Indefinite detentions under Obama???

[REDSKIN1]

I'm pretty much split down the middle on this issue. On one hand being former military, I can agree with what the Bush administration did. And although I don't beleive in physical torture, I do beleive in mental torture to influence the enemy to release valuable information that may not only save the lives of american citizens but of the soldiers who are on the ground doing the job. That information is vital to operational success and if anyone thinks that a prisoner of war is just going to walk up and start giving up information freely, then you are sadley mistaken. If anyone thinks that if any other country captured a prisoner of war and does not physically torture them, then they need to wake up and join us in the real world. The problem that I have is these guys have sit in this prison for so long that the ones who are were not terriost are now probably just as dangerous as the ones that are not. So what do you do with them and where would you send them?

I love Obama but I would not announce to the world that we are not going to torture prisoners anymore, because by saying that you have just put the U.S. at a operational disadvantage when they do capture prisoners of war. I would have just said that we intend to handle prisoners and detainees differently than the previous administration and left it as that. Just my opinion.....

[70Chip]

Anyone that is captured on the battlefield should be held until the war is over. Obama seems to be acknowledging that his election did not end the war - which is to say that the war against terror now has added legitimacy. Until the Jihadists are defeated or we are defeated, we have every right to detain these people outside of the domestic legal system.

[70Chip]

Interesting note on the torture angle. I'm reading a book called Legacy of Ashes which is a history of the CIA. In the 1950s, the Agency gave prisoners at a penitentiary in Kentucky (regular prisoners mind you, not Russians or Cubans or captured commies) LSD for 77 straight days. Apparently they were just seeing what would happen. Now, for anyone who hasn't taken acid, trust me. After about the third day on government LSD in a prison setting, which was probably a very strongish dose, waterboarding would seem fairly tame. The point is that, this country has a long history of pushing the envelope in all sorts of areas. To pretend that Bush did something new or extraordinary is laughable.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

Interesting note on the torture angle. I'm reading a book called Legacy of Ashes which is a history of the CIA. In the 1950s, the Agency gave prisoners at a penitentiary in Kentucky (regular prisoners mind you, not Russians or Cubans or captured commies) LSD for 77 straight days. Apparently they were just seeing what would happen. Now, for anyone who hasn't taken acid, trust me. After about the third day on government LSD in a prison setting, which was probably a very strongish dose, waterboarding would seem fairly tame. The point is that, this country has a long history of pushing the envelope in all sorts of areas. To pretend that Bush did something new or extraordinary is laughable.

70, i totally agree with this post. i know, it must be a first

[saden1]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

Interesting note on the torture angle. I'm reading a book called Legacy of Ashes which is a history of the CIA. In the 1950s, the Agency gave prisoners at a penitentiary in Kentucky (regular prisoners mind you, not Russians or Cubans or captured commies) LSD for 77 straight days. Apparently they were just seeing what would happen. Now, for anyone who hasn't taken acid, trust me. After about the third day on government LSD in a prison setting, which was probably a very strongish dose, waterboarding would seem fairly tame. The point is that, this country has a long history of pushing the envelope in all sorts of areas. To pretend that Bush did something new or extraordinary is laughable.

LOL...good one. We've done it before, and we can do it again because we've done it before. To infinity and beyond!

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by saden1

LOL...good one. We've done it before, and we can do it again because we've done it before. To infinity and beyond!

Of course it doesn't alter the moral correctness of waterboarding. It only demonstrates the selective nature of your outrage. How convenient that you would come to Jesus during a Republican admininistration. Obama's recent backtracking leaves you in the position of having to un-come to Jesus visa vis national security (assuming you are loyal to The Baraq). I suspect he's trying to shake you weirdie beards loose. He's trying to seem a little more mainstreamish.

[BleedBurgundy]

Something else to think about is the word "Terrorist." What defines someone as a terrorist as opposed to a revolutionary/activist/conventional enemy? It's been said many times previously, but in the second half of the 18th century, terrorists went by the names of Washington, Jefferson and Adams, just to name a few. Terrorist, or in the Bushian vernacular "torrist," is just the latest broad brush that we use to paint anyone with views in opposition to our own. Many of the inmates in Gitmo are enemy combatants. Thus they were "terrorists." Yet, in the 1930s and '40s we somehow resisted the urge to keep indefinitely all Axis POW's that we captured. I really fail to see what the difference is aside from the obvious cultural distinctions. Again, these are all conversations in the abstract because right and wrong don't truly exist in a situation like this. We can use vocabulary to justify whatever we want and spin it a thousand times. The problem is that there are a large percentage of Americans who believe their own bullshit.

[Daseal]

Who have we tortured ? Waterboarding is NOT torture . Waterboarding causes ,,,, ZERO injuries ,,, no muscle or ligament damage , no respitory illness , no lung desease , no eye , ear or throat damage . We are not waterboaring service men / women ,,, these people are terrorists targeting civilians . Show me how what we are doing today is equal to what the Germans/ Japanese or VC did to our SOLDIERS ? I understand your point , but comparing WB'ing with Breaking Bones and starving people to death is like apples and oranges , IMO . And they are not criminals they are terrorists .

If you don't feel like the sensation of drowning is torture, then I feel you're severely mistaken. Just because there's no 'physical' pain doesn't mean that the pain is still great. I couldn't think of anything worse than sleep deprivation myself. The fact is, most of the people in gitmo probably aren't all that bad. If they were so radical and terrible, wouldn't we be able to have evidence to charge them? I feel like everyone deserves their day in court.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by Daseal

If you don't feel like the sensation of drowning is torture, then I feel you're severely mistaken. Just because there's no 'physical' pain doesn't mean that the pain is still great. I couldn't think of anything worse than sleep deprivation myself. The fact is, most of the people in gitmo probably aren't all that bad. If they were so radical and terrible, wouldn't we be able to have evidence to charge them? I feel like everyone deserves their day in court.

Hey Deasal , how are you . I agree with you that we should not treat EVERY guy we pick up on a battllefield the same , Im sure more than a few just joined the fight . As far as sleep deprivation , loud music ect. I would imagine that many are not subjected to that for long if they will not talk . As for waterboarding , it is used < as I was told > , only on " high level " targets , whom we believe have info on terror attacks or planning of attacks , ect . I do not want us to just beat the hell out of any fighter after he is detained , but if we capture a top Al Queda member , i just hope we do what ever we have to to save lives . As long as the trial is military < no evidence is released to the public or lawyers > , then Im fine .

[Trample the Elderly]

All is fair in Love and War.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

All is fair in Love and War.

Including suicide bombings?

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by saden1

Including suicide bombings?

That's right. They're playing hardball and you guys are worried about their stinking rights?

Americans are just as capable of playing hardball. Flying on a fire-bombing mission into a wall of anti-aircraft fire, over a fully industrialized nation, is nothing short of suicide.

[firstdown]

I don't get why people are so worked up over waderboarding people whos misson in life is to kill us. We did it to three people and it lead to us saving lives. Obama released the meathods we used but for political reasons decided not to release the results we had from waterboarding. I personaly think that because if Americans knew how well it work their opinion might change.

[Daseal]

FD - Didn't a CIA operative just say that waterboarding gave us absolutely no useful information behind a screen to Congress? Honestly, I'm not really against torture. But I also realize it is an action that can also be taken against our soldiers. I guess my biggest issue is that we have no evidence on the guys we're doing this to, instead we THINK they're connected. Would you be fine being abducted and tortured because they THOUGHT you may be an Anti-American terrorist? No, you'd be screaming for a lawyer and proof.

All I'm asking is torture people you know have information.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Daseal

FD - Didn't a CIA operative just say that waterboarding gave us absolutely no useful information behind a screen to Congress? Honestly, I'm not really against torture. But I also realize it is an action that can also be taken against our soldiers. I guess my biggest issue is that we have no evidence on the guys we're doing this to, instead we THINK they're connected. Would you be fine being abducted and tortured because they THOUGHT you may be an Anti-American terrorist? No, you'd be screaming for a lawyer and proof.

All I'm asking is torture people you know have information.

No I have heard just the opposite and people are calling for the white house to release those memos. Waderboarding was only used on two or three people and one of the guys was one of the master minds behind 9/11.