Draft Contest, What Would You Have Done?

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by Daseal

He also touched the ball more than most other backs in the league and had a rather stingy 3.8 yards a carry. That was running in a poor offensive scheme, if we let him touch the ball that many times and actually let him play how he feels comfortable it may not matter if they stack the box!

Not to get into this but Portis touched the ball just as many times or there abouts as the top 8 or 9 backs in the league. I wont/cant dispute his yards per carry but I dont believe that Portis is all to blame for his drop in yards per carry, I mean it does take a team effort.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RYDS/2004/regular

YDS ATT AVG TD LONG
1 Curtis Martin NYJ 1697 371 4.6 12 25
2 Shaun Alexander SEA 1696 353 4.8 16 44
3 Corey Dillon NE 1635 345 4.7 12 44
4 Edgerrin James IND 1548 334 4.6 9 40
5 Tiki Barber NYG 1518 322 4.7 13 72
6 Rudi Johnson CIN 1454 361 4.0 12 52
7 LaDainian Tomlinson SD 1335 339 3.9 17 42
8 Clinton Portis WAS 1315 343 3.8 5 64

Sorry about the poor lines

With the exception of td's LaDainian Tomlinson had a very similar year to Portis, but LT's offense did have a passing attack.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Well, first of all, it wasn't a poor offensive scheme. Secondly, if Portis is unhappy with how much he's going to be used (which sounds kind of stupid in my opinion), then he doesn't belong in Washington. This scheme relies on a run first approach and run often in order to control the ball and the clock. If this was actually a poor scheme, then Gibbs would have never been successful in his first tenure - and the excuse that football was different back then is hog wash.

Our offensive line had alot to do with Portis not gaining 10+ yards per carry.

That's been the point why bring in a back like Portis when he clearly doesn't fit the scheme.

Now controlling the clock with the run is not a scheme, how you control it with the run is, and what I mean by that is what kind of a running game do we use, if it's a power running game then why bring in Portis? If it's a finess running game then why not do it.

Our line wasen't as bad as it was made out to be, I prefer to listen to Portis who has some experience running in that offense when he say's the other team's know where we are running the ball, couple that with opposing defenses stating that they knew where the plays were going, that the play's we ran were very simplistic, and easy to diagnois, I say that's an indictment on gibbs not the line, granted that our line was not great but not nearly as bad as they looked. I don't care how good your line is if you can't throw it enough to keep a defense honest you wont be able to run the ball, and we didn't come close to keeping the defenses honest.

I believe you said we had no need for a center/guard in the draft, yet blame the line for our running problems last year, and after seeing what you percieve to be a shabby line you wouldn't want to take the steps neccassary to add depth so if we have an injury we aren't strapped with a line that can't block?


I think the perception by some is that Gibb's used his big back's primarly on short yardage play's, well not so, he used them as his primary back, and used the speed guy's ala J.Washington, K.Bryant, and so on, on passing downs.

As for Football being different back in Gibbs first tenure? Yes, and no, What daseal is saying is Gibbs isn't running the team like he did back in the day, that's where the problem lies, yes with free agency, salary cap, clock management, things are different, but so is Gibbs, there is also something different about Gibbs now that wasen't back in the 80's, he had Bobby Beathard to bring in the players for him to succeed, I can tell you this Beathard found Schroeder in the 3rd, and Rypien, and Humphries in the 6th rd. About the same area we should have found Campbell.

Beathard left the Skins because he was fed up fighting with gibbs on personell, and I will give the trade that did it, it was the Gerald riggs for our #1, in which Beathard was going to use to draft Icky Woods, he allowed Gibbs to have his way and then left, his exact words "well Joe got his RB".

Gibbs of the past is gone he now has to reprove himself again, as he would be the first to agree, and after our abismal offensive effort last season he has a lot to prove.

[RedskinsJunkie]

Originally Posted by drew54

Agreed, but he is not a Character player. And blame Sean Taylor, but I think Gibbs will never draft another "U" type ME first player.

I know he had some issues in the past, but this is past the times of Bosic, Monk, Green, Etc... I think the guy has been very humble and he played well in Arena. I love the Mccunes pick too. I really think they needed to go WR Mike Williams with number 9 or like you said trade back and at least get Roddy White and a D lineman...

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I just feel like we'll regret not picking Williams. I know if we DID get him it would have COMPLETELY changed our strategy for the draft. I just think he might be something special for Detroit.

And that pansy-ass Harrington throwing him passes... argh.

[RedskinsJunkie]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

I just feel like we'll regret not picking Williams. I know if we DID get him it would have COMPLETELY changed our strategy for the draft. I just think he might be something special for Detroit.

And that pansy-ass Harrington throwing him passes... argh.

I am with you... He is special, Everyone was nuts about Braylon but he had 39 TDs in 4 years and M. Williams 30 in 2??? Even if he is a redzone target that is still MIGHTY impressive...

[TheMalcolmConnection]

But I will say that since we didn't take him. I hope he's a bust.

[offiss]

Keep an eye on Vincent Jackson in San Diego he will be better than williams.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Vincent Jackson will be a playmaker. To me, it just might be history but a lot of times it seems like half the players taken in the top 10 are COMPLETE busts.

[RedskinsJunkie]

I really like the Troy Williamson pick as well. I was and am pretty impressed by what Minnesota has done this off season. (Especially D) They are going to be tough and if they had a half of a coach they would be LIGHTS OUT

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

That's been the point why bring in a back like Portis when he clearly doesn't fit the scheme.

Now controlling the clock with the run is not a scheme, how you control it with the run is, and what I mean by that is what kind of a running game do we use, if it's a power running game then why bring in Portis? If it's a finess running game then why not do it.

Our line wasen't as bad as it was made out to be, I prefer to listen to Portis who has some experience running in that offense when he say's the other team's know where we are running the ball, couple that with opposing defenses stating that they knew where the plays were going, that the play's we ran were very simplistic, and easy to diagnois, I say that's an indictment on gibbs not the line, granted that our line was not great but not nearly as bad as they looked. I don't care how good your line is if you can't throw it enough to keep a defense honest you wont be able to run the ball, and we didn't come close to keeping the defenses honest.

I believe you said we had no need for a center/guard in the draft, yet blame the line for our running problems last year, and after seeing what you percieve to be a shabby line you wouldn't want to take the steps neccassary to add depth so if we have an injury we aren't strapped with a line that can't block?


I think the perception by some is that Gibb's used his big back's primarly on short yardage play's, well not so, he used them as his primary back, and used the speed guy's ala J.Washington, K.Bryant, and so on, on passing downs.

As for Football being different back in Gibbs first tenure? Yes, and no, What daseal is saying is Gibbs isn't running the team like he did back in the day, that's where the problem lies, yes with free agency, salary cap, clock management, things are different, but so is Gibbs, there is also something different about Gibbs now that wasen't back in the 80's, he had Bobby Beathard to bring in the players for him to succeed, I can tell you this Beathard found Schroeder in the 3rd, and Rypien, and Humphries in the 6th rd. About the same area we should have found Campbell.

Beathard left the Skins because he was fed up fighting with gibbs on personell, and I will give the trade that did it, it was the Gerald riggs for our #1, in which Beathard was going to use to draft Icky Woods, he allowed Gibbs to have his way and then left, his exact words "well Joe got his RB".

Gibbs of the past is gone he now has to reprove himself again, as he would be the first to agree, and after our abismal offensive effort last season he has a lot to prove.

Okay, lets get a few things straight, Offiss. I think you're going on alot of assumptions of what I'm saying, instead of actually fact of what I am saying. First of all, I never suggested we didn't need to use the draft or free agency to get a linemen....especially center. Just because I didn't state we needed to use either avenue to upgrade our OL, doesn't mean I don't believe we needed it. Heck, if we used our top two picks for the OL, that would have been fine with me.

Secondly, I never suggested we ONLY used the big running backs for short yardage downs, but 9 times out of 10, the big backs were in the lineup for the short yardage plays. That does not mean I am suggesting that these backs were not primary backs. I'm not neccessarily disputing that Joe Washington was used on third downs....I'm not disputing that John Riggins was a primary back. I know this stuff Offiss, I WATCHED THE GAMES!

What I am saying is, by US drafting big guys in THIS DRAFT, it gives us a BIG GUY to pick up the SHORT YARDAGE that PORTIS didn't do so well on this past year. That is ALL I am really trying to say about the big backs Offiss...instead you're pointlessly arguing about how John Riggins was used...an arugment I didn't start.

As for Portis, I brought up him gaining 1300+ yards this season because you basically were saying he wasn't effective...only gaining one yard per carry. I'm trying to look at this from a logical stand point..and for the record, I haven't offered my opinion on Portis as a system back or not, but only pointing out the obviously logical fact. That fact is, for a running back to gain over a 1,000 yards rushing to be considered not so effective isn't logical. Portis would have more than likely had another 1500 yard season if not for his injury. I would say with numbers like that, he had a heck of a year for being a Denver system back, wouldn't you agree?

Now, I don't feel Portis is the best fit in Gibbs' system....but for a back not being the best fit, he didn't do so bad in the system. The numbers don't lie. I have stated in the past that if I could choose between Portis and a healthy Stephen Davis; I would pick Davis. The reason why is that I felt Davis was more of a "Gibbs" type of back than what Portis is. Now, I'm not getting into an argument of Davis nowadays, but merely giving an example of what type of back I believe works best in Gibbs system. That IS NOT to say, though, I think Portis won't be successful in Washington.

Finally, the argument about the offensive line. Our protection was no where near what Gibbs and Bugel wanted it to be. It WAS alot better than the previous year, but nothing like what I believe the expectations are according to the coaching staff. We had Jansen out for the entire season - our best offensive linemen. Samuels had an okay year but not a pro bowl year. As the season progressed, the protection got better, but it wasn't anywhere where it should have been. I do believe we needed to upgrade the center...and hopefully we did that. Seeing him play will tell the tale. We're getting Jansen back and if Samuels can have better than a so-so year, the offensive line will play better this year. So, to address the line in conjunction to the thoughts on the running game, the OL wasn't always opening up big holes. Sure, defenses not respecting our passing game and putting people up on the line played a part in our running game, but to say our offensive line had zero to do with it was pure bunk. Now, I am NOT putting all the blame on the offensive line....don't even argue that point.

BTW, speaking about the running game in the 1980's...and the early 90's, our running game did switch to the smaller backs being featured...such as Timmy Smith and Earnest Byner. Maybe that contributed to the fact that Riggs and Rogers were not the John Riggins of football. My simple point in stating this is, Gibbs was just as successful with having the smaller backs used as primary backs as he was with the big backs. A prime example is our Super Bowl season of '91.

[skinsguy]

I also forgot to clarify the argument about the tight ends. When you look at use of tight ends, you have to consider their function in more ways than just being a third or fourth receiver. In Gibbs' system, the tight ends are extremely important in maximum protection. However, to say Gibbs did not throw to his tight ends is not correct. However, I am not implying that the tight ends were used just like Crumpler in Atlanta is being used; but the fact remains that the QBs did throw the ball to the tight ends. However, when you have a very successful running game, and superstar receivers like we had with the posse, why should we have focused on the tight ends being receivers? We were still extremely successful with the system....we have three trophys to show for it and four Super Bowl appearances. That isn't too shabby of a resume.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

I think the perception by some is that Gibb's used his big back's primarly on short yardage play's, well not so, he used them as his primary back, and used the speed guy's ala J.Washington, K.Bryant, and so on, on passing downs.

Beathard left the Skins because he was fed up fighting with gibbs on personell, and I will give the trade that did it, it was the Gerald riggs for our #1, in which Beathard was going to use to draft Icky Woods, he allowed Gibbs to have his way and then left, his exact words "well Joe got his RB".

Are you sure about that Icky Woods thing? Woods' rookie year was in 1988 and we didn't trade for Riggs until the 1989 draft. And wasn't Riggs primarily the short-yardage back in 1991 while Byner and Ricky Ervins were the primary backs?

Totally agree with you on Vincent Jackson by the way. He's going to be a stud

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Are you sure about that Icky Woods thing? Woods' rookie year was in 1988 and we didn't trade for Riggs until the 1989 draft. And wasn't Riggs primarily the short-yardage back in 1991 while Byner and Ricky Ervins were the primary backs?

Totally agree with you on Vincent Jackson by the way. He's going to be a stud

Finally! Someone gets it! This is what I tried to clarify on the pervious page.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Are you sure about that Icky Woods thing? Woods' rookie year was in 1988 and we didn't trade for Riggs until the 1989 draft. And wasn't Riggs primarily the short-yardage back in 1991 while Byner and Ricky Ervins were the primary backs?

Totally agree with you on Vincent Jackson by the way. He's going to be a stud

Beathard was defiently going to draft Wood's, I may be off about how it came down but it had to do with something gibbs wanted either the previous year with our #1, it's been a while so I may have confused who it was for, but that's a fact as far as Beathard not being able to draft Woods because of Gibbs wanting someone else and Beathard being ticked that he couldn't draft him because of it, and I know that when he went out and obtained Rigg's and Byner those were his exact word's "well Joe got his RB's", and he then parted way's. I did think it was for Riggs but obviously the year doesn't match, and I couldn't find info on who we traded for and what the year before to refresh my memory, but after Beathard left here and there you started hearing some of the reason's why, back then you really didn't know there was a problem until it was over, and under the circumstances considering all the success they had it was very suprising to most of us fans when it went down, and thats what started to come out, obviously there was more to it than just 2 instances but from what I gathered at the time that's the straw that broke the camels back, probably what happened is he wanted Woods the year before and obviously it would have been a great pick at the time, but because of Gibbs he didn't, then the following year Beathard had to give up our first 1st pick for Rigg's, and sent M.Oliphant to cleveland for Byner and that was the last straw.

The problem was Gibbs wanted established talent and Beathard wanted to use the draft, but at that point Gibbs was swinging a bigger stick than Beathard with 2 SB victories under his belt, so Beathard conceded and left. Plus he really wanted to go to the chargers where he was from.

[Redskins8588]

I dont think I ever answerd the qustion to this thread as to what I would have done with the draft.

I think that I would have still taken Rogers at #9, and I would have liked to have gotten a second round pick to get V. Jackson. Offiss and I were pretty much V. Jackson supporters here, I think that he has great speed for his size and good hands to go with it. I think that V. Jackson would have done very well in our system.