Right Tackle and Free Safety

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by DYoungJelly

Going from "nothing to do with the QB" to "he's not the only one to blame" is a change in opinion and a more accurate statement of what happened last year.

The line can get better. It is average to below average. It isn't terrible. I believe the biggest improvement the line has to make as a unit is power blocking on short yardage. We were pure crap this year picking up 1st downs on the ground. Hopefully as we get bigger, this will improve.

Almost every talking head who played for the skins, from Colt Brennan to Cooley, to Brian Mitchell preaches that sacks are 50/50 on the line and the QB. In fairness, Brunell is the outlier. It isn't QB or line, it is QB and line.

SM didn't think it was the unit in the most dire situation based on where he has spent money so far.

If the line is god awful, how do you explain Kirk Cousin's incredibly low sack rate compared to RG3 and Colt?

Because after Cousins started taking hits, he just threw it as quick as possible regardless of whether the receiver was open. Which is why he threw so many Int's. RG3 held the ball way to long and would bail out instead of climbing the pocket when he could. KC just threw it regardless of whether the receiver was open so he didnt keep taking hits. Just rewatch the NY Giants game, he got lit up in the first half. Second half he was doing everything he could to get the ball out of his hands fast and threw 4 ints.

Its not just the line, we didnt have good pass blocking from RB's or TE's either, plus the QB's clearly added to the mistake. It was an overall break down. But to use KC as the reason to say our Oline wasnt giving up sacks is a mistake. Throwing it to the defense isnt the answer.

Also, Colts sack rate wasnt that much lower than RG3. Based on what you posted earlier, RG3 had 33 sacks while throwing 214 passes. Colt had 17 sacks while throwing 128 passes. Which would equal out to 34 sacks in 256 passes thrown. Better but not exactly a huge difference.

[NYCskinfan82]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Because after Cousins started taking hits, he just threw it as quick as possible regardless of whether the receiver was open. Which is why he threw so many Int's. RG3 held the ball way to long and would bail out instead of climbing the pocket when he could. KC just threw it regardless of whether the receiver was open so he didnt keep taking hits. Just rewatch the NY Giants game, he got lit up in the first half. Second half he was doing everything he could to get the ball out of his hands fast and threw 4 ints.

Its not just the line, we didnt have good pass blocking from RB's or TE's either, plus the QB's clearly added to the mistake. It was an overall break down. But to use KC as the reason to say our Oline wasnt giving up sacks is a mistake. Throwing it to the defense isnt the answer.

Also, Colts sack rate wasnt that much lower than RG3. Based on what you posted earlier, RG3 had 33 sacks while throwing 214 passes. Colt had 17 sacks while throwing 128 passes. Which would equal out to 34 sacks in 256 passes thrown. Better but not exactly a huge difference.

Well put.

[JoeRedskin]

First, I fully acknowledge that, in pass protection, the line (and RB's & TE's) had real problems last year - particularly at the right tackle position. Further, I am still pulling for RGIII to get it together and have not given up hope.

With that said, RGIII has a very long ways to go as a pocket passer and unless he acknowledges it, he will simply not succeed in this league.

While the line would provide poor protection at times, there were many, many times RGIII failed to either climb the pocket, gave up to quickly, or simply was clearly taking bad drops from the start (5 or more when it should have been a 3, etc.). On top of that, RGIII's demonstrated an inability to make proper reads and the need for receivers to break clean before pulling the trigger (ex. the T. Bay game where Cooley said RGIII's play was so bad it was impossible to evaluate anyone else). Finally, he was simply not taking coaching (Keim cited an example where, in practice, Gruden specifically instructed RGIII that, on the particular play, his read was one of three options to the right and it was intended to be a quick read. At the snap, RGIII goes left and throws an pick. Keim followed it up by saying this was just one of the egregious examples of RGIII's inability to take coaching.)

Like I said, I am pulling for RGIII. All the evidence I have seen over the last couple years, however, points to a guy who isn't ready to succeed in any timing based offense or, for that matter, any offense that requires solid pocket skills. On top of that, his apparent need to do it "his way" is a road block to any improvement in the areas that would ultimately help him be a real success in this league.

Bottom line, short of stellar line play, given his current flaws, RGIII is likely to always struggle at the position and have a high sack rate.

Keim has cited that one of the attributes Mariotta is being heralded for is his coachability -- i.e. working hard to avoid the same mistake twice. RGIII, however, seems to have a bad case of the Patrick Ramsey's -- an otherwise smart guy who was just not able to avoid making the same mistakes over and over.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Because after Cousins started taking hits, he just threw it as quick as possible regardless of whether the receiver was open. Which is why he threw so many Int's. RG3 held the ball way to long and would bail out instead of climbing the pocket when he could. KC just threw it regardless of whether the receiver was open so he didnt keep taking hits. Just rewatch the NY Giants game, he got lit up in the first half. Second half he was doing everything he could to get the ball out of his hands fast and threw 4 ints.

Its not just the line, we didnt have good pass blocking from RB's or TE's either, plus the QB's clearly added to the mistake. It was an overall break down. But to use KC as the reason to say our Oline wasnt giving up sacks is a mistake. Throwing it to the defense isnt the answer.

Also, Colts sack rate wasnt that much lower than RG3. Based on what you posted earlier, RG3 had 33 sacks while throwing 214 passes. Colt had 17 sacks while throwing 128 passes. Which would equal out to 34 sacks in 256 passes thrown. Better but not exactly a huge difference.

I agree with your points, however I do think it's safe to say that through the overall body of work, KC gets the ball out faster than Griffin does. He's much more decisive when he has time to throw. Doesn't mean he's the better QB, both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I think with any QB, when they start getting knocked around and pressured, if effects performance. It's painfully obvious we need better pass protection.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

First, I fully acknowledge that, in pass protection, the line (and RB's & TE's) had real problems last year - particularly at the right tackle position. Further, I am still pulling for RGIII to get it together and have not given up hope.

With that said, RGIII has a very long ways to go as a pocket passer and unless he acknowledges it, he will simply not succeed in this league.

While the line would provide poor protection at times, there were many, many times RGIII failed to either climb the pocket, gave up to quickly, or simply was clearly taking bad drops from the start (5 or more when it should have been a 3, etc.). On top of that, RGIII's demonstrated an inability to make proper reads and the need for receivers to break clean before pulling the trigger (ex. the T. Bay game where Cooley said RGIII's play was so bad it was impossible to evaluate anyone else). Finally, he was simply not taking coaching (Keim cited an example where, in practice, Gruden specifically instructed RGIII that, on the particular play, his read was one of three options to the right and it was intended to be a quick read. At the snap, RGIII goes left and throws an pick. Keim followed it up by saying this was just one of the egregious examples of RGIII's inability to take coaching.)

Like I said, I am pulling for RGIII. All the evidence I have seen over the last couple years, however, points to a guy who isn't ready to succeed in any timing based offense or, for that matter, any offense that requires solid pocket skills. On top of that, his apparent need to do it "his way" is a road block to any improvement in the areas that would ultimately help him be a real success in this league.

Bottom line, short of stellar line play, given his current flaws, RGIII is likely to always struggle at the position and have a high sack rate.

Keim has cited that one of the attributes Mariotta is being heralded for is his coachability -- i.e. working hard to avoid the same mistake twice. RGIII, however, seems to have a bad case of the Patrick Ramsey's -- an otherwise smart guy who was just not able to avoid making the same mistakes over and over.

I'm pulling for whoever is the best guy for the job. So tired of watching below average QB play.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Because after Cousins started taking hits, he just threw it as quick as possible regardless of whether the receiver was open. Which is why he threw so many Int's. RG3 held the ball way to long and would bail out instead of climbing the pocket when he could. KC just threw it regardless of whether the receiver was open so he didnt keep taking hits. Just rewatch the NY Giants game, he got lit up in the first half. Second half he was doing everything he could to get the ball out of his hands fast and threw 4 ints.

Its not just the line, we didnt have good pass blocking from RB's or TE's either, plus the QB's clearly added to the mistake. It was an overall break down. But to use KC as the reason to say our Oline wasnt giving up sacks is a mistake. Throwing it to the defense isnt the answer.

Also, Colts sack rate wasnt that much lower than RG3. Based on what you posted earlier, RG3 had 33 sacks while throwing 214 passes. Colt had 17 sacks while throwing 128 passes. Which would equal out to 34 sacks in 256 passes thrown. Better but not exactly a huge difference.

RG3's sack rate was 15%. Kirk's was right at 4%. You're right McCoy's rate was very similar to RG3's sack rate. I wouldn't consider RG3 as having the same sack rate as a career back up a ringing endorsement.

The game situation and Kirk's inability to forget the last bad play had more to do with the interceptions than the offensive line's play.

They were playing from behind, which allows the defense to pass rush without defending the run. If our defense hadn't made Donnell the most prized TE in the league that game, a balanced attack would have changed the stats big time.

Two of his 4 interceptions were deep balls. He was going outside the system and trying to do to much to make a come back.

The line play wasn't good but it wasn't terrible either.

Kirk was sacked twice and had 4 QB hits that game:

New York Giants vs. Washington Redskins - Box Score - September 25, 2014 - ESPN

Our line did a lot better in that game than Tony Romo's did in our first game:

Washington Redskins vs. Dallas Cowboys - Box Score - October 27, 2014 - ESPN

I'm sure you will credit great Oline play for the numbers Kirk put up the week before against Philly since you're blaming them for the numbers Kirk put up against NY:

Washington Redskins vs. Philadelphia Eagles - Recap - September 21, 2014 - ESPN

I totally agree with you guys that our line needs to get bigger and better but everything wrong with our offense isn't the line.

We need a QB. Kirk is the only QB on our team with the potential for long term success in this league but has some real head issues to resolve before that happens.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Because after Cousins started taking hits, he just threw it as quick as possible regardless of whether the receiver was open. Which is why he threw so many Int's. RG3 held the ball way to long and would bail out instead of climbing the pocket when he could. KC just threw it regardless of whether the receiver was open so he didnt keep taking hits. Just rewatch the NY Giants game, he got lit up in the first half. Second half he was doing everything he could to get the ball out of his hands fast and threw 4 ints.

Its not just the line, we didnt have good pass blocking from RB's or TE's either, plus the QB's clearly added to the mistake. It was an overall break down. But to use KC as the reason to say our Oline wasnt giving up sacks is a mistake. Throwing it to the defense isnt the answer.

Also, Colts sack rate wasnt that much lower than RG3. Based on what you posted earlier, RG3 had 33 sacks while throwing 214 passes. Colt had 17 sacks while throwing 128 passes. Which would equal out to 34 sacks in 256 passes thrown. Better but not exactly a huge difference.

Sums it up pretty well. Getting the ball out quick is only a good thing if you're making good decisions while doing it.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by DYoungJelly

RG3's sack rate was 15%. Kirk's was right at 4%. You're right McCoy's rate was very similar to RG3's sack rate. I wouldn't consider RG3 as having the same sack rate as a career back up a ringing endorsement.

The game situation and Kirk's inability to forget the last bad play had more to do with the interceptions than the offensive line's play.

They were playing from behind, which allows the defense to pass rush without defending the run. If our defense hadn't made Donnell the most prized TE in the league that game, a balanced attack would have changed the stats big time.

Two of his 4 interceptions were deep balls. He was going outside the system and trying to do to much to make a come back.

The line play wasn't good but it wasn't terrible either.

Kirk was sacked twice and had 4 QB hits that game:

New York Giants vs. Washington Redskins - Box Score - September 25, 2014 - ESPN

Our line did a lot better in that game than Tony Romo's did in our first game:

Washington Redskins vs. Dallas Cowboys - Box Score - October 27, 2014 - ESPN

I'm sure you will credit great Oline play for the numbers Kirk put up the week before against Philly since you're blaming them for the numbers Kirk put up against NY:

Washington Redskins vs. Philadelphia Eagles - Recap - September 21, 2014 - ESPN

I totally agree with you guys that our line needs to get bigger and better but everything wrong with our offense isn't the line.

We need a QB. Kirk is the only QB on our team with the potential for long term success in this league but has some real head issues to resolve before that happens.

I have said plenty that I think the lack of a good defense has affected our QB's/Offense. Just dont use that for RG3, it wont fly on this board even though its acceptable for KC. Our defense puts us in positions to have to come from behind and that kills us. The OL has had some good games here and there, just like our defense has. But when you compare them across 16 games, no I dont call our OL or defense good. That Dallas game was also one that Dallas screwed up, since they were running it good on us but they tried to win it with Romo for some reason. They werent far behind at any point in the game, they just went away from the run for some reason.

But you cant say the OL didnt affect KC, even in that Giants game. Especially after one sack that he didnt see coming in the first half. He wasnt the same the rest of the game.

I have also never said the only problem with our offense is the line. But for some reason, calling out the OL equals a defense of RG3 to most. Im not sure why that is, since I say it affects them all. But thats the way most on this board think. To me, they are independent of each other.

If we go with RG3... Fix the OL.
If we go with KC... Fix the OL.
If we go with McCoy... Fix the OL.
If we draft Mariotta... Fix the OL.
If we trade for Rivers... Fix the OL.

It has been a problem and one or two games here or there does not change that. The OL is good at stretch runs, but that is about the only thing they are consistent at. Sometimes there is a pocket, sometimes none develops and the QB only has about 2 seconds to get rid of the ball (we had a fair few sacks happen in the 1.7 seconds time frame). QB's have trouble adjusting to that outside of the elites, and even sometimes they do as well. Especially if we want to get a young QB and develop him. Do I think Mariotta will develop well behind Polumbus (granted hes not on the roster and shouldnt be back) and Chester while having to score 30 just to get a win? No I dont.

[Hog1]

It's not like a well kept secret right?
Don't have a stellar QB? Get a Stellar O-line.......

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

I have also never said the only problem with our offense is the line. But for some reason, calling out the OL equals a defense of RG3 to most. Im not sure why that is, since I say it affects them all. But thats the way most on this board think. To me, they are independent of each other.

To be fair, however, this particular discussion started when someone argued that RGIII's problems were due to the line and that, with a decent line, he would be fine (that's an oversimplification) and used a clip from a Minnesota game. Discussion ensued. How much the line, how much RGIII?

Most reasonable people seem to agree that it is a good amount of both. The OLine gets pushed around a lot. RGIII takes bad drops and has little or no pocket presence. Neither is good but both, together, are double plus ungood.

[FRPLG]

It's really simple. Our line isn't great and none of our QBs are anywhere near good enough to make up for it even a little and may actually make it look worse. BUT...it is easier to address the line and then constrain the QB scheme-wise in a constructive way. You can't do it the other way around. Well maybe we did a little in 2012 when Griffin played well and made the line look good because we didn't actually make them do any real NFL-level stuff but that was fleeting obviously.

[Chico23231]

All this talk of the Oline being the reason rg3 can't read a defense is quite lame. The Oline isn't the reason why cousins didn't look off the safety or missed that lb playing underneath coverage. Sure they need to play better, but the blame for the qb play is very old and tired

[Bangee7]

Originally Posted by Skins4L

check out this play. watch how Everson Griffin and Anthony Barr pretend like our Oline is invisible. dude has to make a highlight play just to dump it off on a checkdown? right side is garbage. period. nothing to do with qb.

2014 Top Moments: Griffin III, Helu Escape Vikings

if I'm watching the same play, the RT did OK on that play...Helu was a swinging gate on the other hand. Glad he's gone- he could not block a lick.

RGIII also didn't seem to notice the blitz that was bound to come from the Left side.

to be fair, it looked like Chester (RG) gave up a little too soon and was actually chasing his man into the backfield....ugh!

[Michaelt31]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

All this talk of the Oline being the reason rg3 can't read a defense is quite lame. The Oline isn't the reason why cousins didn't look off the safety or missed that lb playing underneath coverage. Sure they need to play better, but the blame for the qb play is very old and tired

That might be true, but KC played four years in a pro-style offense and RG3 none in college. All this KC is better might be true with certain things, but he had a chance and didn't deliver!! Rg3 might not be the future qb we want, KC want be neither!!

[over the mountain]

since this has turned into a QB discussion ...

"He threw nine interceptions last season; Seven of them came in bad games against the Giants and Cardinals. Five of them came in the fourth quarter, including three during a winnable game at Arizona and one in Philly. But only three of the interceptions came with Washington trailing by fewer than nine points, so the legend of Cousins crumbling repeatedly in tight games is somewhat exaggerated."

Why isn’t Kirk Cousins getting a shot to start? - The Washington Post


interesting context and info as to when Cousins threw picks. seems like forces throws when we are down by double digits ....

i wonder if cousins now will be worried about his own stat line when the team is down double digits in the 2nd half vs trying to win.