting insight to back it up.

Guess not. Just a wing and a prayer.

Let's see I started this thread so I figure I've backed up my opinion plenty. The problem is you are "trying to end this" as you say with garbage arguments, nonsensical gibberish, absurd reasoning and plenty of smoke and mirrors. Let me ask you three questions? Do you always laugh at your own jokes? Were you on the high school jv debate team? Do you smoke Crank, Crack and or Ice? Obviously we can go on and on, but I promise you one of us will never budge in their argument and it's not me. Why don't we talk on Sunday night? It's a real big game in this debate. One more question. Is your last name Manning?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

Let's see I started this thread so I figure I've backed up my opinion plenty. The problem is you are "trying to end this" as you say with garbage arguments, nonsensical gibberish, absurd reasoning and plenty of smoke and mirrors. Let me ask you three questions? Do you always laugh at your own jokes? Were you on the high school jv debate team? Do you smoke Crank, Crack and or Ice? Obviously we can go on and on, but I promise you one of us will never budge in their argument and it's not me. Why don't we talk on Sunday night? It's a real big game in this debate. One more question. Is your last name Manning?

No, no, no, and uh, no. It's not Brunell either.

I'm a pretty crappy debater (as anyone in debate can plainly see). I just know my football and am passionate about it.

When did I try to end this? I asked you point blank why record was significant to future performance and have no answer yet. This post tells me that you simply don't understand my points. Either you aren't intelligent enough, or you simply don't want to stress yourself to think outside of the box woven for you by the talking heads, but thats not my place to decide that. Either way, we can't have a debate if you are unwilling to budge from your position under any circumstance.

Your arguement thus far reminds me of Dr. Z argueing that Monk shouldn't be in the hall. For a decade now, hes stated that people who catch 8 yd hitch routes for a living shouldnt be in the hall with no exception. It seems to be the only thing he ever says about Monk, and for whatever reason, many people agree with his weak postion.

You started this thread after Brady had a poor game. Already, I'm thinking you might have a tendency to misjudge QB performance, but who knows, you could have had some deep philosophical reasoning to back up why Brady is the games best QB.

So I inquired. I got the expected 3 rings arguement, explained to you exactly why that was worthless, then we moved on to the only slightly better team record debate, without ever touching my central point that Manning's performance is better. Even if you factor the playoffs in with his regular season production, his performance is still better. We then started talking exclusively playoffs, and all I got was the "record+this debate is over formula". If you truely think that Brady has some magical playoff power that seperates him from Manning (I don't), thats what we should be debating. I asked you about this point blank, and you've yet to respond.

It is to my knowledge at this point that you have nothing more to bring to this debate. Why debate it any further? If I'm wrong and you do have extra insight, this would be the time for it.

Thank you.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

It is to my knowledge at this point that you have nothing more to bring to this debate. Why debate it any further? If I'm wrong and you do have extra insight, this would be the time for it.

Thank you.

You might or might not be wrong. The problem is that you will never know. I can't believe you compared me to Dr. Z. I hate him!

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

You might or might not be wrong. The problem is that you will never know. I can't believe you compared me to Dr. Z. I hate him!

I hate him too.

Three cheers for common ground!

[The Huddle]

Wow. Still going? This thread farts cobwebs.

[wolfeskins]

there is a poll question on redskins.com that asks "if you were a GM starting a team who would be your pick at qb"

choices are brady, manning, breeze and grossman

brady is leading with 55.3 %
manning is 2nd with 29.6 %

[GiantsSuck703]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

His record is 5-6. Fact. Does this mean he will win every playoff game the rest of his career? Does this mean that he will lose every playoff game the rest of his career? Basically, just tell me why his record of 5-6 in the playoff has significance to you.

If you are comparing it to Brady's 12-1 record, again we are getting into team statistics which have very little bearing on how good an individual is.

If you are trying to prove a different point with 5-6, please explain to me one more time what that point is.

I dont get your argument, your basically saying that no matter how many clutch games Tom Brady has won that in your mind its discredited because his defense helped him win those games, although you then say that its Peyton Mannings defense, not his awful play in big games that has kept him from winning superbowls. Which to me, means your using your extremely obvious bias towards Peyton as your excuse for him being the better player. Your wrong, this isnt a matter of opinion, your just flat out wrong, Tom Brady has won the meaningless games and hes won the important games, hes a gamer and a former sixth round pick who had all the odds against him when he came into the league and basically took it over, hes not the most physically gifted QB, but hes a great leader and will carve up defenses like its nothing, i have seen nothing from Peyton Manning that makes me believe hes better than the 3-time superbowl champion Tom Brady.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by The Huddle

Wow. Still going? This thread farts cobwebs.

:headbange

[The Huddle]

Originally Posted by GiantsSuck703

I dont get your argument, your basically saying that no matter how many clutch games Tom Brady has won that in your mind its discredited because his defense helped him win those games, although you then say that its Peyton Mannings defense, not his awful play in big games that has kept him from winning superbowls. Which to me, means your using your extremely obvious bias towards Peyton as your excuse for him being the better player. Your wrong, this isnt a matter of opinion, your just flat out wrong, Tom Brady has won the meaningless games and hes won the important games, hes a gamer and a former sixth round pick who had all the odds against him when he came into the league and basically took it over, hes not the most physically gifted QB, but hes a great leader and will carve up defenses like its nothing, i have seen nothing from Peyton Manning that makes me believe hes better than the 3-time superbowl champion Tom Brady.

Exactly. The tired anti-Brady arguement boils down to:

Brady is good because of his team.
Manning is good in spite of his team.

Apparently Manning's stats were achieved without the benifit of an extremely talented offense designed to maximize his signature strength (his arm strength). It's all about Manning.

Meanwhile, the fact that the Pats are 12-1 in the playoffs with Brady says nothing about Brady.

Given a choice I guarantee you 2/3rds of the GMs in the NFL would take Brady over Manning if the goal was "winning a championship" and not "putting up gaudy stats".