Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

[Schneed10]

But that's not to say Campbell will be a career backup. There may come a day when we can't afford to keep Patrick. Or maybe Campbell will prove he deserves to start down the line. But for now, Ramsey is the guy, and Gibbs means it.

[illdefined]

I can maybe understand not wanting to put Ramsey on the line as Gibbs adjusted to the new NFL, but that didn't justify all the money Brunell got, or, way more importantly, all the chances Gibbs kept giving Brunell after it was plain to see he was costing us every game.

Ramsey isn't exactly a rookie with no starts, I think it was a general consensus that Ramsey could have been put in earlier in the season and won some more games. Gibbs bet the farm on Brunell and lost.

While Ramsey is finally getting his chance from the beginning, Gibbs already has made another big gesture with somebody to eventually replace him in this year's draft. I know it's been said ad nauseum, but most agree we had way more pressing (defensive) needs. The pattern of Gibb's QB decisions just can't inspire too much confidence in the boy, that's all i'm saying.

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by illdefined

I hope that take is right; Hasslebeck seemed like a solid backup though and not taking the chance to shore up a depeleted defense for a future backup QB doesn't seem very pragmatic. I'm sure Ramsey and maybe even coach Williams was a bit surprised.

I don't know that it's entirely to acquire a "solid backup". If Ramsey falters this season, there isn't a QB on the roster to run the team in 2006. Brunell will have taken his own life (maybe - it could happen), and bringing in a free agent to start will put us in the position of teaching on the fly - just like last year. This way, Coach Gibbs gets either (a) a credible backup relatively cheaply - bottom of the first round money isn't that much, or (b) a groomed "rookie" with a year of studying the playbook and practicing with the pros.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

I don't know that it's entirely to acquire a "solid backup". If Ramsey falters this season, there isn't a QB on the roster to run the team in 2006. Brunell will have taken his own life (maybe - it could happen), and bringing in a free agent to start will put us in the position of teaching on the fly - just like last year. This way, Coach Gibbs gets either (a) a credible backup relatively cheaply - bottom of the first round money isn't that much, or (b) a groomed "rookie" with a year of studying the playbook and practicing with the pros.

that makes sense, and sorry i missed the discussion when it happened, but what was wrong with Hasslebeck, who'd been here through all of it?

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by illdefined

that makes sense, and sorry i missed the discussion when it happened, but what was wrong with Hasslebeck, who'd been here through all of it?

Tim Hasselbeck is a hell of a nice guy, who is pretty bright. he also has a below average arm, both strength and accuracy-wise. During his brief period of starts here thanks to injuries, he completed 53.7% of his passes, and had a QB rating of 63.6. That's not something to build on. He's also 27 years old - that's by no means an old man, but it falls awkwardly between young gun and wily veteran.

[Paintrain]

I echo what most have said here in regards to Smoot, that he was good his whole career but Williams just raised his profile.. Also I think that he benefitted (at least in the media sense) from being the 2nd best CB available this offseason behind Samari Rolle. If we kept him then I think he would have been regarded, media wise, as part of a 'solid but unspectacular secondary.' Media types ALWAYS accentuate the negative, it's how they keep their jobs.. I am ok with Harris/Rogers/Wilds as long as Springs stays healthy and Taylor stays focused.

With Ramsey however I tend to agree with the dissentors.. While I don't think Gibbs hates Ramsey as has been insinuated, I don't think he beleives in him either. Two offseasons in a row he has sought to upgrade the position. If you are 100% behind your 26 yr old starter and believe your 34 yr old backup can still play effectively, you don't trade 3 picks for a rookie QB in the 1st round. From all indications it was a smart move since Campbell has impressed thusfar but it's still not the move of a coach who is confident at that position. For those who like to cite the Chargers Brees/Rivers situation, anyone who claims the Chargers are 'happy' to have 2 young talented QB under contract (who are probably taking up close to $10 million in cap space) and on the roster is misguided.. It's better to have a QB you are sure is the future and a solid veteran backup. I don't buy Gibbs assertion 'you get the best football players out there' regarding Campbell when there were other holes that could have been better served by that pick..

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

Tim Hasselbeck is a hell of a nice guy, who is pretty bright. he also has a below average arm, both strength and accuracy-wise. During his brief period of starts here thanks to injuries, he completed 53.7% of his passes, and had a QB rating of 63.6. That's not something to build on. He's also 27 years old - that's by no means an old man, but it falls awkwardly between young gun and wily veteran.

i see; thought he was younger. well, on the bright side, Brunell no longer has an excuse to STAY.

Coach Williams certainly has is work cut out for him this season, he already made miracles last year with little, now he has even less to work with. Wish we could have helped him out more in this year's draft (god knows it's the least he deserves) and i hope both our coaches are still HERE when Campbell finally has a chance to make a difference.

[Paintrain]

I've also noticed that in all of the preseason prognostications there is no mention of Barrow being healthy (according to doctors) and how there should be minimal if any dropoff at MLB if he is able to play.. I honestly think these things are typed in May and they just post them throughout the summer..

[Longtimefan]

Despite the fact Gibbs has named Ramsey the starter for the 05 season is "not" a true indication of the fact he has the utmost confidence in him. He was almost forced to remove Brunell from the starting lineup because the team was off to such a poor start. We must remember that Ramsey was here when Gibbs arrived, was not a QB of his choosing. If Brunell is not going to be here after the 05 season, and no one knows just how the future is going to pan out for Ramsey, within a two year period of time we could verey easily be down to Campbell which in all probability has figured into the thinking when we drafted Cambbell. We have no idea what or where Ramsey will be in the next two years, so it's not wise to assume he will be here regardless of what kind of season he has. To some of us dismay, it's difficult to get a true guage on the future of the QB situation until different senerioes play themselves out. However for the short term, and with what we have, the success of the team this year and beyond will boil down to the play of our QB's and the offensive line. I'm hoping that whoever is the QB we will have success, and win games. When we do that I think much of the skepticism surrounding the various elements of the team will subside.

[SmootSmack]

I really like Ramsey and think he can really shine in this league. And I know a lot of us complain about Gibbs not giving Ramsey a fair shake. But he does see Ramsey a lot more than we do, and he sees Campbell.

So maybe he is seeing something that we don't see. Maybe Campbell will ultimately prove to be the better choice longterm. Only time will tell.

By the way, my brother said he saw Campbell and Carlos Rogers the other day. I can't remember where. Says Campbell is a monster, and really ripped. He just towers over Rogers.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I really like Ramsey and think he can really shine in this league. And I know a lot of us complain about Gibbs not giving Ramsey a fair shake. But he does see Ramsey a lot more than we do, and he sees Campbell.

So maybe he is seeing something that we don't see. Maybe Campbell will ultimately prove to be the better choice longterm. Only time will tell.

yeah, but that's exactly how my unquestioning faith in The Gibbs got it's first-ever question: What Did He See In Brunell (before the season AND then during)?

and until the Skins put up more Ws, we can NOT expect or demand ANY positive forecasts or write up on the Redskins. not only do we have to accept our post Snyder rep but embrace it. and the team needs to use it. the Skins are the NFC east underdogs with absolutely everything to prove. (and to the biggest, most passionate fanbase in the league)

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Longtimefan

Despite the fact Gibbs has named Ramsey the starter for the 05 season is "not" a true indication of the fact he has the utmost confidence in him. He was almost forced to remove Brunell from the starting lineup because the team was off to such a poor start. We must remember that Ramsey was here when Gibbs arrived, was not a QB of his choosing. If Brunell is not going to be here after the 05 season, and no one knows just how the future is going to pan out for Ramsey, within a two year period of time we could verey easily be down to Campbell which in all probability has figured into the thinking when we drafted Cambbell. We have no idea what or where Ramsey will be in the next two years, so it's not wise to assume he will be here regardless of what kind of season he has. To some of us dismay, it's difficult to get a true guage on the future of the QB situation until different senerioes play themselves out. However for the short term, and with what we have, the success of the team this year and beyond will boil down to the play of our QB's and the offensive line. I'm hoping that whoever is the QB we will have success, and win games. When we do that I think much of the skepticism surrounding the various elements of the team will subside.

I agree with you on all points but your statement that( we have no idea what or where Ramsey will be in the next two years, so its not wise to assume he will be here regardless of what kind of season he has). If Ramsey has a good season he will be here for the next two seasons. Why would he not be here if he is playing good? I doubt Gibbs will get rid of Ramsey in the next two years and replace him with Campbell if hes playing good. That just would not make any sense at all, unless i misunderstood what you were saying.

[Schneed10]

Many posts since my last one.

You make a good point when you say that the amount we gave up to get Campbell is an indication that Ramsey's days are numbered. But I don't think that is necessarily a knock on Ramsey, I think it's more of a vote of confidence for Campbell.

Gibbs thought highly enough of the young man to give up several draft picks. But despite thinking that highly of him, he still names Ramsey as the starter. Gibbs may like Campbell's chances to lead the team in the long term a lot better than he likes Ramsey's, so in that respect you're right. But for this season, which is all I'm saying, this season Ramsey is the starter.

The argument against the Chargers doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Sure, their payroll has $10 million budgeted towards a couple QBs. Is that a misallocation of resources? Yeah, maybe. But they were friggin 12-4. And that's the bottom line.

I'll gladly pay 2 QBs a lot of money if it means we're back in contention.

Also, Gibbs may not share your view that the team had more pressing needs. Many argue that WR was a big need and DE was a big need, and we had all these needs. It seems to me that Gibbs didn't think so. Maybe he's wrong, who knows. It's certainly fine to question the logic. But if the team performs well this year despite these "holes" in the roster, people should be prepared to change their tune.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Many posts since my last one.

You make a good point when you say that the amount we gave up to get Campbell is an indication that Ramsey's days are numbered. But I don't think that is necessarily a knock on Ramsey, I think it's more of a vote of confidence for Campbell.

Gibbs thought highly enough of the young man to give up several draft picks. But despite thinking that highly of him, he still names Ramsey as the starter. Gibbs may like Campbell's chances to lead the team in the long term a lot better than he likes Ramsey's, so in that respect you're right. But for this season, which is all I'm saying, this season Ramsey is the starter.

The argument against the Chargers doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Sure, their payroll has $10 million budgeted towards a couple QBs. Is that a misallocation of resources? Yeah, maybe. But they were friggin 12-4. And that's the bottom line.

I'll gladly pay 2 QBs a lot of money if it means we're back in contention.

Also, Gibbs may not share your view that the team had more pressing needs. Many argue that WR was a big need and DE was a big need, and we had all these needs. It seems to me that Gibbs didn't think so. Maybe he's wrong, who knows. It's certainly fine to question the logic. But if the team performs well this year despite these "holes" in the roster, people should be prepared to change their tune.

Not to be contrary simply to be contrary, but.. The logic of 'he just thought highly enough of him' argument doesn't make sense in the NFL today.. If you are confident that the QB you have is your QB of the present and near future, why give up 3 picks to draft another one? With the cap and roster limits (which were not a consideration the first time around) you don't go and strengthen a position where you already have your guy.

The Chargers correleation was if they were convinced that Brees was the guy (like if Gibbs were convinced that Ramsey was the guy) they wouldn't have drafted Rivers (and the Redskins wouldn't have drafted Campbell). Yes their record was great last year, but now they have a large amount of their cap allocated to one position. I'm sure they are happy with their record but if they knew the light would come on for Brees they would have gone another direction with that pick rather than essentially waste it. Rivers barely played last year and will likely barely play this year so they have a player they are paying #5 overall QB money to who is stuck behind a 28 yr old Pro Bowler.. If the light comes on for Ramsey, they have spent 3 picks on a player who won't see the field until mid next season at the earliest. The bad thing about the pick is it only works out if Ramsey falters. You can't cut/trade a 27 yr old performing QB for a rookie just because you drafted his replacement.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Not to be contrary simply to be contrary, but.. The logic of 'he just thought highly enough of him' argument doesn't make sense in the NFL today.. If you are confident that the QB you have is your QB of the present and near future, why give up 3 picks to draft another one? With the cap and roster limits (which were not a consideration the first time around) you don't go and strengthen a position where you already have your guy.

The Chargers correleation was if they were convinced that Brees was the guy (like if Gibbs were convinced that Ramsey was the guy) they wouldn't have drafted Rivers (and the Redskins wouldn't have drafted Campbell). Yes their record was great last year, but now they have a large amount of their cap allocated to one position. I'm sure they are happy with their record but if they knew the light would come on for Brees they would have gone another direction with that pick rather than essentially waste it. Rivers barely played last year and will likely barely play this year so they have a player they are paying #5 overall QB money to who is stuck behind a 28 yr old Pro Bowler.. If the light comes on for Ramsey, they have spent 3 picks on a player who won't see the field until mid next season at the earliest. The bad thing about the pick is it only works out if Ramsey falters. You can't cut/trade a 27 yr old performing QB for a rookie just because you drafted his replacement.

On the Chargers, theirs was a very unique situation because they held the #1 overall pick. True, at that point Brees hadn't shown that he was ready to be considered the franchise QB, and hence the Chargers considered a QB with their first overall pick. They didn't have much faith in Brees, which is exactly why they were ready to hand Eli Manning a first overall pick's contract. That of course didn't work out because Eli didn't want to be a Charger, but if the Chargers had their druthers, Manning would be in San Diego, and the Chargers would have laid down a huge signing bonus.

We all love to point to the draft picks that Gibbs gave up to get Campbell, but we all seem to forget that since Campbell was taken late in the first round, he'll be making chump change. When Ramsey was taken with pick 32, that netted him a contract of less than $1.2 million per year. Figure some inflation on Campbell, and we're talking less than $2 million a year on our salary cap for the next 5 years or so. So yes, Gibbs gave up a lot in the way of draft picks, but I still say the investment was much less than what the Chargers wanted to invest in Manning, or what they ended up investing in Rivers for that matter.

The Chargers situation is much different from ours. We gave up a shot at some players next year by trading the 1st and 4th round picks, which is a lot, that's for sure. But it's not as big a deal as the Chargers' situation. They have two QBs who are going to be making a ton of money. Once we get Brunell off the books, we're going to have two who aren't making much at all. (Unless Ramsey explodes, he'll get a modest contract two years from now or he'll leave). That leaves us with more cap room for other things, which helps us deal with the loss of the draft picks.

I don't think you can point to the drafting of a 2nd QB and automatically say it is a misallocation of resources unless you consider the finances. When the salary is that low, there is no pressure to bring Campbell along that quickly. You can let Ramsey keep his starting job and let Campbell learn, because your QBs aren't monopolizing your cap space.