WP article: Time for Gibbs to walk away?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

The mark of a great coach in this league is doing less with more - think what Crennel is doing, or Herm Edwards, or Gruden in Tampa this year. Either the Skins aren't as talented as we think or they aren't extracting the most from the talent they have; either way, Gibbs is accountable for that ... (snip) ... But 3 1/2 years into a Superbowl rebuilding project, with unlimited resources and unlimited support, is that enough?

This is an excellent question. Sometimes I do wonder, just how talented is this team? Trying to look at it objectively, from an outsiders point of view -- one might say the following ...

-- Santana Moss has really only had one good year. Is he a flash in the pan? Was 2005 his peak?

-- Clinton Portis. Against NFC East opponents, arguably the most important contests of the season, he averages just 73 yards per game over 17 games. Either he truly isn't 100% healthy, or we have ourselves an average running back. Even for as young as he is, the wear and tear is starting to really show.

-- Was Randle El designed to be a #2 receiver? Or was his role primarily a returner and #3 slot/slash type player? Just what is his role supposed to be?

-- Offensive line. It was really good last year, but everybody else wasn't. Talk about bad timing. Another unit that was reaching its peak, and needed to move in the direction of a rebuild.

-- Quarterback. The future is indeed bright for Jason Campbell, but he's not there yet.

Is three and a half years enough time? Like I said earlier, the gap shouldn't have been this wide between us and the Patriots. I think there have been some dismal personnel decisions with Gibbs calling the shots. If you're rebuilding, then why bring in Brunell in a "Win Now" philosophy? How much further ahead would Campbell have been if he'd gotten the chance to start earlier?

When you really look at it, we need help at offensive line, wide receiver, cornerback, and defensive end. That's a fair amount of work to do after four years of 'rebuilding'. Overall, it's been a mix/mash with one good year out of three, and a shaky 4-3 record in year four with a murky, could be decent, could be ugly outlook.

I think we can all agree this isn't the state Gibbs wanted to be in at this point.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

It's a well-reasoned, well-written article, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of it.

While Sherrif is absolutely correct that this question doesn't need to be pondered until after the season - hell, the Skins could win out and go to the Superbowl and then we would view things very differently - the main indictment of the article, that Gibbs 2.0 is lacking something on a tactical level, unfortunately has to be seriously considered.

The mark of a great coach in this league is doing less with more - think what Crennel is doing, or Herm Edwards, or Gruden in Tampa this year. Either the Skins aren't as talented as we think or they aren't extracting the most from the talent they have; either way, Gibbs is accountable for that.

I have yet to have seen a game in this second tenure where I felt our offense was superior on a purely strategic level. Sure there have been moments in 2005 where we overpowered people with what was probably superior talent, but when have we had a win where we beat a better team just by being better prepared than them? Where is that signature upset? This weekend was a chance to show, even if we can't beat the Pats, we can play with them and we were utterly humiliated. Not only was their talent superior but we weren't prepared and didn't adjust to anything they were doing.

Did anyone hear Doc's interview of Campbell this week on his radio show? SportsTalk 980 - Washington, DC. I was stunned by the ferocity with which Doc hammered Jason, even though I had to agree with him, particularily when Doc questioned him on their strategy for attacking Asante Samuel. Why no adjustments? Why no change in approach when the game was getting out of hand?

I'm still drinking the Kool-Aid, and I still think we are going to the playoffs. But the larger issue here, that we are not maximizing our talent and never out-strategizing our opponents, is unfortunately carrying a lot of merit.

4-3 is fine. 5-3 will be great. The playoffs will be exciting. But 3 1/2 years into a Superbowl rebuilding project, with unlimited resources and unlimited support, is that enough?

Great post, and I agree 100%. Halftime adjustments, "surprise" wins over "favored" opponents, always stepping up for divisional games, blue collar players who came out of nowhere to have the games of their lives for the Redskins, and above all else, playing with discipline and pride -- these are the traits of Joe Gibbs football as we remember them.

Now, we know that many of the things that contributed to that atmosphere of winning are no longer here -- I've always lamented the departure of Bobby Beathard and anybody who was a Skins/Gibbs fan back in the day knows full well what Bobby meant to our organization. Cerrato is no Bobby Beathard. Shapiro isn't the first to suggest we try to get Scott Pioli, who may be one of the only modern dudes I've ever heard legitimately compared to Beathard.

And, I think Shapiro is dead on questioning the mentality of current players. I don't know that the team we have now has the right combination of fire, respect for the institution and the Man who's trying to restore greatness to it, and overall work ethic that we need. The phrase "true Redskin" is tossed about an awful lot, but we still end up with guys making an uncharacteristic number of mental mistakes, coughing up the football, playing without intensity, or worst of all, just not playing much at all (Lloyd, Arch Deluxe, et al).

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

It's a well-reasoned, well-written article, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of it.

While Sherrif is absolutely correct that this question doesn't need to be pondered until after the season - hell, the Skins could win out and go to the Superbowl and then we would view things very differently - the main indictment of the article, that Gibbs 2.0 is lacking something on a tactical level, unfortunately has to be seriously considered.

The mark of a great coach in this league is doing less with more - think what Crennel is doing, or Herm Edwards, or Gruden in Tampa this year. Either the Skins aren't as talented as we think or they aren't extracting the most from the talent they have; either way, Gibbs is accountable for that.

I have yet to have seen a game in this second tenure where I felt our offense was superior on a purely strategic level. Sure there have been moments in 2005 where we overpowered people with what was probably superior talent, but when have we had a win where we beat a better team just by being better prepared than them? Where is that signature upset? This weekend was a chance to show, even if we can't beat the Pats, we can play with them and we were utterly humiliated. Not only was their talent superior but we weren't prepared and didn't adjust to anything they were doing.

Did anyone hear Doc's interview of Campbell this week on his radio show? SportsTalk 980 - Washington, DC. I was stunned by the ferocity with which Doc hammered Jason, even though I had to agree with him, particularily when Doc questioned him on their strategy for attacking Asante Samuel. Why no adjustments? Why no change in approach when the game was getting out of hand?

I'm still drinking the Kool-Aid, and I still think we are going to the playoffs. But the larger issue here, that we are not maximizing our talent and never out-strategizing our opponents, is unfortunately carrying a lot of merit.

4-3 is fine. 5-3 will be great. The playoffs will be exciting. But 3 1/2 years into a Superbowl rebuilding project, with unlimited resources and unlimited support, is that enough?

DJ, I don't think I could have possibly summed up my sentiments any better than you did in your post. I think most of the so called Gibbs haters or bashers have a difficult team articulating exactly how they feel about the situation at hand. Think about it, the Redskins are 4-3 and could possilby control their own destiny. On one hand Gibbs is a legend and so many feel indebted to him, on the other hand, well, the team hasn't quite turned the corner as many have expected. And for various reasons, mind you.

But my fundamental frustration has been, is Gibbs doing more with less? While the talent is developing, while Jason is still growing as a quarterback, is Gibbs or the staff "ahead" of the team and requiring them to catch up in the meantime? Let's face it, in the NFL injuries are a reality not an excuse. This year the offensive line has been decimated, last year it was the secondary and an untimely injury to Portis. Next year, just as sure as we're sitting here, it will be some other key player or maybe two. Who knows?

Game after game, particularly the wins, I feel as though the Redskins actually have to outplay not just the opponent, but at times overcome the coaching itself. Somehow, it seems to me, this team has to rise to a certain level of competition to compensate for what they lack in savvy, ingenuity, cohesiveness, preparation and chemistry. If those things aren't there, then generally it's a nail biter or a flat out loss.

[skinsguy]

Hindsight is 20/20. We're all geniuses after the fact. I say to revisit this after the season is over.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Hindsight is 20/20. We're all geniuses after the fact. I say to revisit this after the season is over.

Some of us were questioning the personnel moves from the very beginning.

[SFREDSKIN]

Time for Leonard Shapiro to walk away!! Gibbs walked into a screwed up situation, it takes time to fix the problems he's faced, it takes time to develop skills and confidence on a young QB. I think he's really close to building a contender, now or at the end of the season is not the time to walk away, injuries to key players haven't helped. Let the man fulfill his contract and if next year he screws up then he can walk away. If he walks away now you are going to start all over again as a new coaching staff will mold the team to their liking and we'll be bitching about Gibbs walking away because of all the changes. Gibbs is not a quitter and will not walk away until he succeeds, I'm sick and tired of all the FUCKING whiners and doubters. Either you root for this team or go FUCK yourselves!!!!

[Daseal]

I see Joe Gibbs trying to build this team from the ground up.

I'm curious how you see this. To me it seems like the same thing. High priced free agents: (Portis, Moss, Lloyd, Kendell, El, Fletcher, Carter, Archeletta, etc etc. He's done fairly well drafting, and he's also gotten some steals such as Marcus Washington.

I just don't see Gibbs as building this team for the future, he built it for the here and now. I think our lack of depth on the team (except running back and defensive back) has been pretty sad. Our offensive line is old and while you wouldn't expect this many injuries, you also shouldn't be getting your starting guard 2-3 weeks before the regular season begins.

[twinskinsfan]

Here we go again. Gibbs must go, c'mon. Lets focus on this season.

[Lady Brave]

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally feel like I owe something to Coach Gibbs. He sacrificed a alot personally during his first tenure to make us a winning franchise and it's because of him I have so many great memories of this team. I sometimes wonder if I would be such a die hard fan of this team if it weren't for him.

When he came back, I thought to myself, "Regardless of whether or not he's able to make us a winning team again, I'm just glad he cared enough to come back and at least try." He didn't do it for the money. He didn't do it for his ego. He did it because he cares about this organization and its fans. He left a thriving NASCAR team, sold his shares with the Falcons, and sacrificed, again, precious time with his family in order to help this team. Because of that reason, I feel indebted to him and give him my full support for as long as he chooses to be here regardless of the outcome.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Lady Brave

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally feel like I owe something to Coach Gibbs. He sacrificed a alot personally during his first tenure to make us a winning franchise and it's because of him I have so many great memories of this team. I sometimes wonder if I would be such a die hard fan of this team if it weren't for him.

When he came back, I thought to myself, "Regardless of whether or not he's able to make us a winning team again, I'm just glad he cared enough to come back and at least try." He didn't do it for the money. He didn't do it for his ego. He did it because he cares about this organization and its fans. He left a thriving NASCAR team, sold his shares with the Falcons, and sacrificed, again, precious time with his family in order to help this team. Because of that reason, I feel indebted to him and give him my full support for as long as he chooses to be here regardless of the outcome.

That pretty much sums up my feelings as well. No matter what happens I greatly appreciate his efforts in trying to bring the Redskins back to life. As you said, I think is intentions in coming back were very genuine and he is a true Redskin for life. He helped put the Redskins back on the map in the 80's and early 90's and for that we as fans should be forever grateful.

[Daseal]

Gibbs is not a quitter and will not walk away until he succeeds, I'm sick and tired of all the FUCKING whiners and doubters. Either you root for this team or go FUCK yourselves!!!!

Please go back to extreme skins. We only want posters around that can actually look at a situation, then sit down and type out their thoughts. If you're really ignorant enough to think people who doubt Gibbs aren't fans, I'm surprised you can boot your computer up. If you don't agree, fine. However, questioning the fan hood of people on this board is just an asinine move. The Redskins don't exactly hold on to fair weather fans. This team has given me 8 ulcers already.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Please go back to extreme skins. We only want posters around that can actually look at a situation, then sit down and type out their thoughts. If you're really ignorant enough to think people who doubt Gibbs aren't fans, I'm surprised you can boot your computer up. If you don't agree, fine. However, questioning the fan hood of people on this board is just an asinine move. The Redskins don't exactly hold on to fair weather fans. This team has given me 8 ulcers already.

It's ok. I've already spoken to SFRedskins. We're going to move on with the discussion now

[irish]

I was never too excited with the idea of bringing Gibbs back in the first place mostly because of his age. I would have preferred the Skins hire a coach that could have potentailly stayed around 10+ years (if everything went well) and get his system running for a longer period of time. IMO Gibbs's age made it hard for him to stick around more than his 5 yr contract so by the time he really got things up & running it was time for him to retire and bring in someone new (that would want to implement his own system).

Now that Gibbs has been here awhile I can only say I am disappointed. His record is mediocre and the team is only in slightly better shape then when he came in. He just does not see to be the same coach that I remember from the 80s. I think thats because of changes in the league & Gibbs.

I think Gibbs has earned the right (from Gibbs 1.0) to decide for himself when he will go but when he does I wont be very upset (I never would have imagined 4 years ago I'd say that).

[SmootSmack]

I probably wouldn't have joined this site if not for Gibbs...some would say that would have been a good thing

[bertoskins2]

This is true, but who else would replace Gibbs in this franchise. we are afraid to return back to the norv/marty/spurrier days, though marty is worth looking for again, despite his reputation for playoff meltdown.

though coaching has past Gibbs, what we need here is continuity. and changing for this organization equals bad things, and up to know there is still traces of the result of these changes.