8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues

[NLC1054]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

They can just tell the media practice is closed to reporters today, or during these hours it's closed, or you can watch practice on the field but can't enter the facilities today. There are many ways to deal with it. I don't know that having a cop keeping reporters away was really all that necessary

Yeah, I think that's what probably pissed him off the most. Having a workout that's closed to the media is understandable. Making someone feel like some sort of bass-ackwards criminal is not.

[hooskins]

They just pissed they are locked out of their jobs they want to lock others out too.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

They can just tell the media practice is closed to reporters today, or during these hours it's closed, or you can watch practice on the field but can't enter the facilities today. There are many ways to deal with it. I don't know that having a cop keeping reporters away was really all that necessary

I agree, they handled it all wrong.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

The salary cap has risen in 15 years from 34M to 123M. I guess, I see both sides as having greed as a part of the factor.

Yup but so has everything else,TV contracts, ticket prices,concessions....what was the pice of beer 15 years ago,parking is twice what it was.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Yup but so has everything else,TV contracts, ticket prices,concessions....what was the pice of beer 15 years ago,parking is twice what it was.

Plus if you look a the history of the NFL, the owners have been making out like bandits while the players were under paid. Russ Grimm made $60,000 base salary in the 83 Sb year. He was a 2nd or 3rd round pick, so he shouldn't not have been considered bottom of the barrel and making such a little amount.
This deal is really about the owners wanting to pay themselves a few million a year off the top. Despite the fact that their teams value doubles and triples over time. Greedy.

[NLC1054]

I don't think it's really greed on the players side. It's not like the player's are asking for money.

The owners are asking to take more of the players money off the top. I think the player's stance (which hasn't been effectively communicated, because DeMaurice Smith is a tool) is that they don't have a problem with giving the owners more money, IF there is a financial incentive and if the owners need it.

Thus far, the owners haven't provided any evidence that they are in such dire straits that they need more money. The owners know they don't have a leg to stand on in this fight. That's what the whole "they won't open their books" madness was about; the owners wouldn't open their books because they know if they did, their case for renegotiating the CBA. And despite it all, more and more reports have come out that state that the NFL and it's teams are making more money than ever and are still raising prices everywhere.

I think the player's are right to question the owner's motives. I just think they picked crappy representation. DeMaurice Smith is a lawyer. His answer to everything is going to be to litigate. He hasn't been effective in communicating that the players are in the right, and he hasn't been willing to come back to the table.

At least the owners are saying they want to be at the negotiating table. De Smith? He's taking shots over the bow in speeches in front of college students, and making sarcastic statements all the time. His methods are horrible and not in the best interest of the players he represents.

The whole reason that DeMaurice Smith was elected to be head of the NFLPA was because he was a lawyer and because the players knew it would come down to a lockout situation. Now, I think they're probably realizing that the lawyer is just going to do what lawyers do.

Jason Snelling asked why they're not sitting at the table, and I think a big part of that is because of De Smith. I think he's misled the players in this whole mess. The players have the better position and Smith has been balls at effectively communicating that.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by NLC1054

I don't think it's really greed on the players side. It's not like the player's are asking for money.

The owners are asking to take more of the players money off the top. I think the player's stance (which hasn't been effectively communicated, because DeMaurice Smith is a tool) is that they don't have a problem with giving the owners more money, IF there is a financial incentive and if the owners need it.

Thus far, the owners haven't provided any evidence that they are in such dire straits that they need more money. The owners know they don't have a leg to stand on in this fight. That's what the whole "they won't open their books" madness was about; the owners wouldn't open their books because they know if they did, their case for renegotiating the CBA. And despite it all, more and more reports have come out that state that the NFL and it's teams are making more money than ever and are still raising prices everywhere.

I think the player's are right to question the owner's motives. I just think they picked crappy representation. DeMaurice Smith is a lawyer. His answer to everything is going to be to litigate. He hasn't been effective in communicating that the players are in the right, and he hasn't been willing to come back to the table.

At least the owners are saying they want to be at the negotiating table. De Smith? He's taking shots over the bow in speeches in front of college students, and making sarcastic statements all the time. His methods are horrible and not in the best interest of the players he represents.

The whole reason that DeMaurice Smith was elected to be head of the NFLPA was because he was a lawyer and because the players knew it would come down to a lockout situation. Now, I think they're probably realizing that the lawyer is just going to do what lawyers do.

Jason Snelling asked why they're not sitting at the table, and I think a big part of that is because of De Smith. I think he's misled the players in this whole mess. The players have the better position and Smith has been balls at effectively communicating that.

...and they never will provide the evidence, because half the owners are not in financial problems. In fact they are doing just fine.
Which is the major hold up on the negotiations. Imagine negotiating a big money deal and the other person say 'trust me'. Ahh no!
The owners opened this door and are holding it. They have to show proof.

[NLC1054]

Exactly.

I can be some of the smaller market teams needing a little more money, but no one can convince me a majority of the teams in the NFL are just DYING unless they get more money.

Nothing about the owner's argument makes sense, which is why it's so weird that the players get as much, if not more heat for this whole thing. The players can't lock themselves out.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by NLC1054

Exactly.

I can be some of the smaller market teams needing a little more money, but no one can convince me a majority of the teams in the NFL are just DYING unless they get more money.

Nothing about the owner's argument makes sense, which is why it's so weird that the players get as much, if not more heat for this whole thing. The players can't lock themselves out.

More people, it seems, can relate to a billionaire that runs a business than a millionaire athlete that has taken advantage of natural talents. To many, players don't deserve much respect because all they are doing is playing a game.

[SBXVII]

^ Playing a Childs sport and not investing for their own retirement well enough. I look at it probably from a totally different perspective in that I think of all the Firemen and Policemen who risk their lives everyday for pennies and see grown men playing a game risking their lives one day a week for millions of dollars who don't want to spend their money on retirement or health insurance but would rather the owner pay all that for them and still demand a larger portion of the revenue.

Maybe if the players had to pay for part of their own retirement and health insurance and maybe put some of their own money towards retired players. Don't get me wrong I do feel sorry for the retired players but I look at them like I look at smokers. They knew the risk, and could have taken insurance out on themselves. They also knew in advance that most players only last about 5 to 10 yrs. WTF was their plan for after football? Not to mention the guys who failed to finish college. If they knew they would only last 10 yrs tops then they should have had a plan for what they would do when they turned 30. I don't see how that should be the owners responsibilities. If the current players feel sorry for them then let the players support he older retired players.

On a last note, I'm not stupid enough to not believe the owners are not making more money every year but please don't make me out to be a fool and try to tell me that the owners don't have an increase in costs as well. How about the non players and their raises? Loss of revenue because of the economy and fans failing to renew their season tickets. Yes beer and food has gone up but let's not forget that the small business man who sells it to you also has had a rise in cost for delivery.

I think it was said somewhere that if just one team had to build a new stadium that alone would hurt the owners which is why they are asking for more of the revenue... guess what the Vikings need a new stadium.

But the poor millionaire's can't afford to let the owners keep more of the revenue. Maybe the players should also show their books to show how their portion is being distributed as well.

[NLC1054]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

^ Playing a Childs sport and not investing for their own retirement well enough. I look at it probably from a totally different perspective in that I think of all the Firemen and Policemen who risk their lives everyday for pennies and see grown men playing a game risking their lives one day a week for millions of dollars who don't want to spend their money on retirement or health insurance but would rather the owner pay all that for them and still demand a larger portion of the revenue.

Maybe if the players had to pay for part of their own retirement and health insurance and maybe put some of their own money towards retired players. Don't get me wrong I do feel sorry for the retired players but I look at them like I look at smokers. They knew the risk, and could have taken insurance out on themselves. They also knew in advance that most players only last about 5 to 10 yrs. WTF was their plan for after football? Not to mention the guys who failed to finish college. If they knew they would only last 10 yrs tops then they should have had a plan for what they would do when they turned 30. I don't see how that should be the owners responsibilities. If the current players feel sorry for them then let the players support he older retired players.

On a last note, I'm not stupid enough to not believe the owners are not making more money every year but please don't make me out to be a fool and try to tell me that the owners don't have an increase in costs as well. How about the non players and their raises? Loss of revenue because of the economy and fans failing to renew their season tickets. Yes beer and food has gone up but let's not forget that the small business man who sells it to you also has had a rise in cost for delivery.

I think it was said somewhere that if just one team had to build a new stadium that alone would hurt the owners which is why they are asking for more of the revenue... guess what the Vikings need a new stadium.

But the poor millionaire's can't afford to let the owners keep more of the revenue. Maybe the players should also show their books to show how their portion is being distributed as well.

So if your boss walked in tomorrow and said to everyone "we're going to be taking a bigger portion of your paychecks", without explanation, and without proper cause, you wouldn't be upset?

You probably do plan for your retirement, and you probably pay some paycheck towards social security and towards health insurance. Likewise, the players are instructed to put money away for retirement, pay into a retirement fund through the union, and have to pay some portion of their health insurance as well.

It's not as if the owners are eating all the cost here. A majority of the players in the league aren't millionaires. They lead middle-class to upper middle class lives. They still have to pay bills, pay for child care, and in some cases, have to pay for extended family as well. They're not exactly poor, but when you factor in all their cost, they're not the ballers that the guys who get the endorsement deals and the top tier athletes are.

All the players are asking is to be treated fairly. If the owners stepped forward and showed they had a realistic need for more money, this would be over by now.

But if my boss wants to take more money off the top of my paycheck, and then won't tell or explain to me why they need more money, and then decides to lock me out because I don't want to take the pay cut, that's not really fair.

If he explains why he needs to take more off the top, I'd be more inclined to at least hear him out and maybe negotiate. But it's hard to negotiate with someone who's not being honest with you.

[Alvin Walton]

Oooooo....now we're having secret meetings.

Several influential NFL owners meet secretly near Chicago

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Oooooo....now we're having secret meetings.

Several influential NFL owners meet secretly near Chicago

I won't be surprised if this is how things get resolved, boom out of the blue there will be some sort of deal, or a lifting of the lockout.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

You are right, that it has gone down.

question, do you think the players would lower their percentage in order to gain guaranteed contracts?

I personally would not like guaranteed contracts in the NFL. Just look at the NBA for the exact reason why. Idiot Orlando Magic give Rashard Lewis a guaranteed max contract and he doesn't remotely come close to earning that money and it makes moving him difficult (if at all). Guaranteed contracts are a horrible idea. (even in baseball)

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

What the eff?

Punk move by Panthers players to lock out media - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

What the **** are they thinking? Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible Horrible horrible move by them.

Deserves the /facepalm of the week, UNLESS it's supposed to be a parody of the owners lockout and what Bud Adams did with the Titans.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

More people, it seems, can relate to a billionaire that runs a business than a millionaire athlete that has taken advantage of natural talents. To many, players don't deserve much respect because all they are doing is playing a game.

I think this is from North Dallas 40: "When we say it's a game, they say it's a business. When we say it's business, they say it's a game."

Let me start by saying I have come off a bit from my earlier take on things (still think DeMaurice is just a high priced ambo chaser and douche). Plenty of shady legal wrangling by both sides - players "decertification", owners TV deal. Lots of legal posturing by both sides - to me it's clear both sides prepped for this contingency.

(BTW - For the record, and for all the reasons FRPLG said wayyyy back in the thread the "open your books" argument is a BS argument - just not going to rehash it except to say that the NFL opened its books as much as any employer should be expected to - for more than that, see the much more intelligent articulation that concept by FRPLG).

The players are like any "employees" with a useful talent. Given their ability to generate wealth for others, they, as a group, have considerable leverage in deciding how they will be compensated for this. Maybe the perception that players were just "playing a game" existed in the strikes of the 80's where the NFL was not THE predominant (by far) sporting entertainment business. NFL Football, however, has not been "just a game" for at least 30 years and in the last 10-20, IMHO, even the most ardent "fan of the game" has had any naivete on that issue torn away. The blatant fact is that the NFL is a bazillion dollar entertainment industry and both owners and players are completely removed in sooo many ways from the realities with which you and I deal.

[To me, its comparable to actors. I was an amatuer thespian but I have no illusion that the little theater productions I did are in any way related to the entertainment industry's block buster films. Sure, I was just acting - but Brad Pitt (who is not nearly as attractive as I am) stopped "just acting" a lonng time ago. Similarly, the guys in the NFL stopped "just playing a game" sometime in college.]

Because of that, I am just not sure that the perception that NFL players are "just playing a game" is much of a factor any more.

My own take on the seeming slide of public opinion away from the players (other than those dedicated commies like NC_Skins ) is that (1) D. Smith comes off as an incredible hard line douche; (2) the owners have parlayed the tactical decision to decertify into the public perception that the players (and not the owners) are using shady legal dealings to get the courts involved; and (3) the owners are just flat out playing the public opinion game better - Goodell may be talking out of two sides of his mouth just as much as Smith but the consistent air play is "hey, we're trying - look at our offers" compared to DeMaurice "we're going to the mattresses" Smith.

Look - it's a business. More specifically, it's an entertainment business with billionare owners and millionare employees. Just like any other business, owners will strive to maximize their profits. Just like any other business, the players will strive to maximize their earnings. I am okay with both of these concepts, it's only when owners/players start playing fast and loose with the law or their mutally agreed upon contractaul agreements that I get pissed.

Just read this over - Much like the "negotiations", I sure spent a lot of time saying not much of anything.