What's wrong with the passing game? (Non-JC edition)

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

All this crapping on Moss and yet he's still on pace for 1100+ yards this year. Imagine where his numbers would be in a better offense.

Just because he's the only one JC looks for does not mean he's a #1 WR. I see him as an extremely high #2 or extremely low #1. Yes he's getting the numbers cause JC won't go anywhere else but him and Cooley. Everyone else is a blocking dummy. This is what I wrote elswhere on here....

Re: What's Wrong with the Redskins?
I'm sorry....I can't bear to read all the complaints. Mine will be exactly the same. What ticks me off more is that Atlanta has a better passing game with lesser talent and new QB. How can that be? Miami (with new coach and offense) was even looking better then us scoring more points per game. How can that be? Hell the Rams a horrible as they have seemed have scored more in some of their games then we have all year. How can that be?

Atlanta really ticks me though. According to Zorn this is a pass happy scoring offense. Where is it? am I missing something?

Things we need:
1. A younger O-Line.
2. A younger (healthy) D-Line.
3. A QB.
4. More younger WR's.
5. A punter.
6. A field goal kicker.

I know I seem like a negative nanny. Ok slam me. I mentioned QB...why cause JC is that home grown corn bred fed country boy that everyone has working for them and is slower then molassas. You guys know what I mean. If your in the military you have thought ..."that boy will be the first to go cause he just has no get up and go."
Be honest with your self. Look at the "great QB's" in this league. They have a sense of urgency when they are down in the fourth quarter. Hands flying, arms waving, no huddle, running up to the line, barking plays. This is not JC. Yes he manages well. Yes he's a calm, cool cat, but not a great QB and probably never will be.

Simple fact...we need a decent punter and field goal kicker. Almost everyone agrees.

I mentioned #4. More younger WR's cause our guys we have now are late 20's early 30's older then dirt. It's either their to old to get seperation or the WR coach sucks in teaching how to get seperation. I'm not fond of Stan Hixon. What 4-5 years and he has not taught a WR to run a decent route? He may have been a guru in college but it's not transfering.

No one will argue we need younger linemen on both sides of the ball. On Offense Gibbs always liked the older wiser linemen who don't make mistakes. Guess what ...they are making mistakes. Time to get younger and faster. On Defense we have no push up the middle to callapse the pockets and the only salvagable DE we have is Carter. They need to start throwing all the young guys in to see who will stay next year or not.

I know the Giants were an expected loss by lots of us including me, but it would have been nice to see us put up a fight. One touch down. One. This is not a scoring machine offense Zorn said he was bringing. I know there were a lot of dropped balls but watching the game there were a lot of dirt balls, and balls thrown to high, balls thrown to hard at times. and I can't help but look at how Atlanta does and cry wondering how on earth another team who has a new coaching staff, new system, and new QB is able to score so many points and stay in games? We couldn't fight our way out of wet paper bag. We might get lucky and get a field goal. lol.

I know I sound like the sky is falling type. I'm not. I know it takes 3 yrs to learn a new system. I don't care how you spin it or what excuses people can dream up but this team will not go far in the play offs. Everyone needs to be honest with themselves right now and see we can't score more then 20 points on our best day we are not going far. Our defense is carrying us keeping us in games but the offense has to step up and score points and not field goals.

All season I kept thinking....Zorn has something for the second half of the year. He's holding something back. He's not showing all his cards. He's got something for the Giants and the rest of this division the second time we play them. He's dreaming something up. and you know what....he doesn't. We have no special weapon. We have 4 games left and if we were going to use it or them they or it would have shown up some where around week 8 halfway through the season. We have nothing.

[MTK]

Cooley leads the team with 66 catches (on pace for 88) and Randle El is 3rd with 43 (on pace for 57). Not sure how anyone can say Moss is the only guy he throws to.

[sportscurmudgeon]

What's wrong with the Skins' passing game is not a single thing; there are several components. However, please consider the following:


At the end of the 2007 season most folks here thought - correctly - that wide receiver was an area that needed upgrading in the off-season. CLEARLY, the front office and the coaching staff must have thought it needed a bit of tweaking too because they spent the first three draft picks taking pass-catchers.


It is now December and the WR corps for the 2008 Redskins is the same group of people as for the 2007 Redskins - - the same guys who didn't get it done last year and presented the team with a need to "upgrade".


GRTripp0012 has it right about Moss. He makes a couple of huge gains and a bunch of no gains on his catches. He is the #1 receiver here by default but isn't a great lead receiver. Perhaps he attains the level of "slightly above average".


A big problem is that none of the three rookie pass-catchers has done diddley-squat all season long. So far, Kelly's contribution is that he may drop the highest percentage of passes to hit him in the hands in the history of the NFL. He has made Rod Gardner look like a guy doing an instructional video on how to catch a football.


Until and unless the new guys add something to the pass-catching mix, we are left to deal with Albert Einstein's definition of insanity ...

... doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Redskin Warrior

100% agree with you on that!!! Replace Wes Welker with Santana Moss he would have a record setting season.

Well I will disagree with you on Welker. Welker is one tough dude and excels at running routes over the middle. I don't think Santana would last a whole season if you put him in Welker's role in NE's offense. He can't take that kind of pounding. But he'd do just fine as a #3 behind Moss and Welker working in the 15 - 25 yard range and cathcing the occasional wr screen.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Just because he's the only one JC looks for does not mean he's a #1 WR. I see him as an extremely high #2 or extremely low #1. Yes he's getting the numbers cause JC won't go anywhere else but him and Cooley. Everyone else is a blocking dummy. This is what I wrote elswhere on here....

Re: What's Wrong with the Redskins?
I'm sorry....I can't bear to read all the complaints. Mine will be exactly the same. What ticks me off more is that Atlanta has a better passing game with lesser talent and new QB. How can that be? Miami (with new coach and offense) was even looking better then us scoring more points per game. How can that be? Hell the Rams a horrible as they have seemed have scored more in some of their games then we have all year. How can that be?

Atlanta really ticks me though. According to Zorn this is a pass happy scoring offense. Where is it? am I missing something?

Things we need:
1. A younger O-Line.
2. A younger (healthy) D-Line.
3. A QB.
4. More younger WR's.
5. A punter.
6. A field goal kicker.

I know I seem like a negative nanny. Ok slam me. I mentioned QB...why cause JC is that home grown corn bred fed country boy that everyone has working for them and is slower then molassas. You guys know what I mean. If your in the military you have thought ..."that boy will be the first to go cause he just has no get up and go."
Be honest with your self. Look at the "great QB's" in this league. They have a sense of urgency when they are down in the fourth quarter. Hands flying, arms waving, no huddle, running up to the line, barking plays. This is not JC. Yes he manages well. Yes he's a calm, cool cat, but not a great QB and probably never will be.

Simple fact...we need a decent punter and field goal kicker. Almost everyone agrees.

I mentioned #4. More younger WR's cause our guys we have now are late 20's early 30's older then dirt. It's either their to old to get seperation or the WR coach sucks in teaching how to get seperation. I'm not fond of Stan Hixon. What 4-5 years and he has not taught a WR to run a decent route? He may have been a guru in college but it's not transfering.

No one will argue we need younger linemen on both sides of the ball. On Offense Gibbs always liked the older wiser linemen who don't make mistakes. Guess what ...they are making mistakes. Time to get younger and faster. On Defense we have no push up the middle to callapse the pockets and the only salvagable DE we have is Carter. They need to start throwing all the young guys in to see who will stay next year or not.

I know the Giants were an expected loss by lots of us including me, but it would have been nice to see us put up a fight. One touch down. One. This is not a scoring machine offense Zorn said he was bringing. I know there were a lot of dropped balls but watching the game there were a lot of dirt balls, and balls thrown to high, balls thrown to hard at times. and I can't help but look at how Atlanta does and cry wondering how on earth another team who has a new coaching staff, new system, and new QB is able to score so many points and stay in games? We couldn't fight our way out of wet paper bag. We might get lucky and get a field goal. lol.

I know I sound like the sky is falling type. I'm not. I know it takes 3 yrs to learn a new system. I don't care how you spin it or what excuses people can dream up but this team will not go far in the play offs. Everyone needs to be honest with themselves right now and see we can't score more then 20 points on our best day we are not going far. Our defense is carrying us keeping us in games but the offense has to step up and score points and not field goals.

All season I kept thinking....Zorn has something for the second half of the year. He's holding something back. He's not showing all his cards. He's got something for the Giants and the rest of this division the second time we play them. He's dreaming something up. and you know what....he doesn't. We have no special weapon. We have 4 games left and if we were going to use it or them they or it would have shown up some where around week 8 halfway through the season. We have nothing.

Half way into last season this what they were saying about Eli and the giants. So maybe there is hope.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Cooley leads the team with 66 catches (on pace for 88) and Randle El is 3rd with 43 (on pace for 57). Not sure how anyone can say Moss is the only guy he throws to.

Is ARE catching passes that move the chains? Or is he really helping us get in the end zone? No. Stats don't really tell the truth. Especially in this offense. Yesterday Plax is out and Hixon comes in and catches a bunch of balls that are for 1st downs. He moved the chains. That's the difference. Some of that's on the coaches and JC. We need to start throwing deeper routes or getting more guys down the field.

[PennSkinsFan]

Pass protection and lack of a second receiver a defense actually respects. That's it.

[prinzeofmoval]

Its the rushing game..It all goes hand in hand.If you cant run the ball and playing from behind you're forced to pass, and since they play 7 back its hard to go long and everything is underneath patterns.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Is ARE catching passes that move the chains? Or is he really helping us get in the end zone? No. Stats don't really tell the truth. Especially in this offense. Yesterday Plax is out and Hixon comes in and catches a bunch of balls that are for 1st downs. He moved the chains. That's the difference. Some of that's on the coaches and JC. We need to start throwing deeper routes or getting more guys down the field.

Actually he is, I think GTripp can take over from here.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I guess I'm just gonna start harping,
WR technique is bad, which means WR coaching probably is bad, we have gone through a bunch of WR's maybe it's time we get a new WR coach.

I've wondered about this myself. We have supposedly talented guys who can't get on the field because they don't know the offense or don't run their routes correctly? I'm not putting it ALL on the coaching but it sounds like it could be better.

[dmvskinzfan08]

Has anyone ever though that our coach was a new coach..but now teams are figuring out Zorns offense and he needs to adjust. They double Moss and stay tight on Cooley. ARE hasn't been performing and the rookie WRs haven't done anything. To add to that. The O-line sucks big time.

[bigm29]

Originally Posted by Redskin Warrior

Our opponents are taking Santana away from us point blank. It's rare that you don't see him double or triple covered. Santana is not a big receiver so he can't bully himself around to get open like T.O., Randy Moss & others. He is a 5'9 crisp route runner, speedster when they are double covered it's not much they can do. See Steve Smith in the 2006 playoff game against Chicago he stayed covered he couldn't catch a thing.

So basically your saying that Santana needs a better #1 reciever to take coverage off him and therefore making him a #2?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Is ARE catching passes that move the chains? Or is he really helping us get in the end zone? No. Stats don't really tell the truth. Especially in this offense. Yesterday Plax is out and Hixon comes in and catches a bunch of balls that are for 1st downs. He moved the chains. That's the difference. Some of that's on the coaches and JC. We need to start throwing deeper routes or getting more guys down the field.

He's got something like 25 first downs this year, so I'd say that would be a resounding yes. Not even a half-hearted yes. Resounding.

Randle El and Cooley are not your problem children when the argument is about sustaining offense. Campbell, yes at times. Moss, yes at times. Kelly, Yoder, Thomas, Davis, Thrash...yes times 100.

[bigm29]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

What's wrong with the Skins' passing game is not a single thing; there are several components. However, please consider the following:


At the end of the 2007 season most folks here thought - correctly - that wide receiver was an area that needed upgrading in the off-season. CLEARLY, the front office and the coaching staff must have thought it needed a bit of tweaking too because they spent the first three draft picks taking pass-catchers.


It is now December and the WR corps for the 2008 Redskins is the same group of people as for the 2007 Redskins - - the same guys who didn't get it done last year and presented the team with a need to "upgrade".


GRTripp0012 has it right about Moss. He makes a couple of huge gains and a bunch of no gains on his catches. He is the #1 receiver here by default but isn't a great lead receiver. Perhaps he attains the level of "slightly above average".


A big problem is that none of the three rookie pass-catchers has done diddley-squat all season long. So far, Kelly's contribution is that he may drop the highest percentage of passes to hit him in the hands in the history of the NFL. He has made Rod Gardner look like a guy doing an instructional video on how to catch a football.


Until and unless the new guys add something to the pass-catching mix, we are left to deal with Albert Einstein's definition of insanity ...

... doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

I never thought about it that way. You are definitely on to something here and I think you may be right. And it really makes feel bad for Campbell and better about his future as well if his supporting cast can step up. Even this season he has not been perfect but besides the running game (being the only successful element of the offense) the pass protection, wide recievers, and playcalling are all to blame more than campbell.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by redsk1

SM is probably the 12th-15th best WR is the NFL. As a #1 WR on a team you'd like to be above 15th and preferrably above 10th.

Look at the game sunday as an example of a good passing game. Eli threw down field extremely accurately to his WR's. In many cases, his WR was the only one w/ a play on the ball, even though we covered it well. That's a combination of Eli and his WR's. Sometimes as an elite QB you need that accuracy. The WR's might not be WIDE open. Look at NY's wide receivers too: Burress, Toomer, Smith, Dixon, Moss. Does that tell you anything? They have talent and depth.

Ok top 15 WRs in no order

Boldin
Fitzgerald
Houshmanzadah
TO
Marshall
A Johnson
Greg Jennings
Steve Smith
Burress
Wayne
Calvin Johnson?
R Moss

Then S Moss maybe. So SM is most likely in the 10th-15th best WR in the NFL give or take. You'd like your best WR to be in the top 10 or at least in the top 15. If you're close to the 15th best then your #2 needs to be good, and ours isn't.

Roddy White
Vincent Jackson
Hines Ward
Derrick Mason
Marques Colston
Jericho Cotchery
Lee Evans
Wes Welker

and Santana Moss

So I see Moss as a top 20 type still, so that's No. 1 WR quality, but again, it's hard to run a passing offense through this, much like it would be hard to run a passing offense through Randle El.