Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I never said that. What I'm saying is don't buy a $17,000 dodge neon and then bitch about it not lasting as long as a $23,000 camry. Dollar for dollar I disagree with the statement that American cars are somehow inferior. I don't know where everyone gets the impression that foreign cars are so cheap, but they're not. I'll grant you the Japanese have the market on compact cars. It's hard to argue against the Civic in terms of reliability for the price. But I challenge anyone to get more for their money than I got last year when I bought my 2005 Denali.

Another example: in 2001 I bought a Dodge Stratus R/T coupe with a 3.0L V6 (200 HP), 4 disc CD in the dash, premium Infinity sound system, sun roof, leather seats, 8-way power adjustable driver seat, 17" aluminum alloy wheels, 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes, integrated fog lamps, etc. I got all that in 2001 for $21,000 with 3.9% financing. A week or two ago I just traded it in. 5 years, 46k miles and I NEVER had a single problem with it. Nothing, in 5 years. I changed the breaks once, tires once, and the oil every 7,500 miles (because that's all it called for). What equivalent foreign car could I have gotten in terms of features, reliability, and performance for that kind of money in 2001?



As for sedans and coupes, I would argue that an Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Pontiac G6, Pontiac GTO, Chevrolet Corvette, and Cadillac CTS all offer more than their foreign counterparts for less money. But this thread is more about getting Tafkas a new car, so I don't think we really need to get into a debate about specific cars, or this thread will likely turn into a 50 pager in no time.

And for the record, I never layed a guilt trip on anybody. To the extent you think I did, please show me where.

I like how you are analyzing the costs/benefits of each car, because the price definitely has to enter the equation when you're talking about quality.

But be careful in your comparisons, a Dodge Neon (compact) is not the same class as a Toyota Camry (midsize sedan). If you're looking for the same-class comparison, go with the Neon and the Toyota Corrolla or Honda Civic.

The American models are often cheaper, but the quality isn't as good as the Japanese. I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it. None of the American cars you mentioned in that bolded section rank very high in terms of quality, and the Japanese makers are ahead according to just about every publication available. That is supported by Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, etcetera.

It's a given that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are better quality than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy. But you're right to question whether or not the extra money spent is worth it. That part comes down to individual perception.

[That Guy]

there's no such thing as an american car anymore. a lot of parts for EVERY car are shipped over from asia. deal with it.

[EEich]

Originally Posted by That Guy

there's no such thing as an american car anymore. a lot of parts for EVERY car are shipped over from asia. deal with it.

That's funny, the last 4 cars I've purchased (2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas) were all built in North America.

[cpayne5]

Here are my recommendations -

Sedans: Accord, Camry, Subaru Legacy (AWD)
Small SUVs: RAV4 (especially 2006+), CR-V, Highlander
Midsize SUVs: 4Runner, Trailblazer

With the SUV choices, I'm assuming that they all have/are AWD/4WD and with the sedans, only the Suby is AWD.

If you plan on keeping your vehicle for a long time, buy it new. I know you take a hit on depreciation, but by buying it new you know the exact history of it. You know how it has been treated. If you're going to sell the car in 3-5 years, go with a slightly used vehicle.

In terms of quality, Japanese autos are tops. Especially ones made in Japan. You can tell if it's made in japan by seeing if the VIN starts with a J. You wouldn't think that there would be a difference, but there is. American cars are of better quality than the Europeans. American cars have taken a bum rap recently, and frankly it's not at all warranted at this point. I have never owned a korean car (hyundai/ kia), but would go out on a limb and say that they are right now what Honda/Toyota was back in the 60s/ 70s in terms of industry emergence.

The general driveline of a vehicle with either AWD or 4WD: engine->transmission->transfer case-> 2 outputs; 1 to front axle & 1 to rear

AWD vs 4WD
There really isn't a whole lot of difference here with the terms. Where the difference lies is in the implementation of the systems. Traditionally, a 4WD vehicle gives you a multimode transfer case with a lever(s), or more recently buttons or knobs, which allow you to make the switch from 2wheel drive to 4wheel drive. An all wheel drive system does not give you the ability to manually switch your vehicle to 2wd. Some all wheel drive systems do allow the driver to switch into a low range, but I doubt you really need to be concerned with that given how you're going to use the vehicle. At this point, an AWD vehicle and a vehicle with a multimode transfer case in 4wd are in basically the same state.

AWD vs 4WD w/ 4WD mode selected
Alright, here's where the fun begins. In order to split power you need an input, a "gear box", and 2 outputs. This is general idea is universal, but what happens inside of the "gear box" varies greatly. Gearbox can be used to mean a transfer case or an axle/differential combo. I'll use the generic term gearbox as they both have similar behaviors in the auto industry. A gearbox can allow three things to occur; allow outputs to spin at different speeds (open), lock the outputs together so that they spin at the same speeds (locked), and lock the outputs together so that they spin at the same speeds to a friction point (limited slip). Locked "gearboxes" give the best traction, but the least streetability (think about all four tires of a vehicle travelling the same speeds around a tight curve and the difference in distances travelled by the tires). Now, going back to AWD vs 4WD, in both scenarios, the transfer cases of a vehicle with either system will more than likely guarantee a certain ratio of power to the front and rear wheels. With a locked transfer case, the ratio will be 50/50 (unless you break something ). After the transfer case 'splits' the input, it outputs it to the axles. An axle then takes the input and splits it again in its differential, sending power to the wheels. The differential is another gearbox that can again be open, locked, or have a limited slip. So at this point, we have a transfer case and 2 differentials that can all be open. A very suprising thing can happen to an AWD vehicle with all three being open. Say three wheels have traction on pavement but the third tire is on ice with absolutely no traction. From the engine, power will go to the transfer case, pick the easiest route (to the axle with the tire on ice), then at the axle the power will pick the next easiest route (to the tire on ice), thus giving 100% of your cars power to the one and only tire with absolutely no traction. Industry realized this and designed systems to limit this scenario from happening. The first is the power ratio split guarantee in the transfer case that I mentioned earlier. This will guarantee that each axle gets a portion of the power and at least TWO wheels will spin at this point. But the two wheels can be on separate axles and each wheel still may not have traction (say the two driver side wheels are on ice and the passenger side wheels are on pavement). So, now we have vehicles with active traction control systems. These systems basically use an open differential against itself in certain situation. If you go back to the 3 open diff situation, an active TC system will "see" that the tire on ice is slipping, apply the brake (which gives this power route more resistance) and force the differential to route the power to the opposite wheel on the axle. At this point, the car will have traction and move forward. This system will also work if both tires on an axle have no traction. The system will apply the brakes to the wheels on an axle where both wheels are spinning and the power will then be routed to the opposite axle at the transfer case.

I have three vehicles with varying system that can send power to any of the 4 wheels. I have a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon which allows you to manually lock all three 'gearboxes'. This is the ultimate offroader. I have a Toyota 4Runner which allows you to lock the transfer case and also has an active traction control system that partially makes up for a lack of lockers in the axles. I also have an older truck that has a locked transfer case, locked rear axle, and an open front axle. The most streetable is the 4Runner, but it compensates for itself very well offroad. The least streetable is the truck because its rear axle is locked 100% of the time.

If I were to give you a suggestion right now, I'd have to say either a new Camry or Accord. You can't beat the quality/dependability and with a good set of winter tires, either will give you ample traction.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I agree about the Subaru Legacy. The ride is great and you'll get your AWD.

[EEich]

Hey TAFKAS... I have a Toyota Matrix AWD (in addition to the Prius). Will generally drive that in bad weather. I love it.

I used to be a Honda guy... but I think the Toyotas offer better value and style.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Hey Tafkas: I bought a 2005 GMC Denali XL about a year ago. If you can get one in your price range, I highly recommend the car based on my experiences so far. It has a great navigation system that is fully touch-screen (not all nav. systems are and the ones that are not are much more time-consuming to operate). The engine is a 5.3L V8 with 300 HP. Towing capacity (if it matters) is over 6500 lbs. The cabin is quieter and the ride is smoother than my friends' Lexus and BMW, it has more power, more features, and costs less. The drive system gives you three options: 2WD, AWD, 4WD High, 4WD Low. With the exception of going from 4WD High to 4WD Low, you can switch from one to another as you are driving (up to 60 MPH) by simply turning a switch. Other features: Leather everywhere, 2 separate memory settings (my wife is 5' tall, so this is important for us.......when she uses her remote to open the car, the seat, mirrors, climate control, and radio automatically adjust to her settings), dual zone automatic climate control, DVD player for the rear seat passengers, and a ton of other features. I really think if you look around, you could probably get a 2005 with either these features or slightly less for around the 30k mark depending on mileage.

[dmek25]

that guy you are right about the parts,but American cars are manufactured here in the good ole USA by Americans.it hits me right in the heart to read about people complaining about the economy meanwhile driving some Subaru or honda.yes,some of these cars are manufactured here but the bottom line is someone overseas receives most of the profit.and Chevy and gmc are always offering 0% financing.this is part of the growing trade deficit that we all complain about

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by dmek25

that guy you are right about the parts,but American cars are manufactured here in the good ole USA by Americans.it hits me right in the heart to read about people complaining about the economy meanwhile driving some Subaru or honda.yes,some of these cars are manufactured here but the bottom line is someone overseas receives most of the profit.and Chevy and gmc are always offering 0% financing.this is part of the growing trade deficit that we all complain about

In the other thread, didn't you say you drive a Lexus?

[saden1]

All cars makes have their problems but American companies seem to take a lot of shortcuts, and their cars are not as gas efficient (last time I shopped for a car) nor do they retain their value. I was a witness to my father's Chrysler Concord falling apart just after 6 years. He was lucky to sell it for a 2 grand.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by saden1

All cars makes have their problems but American companies seem to take a lot of shortcuts, and their cars are not as gas efficient (last time I shopped for a car) nor do they retain their value. I was a witness to my father's Chrysler Concord falling apart just after 6 years. He was lucky to sell it for a 2 grand.

Actually, gas mileage is very comparable. What cars were you comparing? I'm sure that if two cars had measurable differences, they probably had differences in power and/or weight as well.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

Actually, gas mileage is very comparable. What cars were you comparing? I'm sure that if two cars had measurable differences, they probably had differences in power and/or weight as well.

Agreed, and I know that GM for one has been increasingly using their displacement on demand technology on their V8s to increase gas mileage without sacrificing performance.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

What cars were you comparing?

I was comparing Chrysler 300M, Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, Pontiac Grand Prix, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, and Nissan Altima sedans.

[dmek25]

no,i dont own a lexus,my daughter does.got it for school when i couldnt talk her into buying american.im proud to say i have never owned anything but american in my lifetime

[SmootSmack]

I really appreciate the advice you guys are giving me.