Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

BTW, everyone I am sorry if I contributed to bringing up the Ramsey-Brunell debate again. I never intended to do so.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by NFLeurope

I posted the following response in the thread about what personnel we would need next year...but on second thought i guess it doesnt really belong there...so i am creating a separate thread...

Let me know what you guys think:

You know, i figure ill prolly get some reactionary comments for this...but here goes...

I have seen a number of people suggest that we ought to get rid of Ramsey at the end of the season and get whatever we can for him...whether that be a 2nd (unlikely), a 3rd, or a 4th.

Now i just dont agree. I mean if nothing else having a quality back-up is something on which you simply cannot place enough emphasis.

Look at what happend to the Jets this year. They were a playoff team last year...and they didnt really lose too many guys, and even picked up Ty Law. But their QB goes down and look at them now...they may be one of the top candidates to win the Reggie Bush sweepstakes.

Now whether you liked the pick or not...i suppose it is true that we drafted Jason Cambell as our QB of the future. However, none of us know how far along he is in his development. In fact many analysts on draft day...and many guys on this board were saying that he was a project...that he was brought in here to ride the pine and learn for 2 years...and then take over eventually.

So i mean considering we are looking to make a serious run at the playoffs and possibly looking to become a contender next year...I think it would be silly to stake the entire season on Mark Brunells shoulders. Mark Brunell will be 36 and if Cambell is not ready, then the skins really ought to think long and hard before giving up a damn good back-up QB in Ramsey (in my humble opinion starting material) for a measly 4th rounder. They need to at least make sure they get something worthwhile for him...or shouldn't trade him.

Now here is the part i know ill get shit for...

It is my opinion that despite the fact that he has proven to be a good leader and an admirable competitor...and a seemingly good guy...that the Mark Brunell signing has not been a good thing for the redskins. Here is why i think that...

One should not only consider a players performance in deciding whether or not he was a good signing. You also have to consider the cost to benefit ratio. The first example that comes to mind is that of Randy Moss and the Oakland Raiders...

I read an article recently that questionned whether or not Moss was actually helping the raiders or not. The guy is putting up good numbers...but look at his paycheck. While he was out injured...the raiders focused more on their running attack and actually played good winning football while moss was out or not playing a large role in the offense. When he is in the game...his contract necessitates that a certain amount of the offensive plays are based on him...and thus the raiders run less. So while just looking at the guys stats you might say he was a great signing...just consider the huge commitment the raiders have made in taking on his 75 million contract...and the fact that they are still only 4-7. If they hadnt signed him...they could still have a good offense...and could have invested the money his contract eats up...elsewhere.

Now how is this related to Brunell? Well while it seems unfair to criticize Gibbs an Co. for the initial signing now...since hindsight is always 20/20 and they didnt have the luxury of knowing how things would turn out when they signed Brunell. I do believe that it is legitimate to judge a signing based on the results you get vs what you gave up to get those results.

Brunell is getting paid alot. (more than our other 2 QB's i believe). His first season here was a disaster, and now despite vastly improved play on his part...the team still may not make the playoffs.

In addition to the dollar cost of his contract, his signing also led us to waste any viable cotribution that Ramsey MIGHT have been able to make to this team.

Of course no one can tell what would have been if it had been ramsey starting in place of Brunell. However, Ramsey was a first rounder, a big investment for this franchise, and considering that he never was given an opportunity comparable to the oppurtunities that other first rounders normally get...we may never find out whether Ramsey would have turned out to be another Drew Brees...or another bum.

He might have been great. He might have been terrible. Or he might have been mediocre.

But it is the not knowing that constitues a wasted investment...and should in my mind be considered as part of the cost we undertook in signing Brunell.

You can take it even further and suggest that the cost of Brunells contract could have been even more than just 1 wasted first rounder. For IF...and i do say IF Ramsey did prove to be a Viable starter...then we would of course never have drafted Jason Cambell. And so it could even be possible...though noone will ever know...that in addition to the actual dollar investement...Brunell's signing also cost us 2 first rounders (QB investments - Ramsey drafted before his arrival...who we wont know about. Campbell drafted after his first season...precisely because we didnt know about Ramsey, or Brunell- both of whom only played a portion of the season and neither played exceptionally well.)

So in conclusion i would just like to state...that in my opinion the cost to benefit ratio of signing Brunell has not even come close to panning out. You know i mean maybe im wrong...and he will come back and lead us to the playoffs or a superbowl and that would be great. But frankly...at this point...i would really have rathered seen what we had in Ramsey...before going out and getting a guy who when it is all said and done...may have only led us to 2 mediocre seasons...but cost us so very very much.

Sorry about the length...i just got kinda carried away...

I love you man! :headbange

[mooby]

i don't see how we can blame Brunell for our record. True, he has lost fumbles and gotten sacks, but he's won us games (see Dallas), he's vastly improved over last year, he throws the ball away instead of just taking the sack, he's proven he can still run when he needs to, and he's been an efficient qb. Ramsey has shown a penchant for taking sacks, making bad decisions, and in his third season, didn't show he was capable. The better qb has the job, and i believe we still have this year and at least next year before we start Campbell. it takes time for rookie qbs to become starting caliber. Just look at Carson Palmer. Look at the monster season he's having. Jason Campbell has the tools to be a great qb, he just needs time. Brunell will give us enough time for that to happen. There are a number of things that have contributed to our losses this year, and Brunell isn't the biggest factor.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by mooby

i don't see how we can blame Brunell for our record. True, he has lost fumbles and gotten sacks, but he's won us games (see Dallas), he's vastly improved over last year, he throws the ball away instead of just taking the sack, he's proven he can still run when he needs to, and he's been an efficient qb. Ramsey has shown a penchant for taking sacks, making bad decisions, and in his third season, didn't show he was capable. The better qb has the job, and i believe we still have this year and at least next year before we start Campbell. it takes time for rookie qbs to become starting caliber. Just look at Carson Palmer. Look at the monster season he's having. Jason Campbell has the tools to be a great qb, he just needs time. Brunell will give us enough time for that to happen. There are a number of things that have contributed to our losses this year, and Brunell isn't the biggest factor.

The nature of his position dictates that Brunell will always get more blame than deserved and more credit than deserved during a win. It's just the way it is. If Mike Alstott had been correctly ruled down before he crossed the goal-line, if Portis hadn't fumbled deep in our own territory against the Raiders, and if Rabach hadn't committed a crucial holding penalty in field goal range against the Raiders we could very well be 8-3. And Brunell wouldn't be any more responsible for those wins than he is for the three losses. But I'm sure that if we did win, then he would get that extra credit for those wins.

[dlwredskins]

Well I'll say this about the Ramsey and Brunell thing...
First Ramsey is from Tulane..right down the street from where I was raised so I like the guy anyway...but he has proven not to be the answer so to speak. Truly he has never really been given a chance to lead the team take his lumps for a whole year or two, learn a system with the same coach and then see where he was. Brunell is not getting any younger so if we don't get someone who can be with us for a while and produce we are going to continue to have trouble. We have an owner who is not very patient and he truly is the cause of some of this. The Redskins have not had a consistent QB since Joe Theismann went down...you know with teams like the Packers (for now) you know Brett is your guy every year...even the Texans have Carr every year...we have not had that and that a big part of the problem.

Then what's frustrating for me as a long time skins fan is everytime one coach realizes he needs a QB the coach leave and the situation starts all over.
Look when Norv came we started rebuilding...Shuler and Ferrotte were not the answer a blind man could see that. Ferrotte beat out Shuler I could have done that and I've never played organized ball. When Turner got sick of Gus here comes Trent Green...(gee isn't he with stable team now?) We should have kept him....Then the ownership change...which was another issue....Turner got to stay and in 1999 brought in Johnson...that was great...then Synder and his high price vets including Jeff George screwed everything up...so Johnson leaves and George is a head case....Finaly Marty cuts him George, has Banks finish the season and I'm sure he would have gotten a QB, but Snyder fires him after he's won 8 of 11 games with Tony Banks of all people. Then Spurrier comes in new scheme and philosopy and after giving is old QB Danny Wurffel a shot decides to get Patrick in....we see the product of all these changes and Patrick still has not developed yet...no real opportunity...then the legend returns trying to win now sticks with an injured Brunell until it's too late to make a playoff push and goes to Ramsey...good. Then he's benched after about a quarter in favor of Brunell still trying to win NOW. So Brunell will be fine I love the guy but if he gets hurt we are back in the same position again. And Campbell will also take time to develop..so unless we turn this around now (this season or next season if Joe stays) or unless Campbell just comes in throwing strikes I'm afraid it still may get worse before it gets better unless someone in the front office wakes up and gets things together. Then they have to do it fast because Gibbs may have one more year he'll work his contract, maybe two before we have a new coach, new system and everything else and if Dan Synder doesn't like the results of the new administration he'll fire them or interfer too much...more inconsistency and changes and we still don't have a playoff spot much less a superbowl appreance.

[dmek25]

im not sure how anyone can evaluate patrick ramsey on his time in washington so far.he should have at least been given 1 full season in coach gibbs system to see if he has what it takes to make it in this league.we do know that the kid is tough as nails from the spurrier experiment.coach gibbs seems like he waits for #11 to make a mistake just so he can yank him.dont try telling me he has been givin a fair tryout.least we forget,he is still young,was a first round pick,and if we do trade him,to get fair value for him,or at the very least ,then hold on to him.

[railcon56]

Originally Posted by dmek25

im not sure how anyone can evaluate patrick ramsey on his time in washington so far.he should have at least been given 1 full season in coach gibbs system to see if he has what it takes to make it in this league.we do know that the kid is tough as nails from the spurrier experiment.coach gibbs seems like he waits for #11 to make a mistake just so he can yank him.dont try telling me he has been givin a fair tryout.least we forget,he is still young,was a first round pick,and if we do trade him,to get fair value for him,or at the very least ,then hold on to him.

ty very good

[MTK]

Originally Posted by dmek25

im not sure how anyone can evaluate patrick ramsey on his time in washington so far.he should have at least been given 1 full season in coach gibbs system to see if he has what it takes to make it in this league.we do know that the kid is tough as nails from the spurrier experiment.coach gibbs seems like he waits for #11 to make a mistake just so he can yank him.dont try telling me he has been givin a fair tryout.least we forget,he is still young,was a first round pick,and if we do trade him,to get fair value for him,or at the very least ,then hold on to him.

Problem is you're basing this on what you've seen and not what the coaches saw all during the offseason workouts, camps, closed practices, film, etc.

He was given a fair evaluation period, he had the entire offseason and preseason to show that he should be the unquestioned starter, and in the coaches eyes he simply did not do that.

If Ramsey had done an outstanding job during that time and left no doubt in the coaches mind that he was the man for the job, he wouldn't have received the quick hook.

[NFLeurope]

See thats what im saying...i mean people say cut your losses and get rid of Ramsey...without realizing that Ramsey could still have value to the Redskins!!

Gibbs doesnt like to play young QB's so ive heard. And Unless he turns into a Ben Roethlisberger...unlikely...if Brunell gets hurt out there next season...we could really be in for a tough time if cambell gets thrown in there before he is ready. To me risking throwing away the entire season...if Brunell is injured is not worth obtaining just any mid-round pick.

So if they can get real good value for him...ie maybe Abraham, or a pick that could contribute to the team positively for next year...then it is worth...CONSIDERING the risk of trading Ramsey. But i definatley do not think that we shold just get rid of him to get rid of him.

And in terms of us having drafted our QB of the future in Cambell...well hopefully he will be good...but just look at the Chargers situation...it was only after Rivers...there QB of the future was drafted that Mr. Brees went from being considered a bust to a pro bowler. Even after everyone in Sandiego had given up on him...

And that is where Patrick Ramsey just cannot be judged yet... The number of QB's that come in this league and are good right away...is minimal...ie Roethlisberger and i dont know who else. Normally QB's have to go through growing pains...

And the whole point is...that because he never was given a prolonged opportunity to play...we cannot know if Ramsey's struggles...the holding the ball too long...the interceptions...etc...were growing pains...or simply that he was not good enough.

So...in the hope that they were growing pains...i would be inclined to hold onto him for next year...

Maybe if Brunell gets banged up at some point this year...or if we are out of the playoffhunt Gibbs could throw ramsey in there...and We'll see where he's at... Perhaps we could even give cambell some game experience. If nothing else playing Ramsey could at least serve to increase his trade value if he plays well...and maybe even open up a quarterback competition over the summer...which i would not be opposed to...and Brunell himself said was always a healthy thing.

I really like Patrick Ramsey...i think his good team-first attitude is rare among today's athletes...and maybe with time he could learn to be a great leader much like brunell...we'll see.....

Just dont give the kid away for a warm six pack...

[MTK]

I tend to agree with NFLeurope, I don't see us dealing Patrick away unless it's a great offer.

Gibbs places great value on QB depth, always has and always will.

Gibbs knows that Ramsey did a solid job at the end of last year and based on that, he gave him the starting job. It wasn't Gibbs' fault that PR did nothing during the offseason and preseason to show that he had solidified himself as the unquestioned starter. Patrick left the door cracked open, and the injury against the Bears was the convenient excuse to make the switch.

Sure Patrick scoffed initially, but since then he's played the good soldier routine to a T. Deep down he has to know he wasn't ready to lead the offense the way Brunell has. Hopefully he's learned some valuable lessons this year and will be ready to step up his game when called upon again.

He still has a year left on his deal, I don't see us trading him for anything less than a 2nd rounder or a package deal for a top flight DE.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I tend to agree with NFLeurope, I don't see us dealing Patrick away unless it's a great offer.

Gibbs places great value on QB depth, always has and always will.

Gibbs knows that Ramsey did a solid job at the end of last year and based on that, he gave him the starting job. It wasn't Gibbs' fault that PR did nothing during the offseason and preseason to show that he had solidified himself as the unquestioned starter. Patrick left the door cracked open, and the injury against the Bears was the convenient excuse to make the switch.

Sure Patrick scoffed initially, but since then he's played the good soldier routine to a T. Deep down he has to know he wasn't ready to lead the offense the way Brunell has. Hopefully he's learned some valuable lessons this year and will be ready to step up his game when called upon again.

He still has a year left on his deal, I don't see us trading him for anything less than a 2nd rounder or a package deal for a top flight DE.

In absolutely no way are we keeping both of those guys. What a waste. Now if you are talking about letting Brunell go after this season, since he has not produced a winning season in two years, then that is a different story. But I think by Gibbs benching Ramsey only 1/2 a quarter into the first game, and using a #1 pick on a QB that Ramsey's time in Washington is numbered. If Gibbs had any confidence in him he would not have drafted Campbell. Draft picks are so precious now with there only being 7 rounds, that I dont think they would have wasted essentially 3 picks(trading a 1st and 4th to get a 1st last year) on a QB and have him competing with another #1 pick for a starting job.

[Skinnydo]

Regardless of how good or bad Patrick Ramsey may or may not be, he has to go. Can anyone imagine him playing with any confidence knowing that the coaching staff will be so critical of his every move? Can you imagine the look on Gibbs' face when Ramsey would throw his first interception? Brunell is one of the 5 best quarterbacks in the league, and for certain Campbell is ready, willing and able to step in and take over when called upon. Given Ramsey's performance thus far, he would have been "cut" had be been playing any other position. For certain, Ramsey should be cut or traded following this season. This team needs to get on with business and Ramsey is not part of the equation.

[railcon56]

Originally Posted by Skinnydo

Regardless of how good or bad Patrick Ramsey may or may not be, he has to go. Can anyone imagine him playing with any confidence knowing that the coaching staff will be so critical of his every move? Can you imagine the look on Gibbs' face when Ramsey would throw his first interception? Brunell is one of the 5 best quarterbacks in the league, and for certain Campbell is ready, willing and able to step in and take over when called upon. Given Ramsey's performance thus far, he would have been "cut" had be been playing any other position. For certain, Ramsey should be cut or traded following this season. This team needs to get on with business and Ramsey is not part of the equation.

5 best where do u get that from ..5 best fumblers yes

[firstdown]

If Ramsey was given the chance to play more games this year everyone would be pissed that Ramsey was still in and Campbell was not playing. Our record would be much worse and we would still be thinking Brunell was all washed up.

[railcon56]

Originally Posted by firstdown

If Ramsey was given the chance to play more games this year everyone would be pissed that Ramsey was still in and Campbell was not playing. Our record would be much worse and we would still be thinking Brunell was all washed up.

i think he is washed up... he is scared to throw u guys act like he is the MVP he throws a good 10 yard pass yes but can he throw it up? well he hasnt in awhile.. and when i saw Ramsey in that 1st game he looked very good He threw deep and crisp... and we were more wide open.... so dont say what ramsey can't do..