Civil Discussion About Religion

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by steveo395

I really don't see how some people could believe in evolution. If you actually think about it, the theory says that people formed from rocks if you go all the way back to the beginning of it. Life is too complex to be made by accident.

I know a lot of doctors and scientists who would say something like "simple little man."

Life may seem complex to you, but those with scientific backgrounds and qualifications don't think so. Doctors know a great deal about how our bodies work.

Just because you can't comprehend the complexity of life doesn't mean that others can't.

And no, the theory does not say we formed from rocks. It says life formed from a combination of a couple amino acids. I think you need to read "Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin. That might help you gain a better understanding.

Sorry if I came across harsh in this post. I can understand people choosing to believe in certain religions or other faith based beliefs. But I can't possibly understand anyone who dismisses the theory of evolution. The evidence is OVERWHELMING. Evolution is not a belief, it's a WIDELY accepted scientific theory based on a great deal of actual research as opposed to the Bible, which is based on the writings of several people who lived 2000 years ago.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by jamf

btw, Wolfeskins post was well written and informative, I never knew why we were born with sin, Then right after reading it, I read his Signature and laughed out loud.

did you laugh because you thought it was funny or because you think i'm a hypocrit(sp).

just because you're a christian does'nt mean you have to stop joking around and having fun.

[saden1]

See, we can really be civil about a touchy subject. I honestly and whole heatedly believe in evolution. I mean the easiest answer to a question is to not answer it. That's how I perceive religion. You can't ask the tough questions and if you do you get generic answers that answers. God just exists, he sees all and hears all, everything happens for a reason. it's god's will, etc.

The whole world was created in 6 days just trips me out. Not to mention how [insert word] Ezekiel Bible is. How the heck is it possible that all the big religions began in the Middle East and most prophets are somehow related to each other? How come there are no native South American prophet? Perhaps I am putting too much thought into this

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I can't possibly understand anyone who dismisses the theory of evolution. The evidence is OVERWHELMING. Evolution is not a belief, it's a WIDELY accepted scientific theory based on a great deal of actual research as opposed to the Bible, which is based on the writings of several people who lived 2000 years ago.

without going into details, every evolutionary belief has been proved to be nothing more than theorys

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by steveo395

I really don't see how some people could believe in evolution. If you actually think about it, the theory says that people formed from rocks if you go all the way back to the beginning of it. Life is too complex to be made by accident.

The big bang is also pretty far-fetched. The first law of thermodynamics is that matter can not be created or destroyed, but matter would have had to have been created for the big bang theory to be true.

OK, this is somewhat off the subject since I will comment on the big bang theory, but how is it far fetched? Matter can not be created or destroyed, but it can be expanded or reduced. Like a sperm and egg can turn into a 6 foot 230 pound man.
That being said, what you are standing on (earth) had to have came from somewhere, so the matter is proven because you're on it. So how is it so hard to beleive that a big bang occured to help push life on earth? The matter was there cause it's here now.
Now if you're referring to God being the matter, then I can see your point, but maybe He's not matter...I don't know. Everything comes from somewhere, but there has to be something that did not come from something...not everything can be created. 1 thing has to be ominant. 1 thing had to be there to create it all. Something had to start it all. Is that God? I say yes, it's a logical explanation to me.

About your comment, that life came from rocks...that's not completely true. They came from the ingrediants from those rocks that came together. God is very powerful and if he wanted to create us from dust / rocks, then He can.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Sorry if I came across harsh in this post. I can understand people choosing to believe in certain religions or other faith based beliefs. But I can't possibly understand anyone who dismisses the theory of evolution. The evidence is OVERWHELMING. Evolution is not a belief, it's a WIDELY accepted scientific theory based on a great deal of actual research as opposed to the Bible, which is based on the writings of several people who lived 2000 years ago.

Hold on a sec...we, as humans, love to lump in evolution and the bible. The fact is the bible does not speak of evolution. This does not mean that since we believe in evolution the bible is incorrect, or that if we beleive in the bible that evolution is incorrect. Again I say, the bible is to answer the question of who, not how.
I don't mean to sound as if I don't beleive in evolution, cause I do, but waaay back everyone KNEW the world was flat, and there was plenty of evidence to convince everyone that it was true. OVERWHELMING evidence. So yes, evolution is a belief adopted by the scientific world. It can't really be proven 100%, just like the existance of God can't be proven 100%. Nor can either be disproven 100%. I am a Christian, and believe that God does exist, but I would not go so far as to say that it is FACT (not that you said that word) when it is opinion. Theory is just that...an opinion. However it is widely recognized throughout the science community that they are unsure of how everything first started. They can go back to the big bang time (or so) and have theories of how it all started. When you ask them where the rocks came from, they don't know, in fact a lot of scientists became Christians due to the fact that they can't figure it out and that it is obviously a design from a higher being. You can keep going farther and farther back until you can't go back anymore, then ask yourself what is left. In my opinion, it can only be God...but if you choose to believe there is none, then what is the answer?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by saden1

The whole world was created in 6 days just trips me out.

I look at it this way, whoever made the earth and universe obviously has the power to speed up the process to 6 days, or 1 second, or let it evolve over a billion years. I also leave the thought open that the people that translated the bible could have misinterpreted the 6 days, when it was 6 million years or something...but most of all, I prescribe to the theory that it doesn't matter. When I am being judged in front of God I doubt he's going to ask me "Did you beleive the world was created in 6 days or billions of years?" And if I answer the wrong way, I go to hell. I am assuming, to Him, it doesn't matter. If it did, he would have been WAAAY more specific.

Not to mention how [insert word] Ezekiel Bible is. How the heck is it possible that all the big religions began in the Middle East and most prophets are somehow related to each other? How come there are no native South American prophet? Perhaps I am putting too much thought into this

I didn't want to say this cause it sounds so anti-God, but what if God sent all these prophets to bring everyone to Him (as in God himself)? Why is it that almost every religion has 1 common denominator..God himself. Whether they call Him Allah or God is irrelevant. I look at it this way, God is all loving and understanding, and understands we are all flawed and eaily swayed, so why are there soooo many religions? Why give us that many religions and lead us to believe that if we choose the wrong one, we go to hell? I don't think he would. I think we will be judged on our life, and our love of God and our pursuit to act the way he wants us to. We are all saved by grace and grace alone, it's not up to me who makes it, but Him. He may choose to save all of us, or none of us. I prefer to think of God as someone that loves us, and grace will cover a wide array...even though it says in the bible the road to hell is wide and many will travel, but the road to heaven is narrow and few will find.
I feel that those who give up searching for Truth, simply because that's the easiest route, anger God. People say that evolution is widely recognized, therefore can't be dismissed...well even MORE people believe that there is a God of some sort...just taking a stab in the dark, but easily 90%+ do. So why is it easier to ignore the 90%+ of the world in relation to God, but follow the smaller group that only believes in evolution. (that's rhetorical)
I just feel it in my bones that there is a God, and my mind agrees. If there isn't one when I die, I lived a good life and have nothing to be upset over. However if I were a non believer and died and there IS a God, I'd be sweating bullets. Not that I prescribe to that theory as the reasoning to prove a God, just that it's a pretty solid way to look at things. Almost along the lines of "better to be safe than sorry."
Sorry for the ramble.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

My mother grew up Catholic, and when I was young I went to Catholic church. As I got older I went to a few other churches, including Baptist, Episcopalian, and Morman. The entire time, I was Athiest and I didn't involve myself much in the church. I always thought that Faith was a noble thing, and that organized religions sought to make an industry of it. So, I pretty much ignored all organized religion on the basis that it was a profit industry.

When I got to college I started to learn the different religions of the world. I have studied Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Ba'hai, blah, blah, etc. However, all from a student perspective -- not from a spiritual perspective. The best thing I learned from my studies was a proper definition of religion: Human transformation in response to perceived ultimacy. Once I applied this definition to religion, I was able to see that everything or anything can be a religion -- as long as it's something you perceive as ultimate. I realized that I perceived science as ultimate, and that my transformation in response to that perception was my religion.

Throughout my life, I became overwhelmed with the guilt of my sins and was strongly compelled to pray and repent. It helps during times of despair, and I value prayer. However, I wouldn't say that I pray TO anyone/anything, or that I pray FOR someone/something -- I pray to relieve my guilt, and nothing else. It's really kinda selfish.

Throughout my spiritual journey I have come to one conclusion: the details aren't important. Most religions are centered around details. For example: is there a God? What happens after death? Who is the prophet? How did we receive God's word? I don't think the answers to these questions are important. Yet, it seems most people seek religion based on those answers. It all seems so very illusory.

I am truly torn when it comes to religion and science. However, when I try to comprehend our universe it all seems so fantastical. I think, "here we are on this gigantic rock, spinning, and orbiting a massive fire ball." I think about our solar system, and the galaxies. I think about the billions upon billions of stars. Then I stop to think about what our universe is in. And what is THAT in? And so on, and so on -- it could never stop. So, the only way for me to make sense of it, is to say that it's not real -- it can't be, because it's just too unreal.

nice post

[MTK]

I'm a non-believer but at the same time I'm not ready to dismiss anything. That's the one thing that really irks me about debates like this. Who are we to sit here and definitively say one side of the fence is wrong and one side is right. It's a very individualized thought process and everyone should respect other's opinions. For all we know we could ALL be wrong. Perhaps we're some sort of experimental ant farm for aliens. Hey, you never really know.

[Schneed10]

Blah blah blah. Religion is simply something manifested by the human mind to provide comfort and solace when dealing with the unknown. Religion helps give humans the feeling that there is rhyme or reason to the world we live in. Religion provides the sense that there is a purpose to life: to live a good life and get into heaven. It provides comfort regarding the unknowns which humans face, like what happens to me when I die? Do I live on, or is the show over? Religion comforts humans; the presence of a higher power must surely mean that I'm in good hands, even when I'm entering the unknown: death.

People believe it because deep down they don't want to face the alternative: that when you die you go nowhere, your life is simply over. And that your life was not part of some grand scheme; you simply lived and died.

Those alternatives are scary, but they're the truth. Religion is just a crutch humans use to go about their daily lives in false comfort.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

without going into details, every evolutionary belief has been proved to be nothing more than theorys

The only reason the theories can't be proven was because we weren't around to record history over the course of billions of years. I'd love for you to go into details, because all of the arguments against the theory of evolution are scientifically flimsy at best.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

People believe it because deep down they don't want to face the alternative: that when you die you go nowhere, your life is simply over. And that your life was not part of some grand scheme; you simply lived and died.

Those alternatives are scary, but they're the truth. Religion is just a crutch humans use to go about their daily lives in false comfort.

But how do you know that? Again, I'm pretty much on your side with that, I think pretty much when you die, you just die just like you. But how do you know? Thats the best part about the whole thing, is you really dont know. How do you explain people "leaving their bodies and then coming back to life". Just some of the things that happen in this world just seem to weird to me to not belive there is some type of a god, and then at the same time it sounds rediculous to me. But I'm with Matty, I really dont belive in much, but I really cant disprove anything. I find myself praying to god somtimes when I want somthing, ya know? Unforunatley we'll all find out the truth one way or the other lol.

PS: Saden, you're right. When you posted this I was just waiting for the war, maybe if you just put Civil in front of anything touchy, we'll all behave lol.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Hold on a sec...we, as humans, love to lump in evolution and the bible. The fact is the bible does not speak of evolution. This does not mean that since we believe in evolution the bible is incorrect, or that if we beleive in the bible that evolution is incorrect. Again I say, the bible is to answer the question of who, not how.
I don't mean to sound as if I don't beleive in evolution, cause I do, but waaay back everyone KNEW the world was flat, and there was plenty of evidence to convince everyone that it was true. OVERWHELMING evidence. So yes, evolution is a belief adopted by the scientific world. It can't really be proven 100%, just like the existance of God can't be proven 100%. Nor can either be disproven 100%. I am a Christian, and believe that God does exist, but I would not go so far as to say that it is FACT (not that you said that word) when it is opinion. Theory is just that...an opinion. However it is widely recognized throughout the science community that they are unsure of how everything first started. They can go back to the big bang time (or so) and have theories of how it all started. When you ask them where the rocks came from, they don't know, in fact a lot of scientists became Christians due to the fact that they can't figure it out and that it is obviously a design from a higher being. You can keep going farther and farther back until you can't go back anymore, then ask yourself what is left. In my opinion, it can only be God...but if you choose to believe there is none, then what is the answer?

The limits of the human mind, that's the answer. Why is it that everything had to be created by someone or something? Is there a law that says all matter had to come from somewhere? Why did it have to be created? Why couldn't it just exist?

The concept that everything was somehow created comes from the book of Genesis. Deep down, people believe somehow the Earth, world, universe, whatever, was created. Then they try to apply that belief to the Big Bang and everything else, asking "well if the universe came from a Big Bang, then where did all the matter come in the first place?"

The true question: was matter created by someone/something? Or does it just exist?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

But how do you know that? Again, I'm pretty much on your side with that, I think pretty much when you die, you just die just like you. But how do you know? Thats the best part about the whole thing, is you really dont know. How do you explain people "leaving their bodies and then coming back to life". Just some of the things that happen in this world just seem to weird to me to not belive there is some type of a god, and then at the same time it sounds rediculous to me. But I'm with Matty, I really dont belive in much, but I really cant disprove anything. I find myself praying to god somtimes when I want somthing, ya know? Unforunatley we'll all find out the truth one way or the other lol.

PS: Saden, you're right. When you posted this I was just waiting for the war, maybe if you just put Civil in front of anything touchy, we'll all behave lol.

You're absolutely right, nobody knows for sure what happens when we die. A lot of scientists theorize that your brain stores a lifetime of memories, kind of like a computer. When you're alive, there's a system in place to suppress all of your memories from coming to the forefront of your attention, so that you can focus on learning and doing tasks. But when you die, that system begins to fail and all of your stored memories come to the forefront of your attention.

They theorize that when people have had near death experiences and have seen images of loved ones, they're actually hallucinating because of a combination of 1) the lack of oxygen to the brain (hence a change in chemical balance) and 2) memories surfacing in the brain.

You're right, these theories have not been proven, hence we call them theories. I find those explanations a lot more plausible then the existence of a heaven and a God. But you're right, I do not know for sure.

But an examination of human nature sure does point in one direction: humans are scared, fragile creatures. The fact that we are self-aware and conscious, combined with the fact that we will all die, combined with the fact that we feel so much grief when a loved one dies, creates a great deal of anxiety and defines the human condition. We search for an explanation of what life means and what death is like, but we find none. In the absence of explanation, we fall back on faith. Because without it, we're too scared to face what is most likely the truth:

That when a loved one dies, you will never see them again. That when you die, you will cease to exist. And that your life was just that, a life, nothing more.

When you read those words there, did you get a chill up your spine? Did you feel a little scared or even a little depressed? That's why religion was created: people just don't want to believe it. And they'd much rather go through life believing something else.

I can't knock it. Anything that makes you feel less scared is probably a good thing.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

You're absolutely right, nobody knows for sure what happens when we die. A lot of scientists theorize that your brain stores a lifetime of memories, kind of like a computer. When you're alive, there's a system in place to suppress all of your memories from coming to the forefront of your attention, so that you can focus on learning and doing tasks. But when you die, that system begins to fail and all of your stored memories come to the forefront of your attention.

They theorize that when people have had near death experiences and have seen images of loved ones, they're actually hallucinating because of a combination of 1) the lack of oxygen to the brain (hence a change in chemical balance) and 2) memories surfacing in the brain.

You're right, these theories have not been proven, hence we call them theories. I find those explanations a lot more plausible then the existence of a heaven and a God. But you're right, I do not know for sure.

But an examination of human nature sure does point in one direction: humans are scared, fragile creatures. The fact that we are self-aware and conscious, combined with the fact that we will all die, combined with the fact that we feel so much grief when a loved one dies, creates a great deal of anxiety and defines the human condition. We search for an explanation of what life means and what death is like, but we find none. In the absence of explanation, we fall back on faith. Because without it, we're too scared to face what is most likely the truth:

That when a loved one dies, you will never see them again. That when you die, you will cease to exist. And that your life was just that, a life, nothing more.

When you read those words there, did you get a chill up your spine? Did you feel a little scared or even a little depressed? That's why religion was created: people just don't want to believe it. And they'd much rather go through life believing something else.

I can't knock it. Anything that makes you feel less scared is probably a good thing.

Thats pretty much exactly what I think. I think alot of religions are so people feel better somtimes, and you know what good for them. I mean I tend to have the faith that there is a heaven, and when someone dies they have a spirt somewhere...but do I really belive it? Not really. But it makes me feel better about it, so it's what people do. But that post is pretty much 100% spot on what I belive. And you're right, you can't knock it because dying is a scary thing to think about, so whatever you need to do to face it is what you should do.