Chargers and Norv

[BringBackJoeT]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I dealt with Norv Turner at least weekly behind the scenes for 2 and a half years. Decent guy, but I don't doubt for one minute that this team is winning despite him. Sure, some of it here might have been the players he had. He expected Gus Frerotte to be Troy Aikman, which he obviously wasn't. But Norv wouldn't budge. Did the same with Brad Johnson, who at least grasped things a lot better than Gus. Norv, similar to Spurrier, seemed to have no concept of what anyone beyond the QB was up to on the team. The whole locker room was filled with chaos and confusion. It was just ugly.

Now I understand he's not entirely to blame, but as the head coach he bears significant responsibility. I can't say I ever saw a time where he took charge and people said "that's our leader."
People speculate, and I would tend to agree, that Marvin Lewis was the true leader of the clubhouse while he was here with Spurrier. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar is happening in San Diego.

Norv's not a bad guy, but he shouldn't keep getting these great opportunities at the expense of others.

Agreed. Look, everybody--EVERYBODY--agrees that Norv is one of the nicest, most genuine guys you'll ever meet. In fact, in the midst of the Chargers early season troubles, when many stories were being written about Norv, one former Raider was quoted as saying that Norv had been almost too nice for the job of head coach.

But that doesn't mean that we can't lay blame at his feet for his stint in Washington. The Redskins failed to make the playoffs during Norv's first five seasons as coach. How many head coaches in the NFL in the past 25 years have actually maintained their jobs after failing to reach the playoffs in their first five years as coach? (I think I checked this out once, and one of the most recent examples I could find was Tom Landry with the Cowboys in the early 60's, when the NFL was very different, and the Cowboys were a brand new franchise--there may have been one example more recent than that). Now, some have said, "Yeah, but he didn't have good players." But Norv wasn't a guy capable of raising anybody's game. Recall that it was Sonny J. himself that repeatedly referred to Redskin Park during the Norv years as "Club Med." That was the problem--he simply failed time and again to instill any sense of urgency in the locker room.

Some have asked when Danny came aboard. For the record, he bought the team before the '99 season, which was Norv's sixth season. It was in Norv's sixth season that the Redskins finally made the playoffs, and no one has ever doubted that Danny told Norv at the outset of the season what he had to look forward to if he didn't produce, ultimately meaning that it was Danny that finally brought the sense of urgency that Norv simply was incapable of producing. The following season, the Redskins started off 6-2, but then lost three of four games before the game against the Giants at FedEx. During that game (which at the time the Giants needed to win as much as the Redskins--the Giants went into the game 8-4), Pam Oliver was doing the sideline reporting and declared that the benches were completely different--the Giants were pumped, but the Redskins sideline seemed dead. It was that utter lack of life on the sidelines during a home game against a division rival in the 12th game of the season with the playoffs still a very real possibility that was cited as a primary factor behind Danny's decision THAT NIGHT to finally dump Norv. Danny didn't put too much pressure on Norv. Norv simply couldn't pressure on this own team. Some may say, "But they're professionals! They shouldn't need a coach to get them pumped up!" Yeah, there is some truth to that, but all of us learned from the first day of kindergarten, and have learned since, that the designated leader of whatever environment we are in sets the tone, whether it's a classroom, workplace, or locker room, and that the people inside those rooms respond to that tone. All of Norv's players liked him, but he couldn't fire them up.

For me, the most telling moment of his stint as Redskins coach was Marvcus Patton screaming at Gus for his third interception of the opening game against the Giants of the '98 season--I always thought Patton had had enough of Frerotte not getting an earful for his mistakes from the HC, and finally decided to take matters into his own hands.

I don't hate Norv, but I don't root for him, and, because of how intense my frustration still is over his years in Washington, I'm not happy for him that the Chargers have won. As some have said, he was lucky to get a job that a LOT of other people were more deserving of.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by BringBackJoeT

Agreed. Look, everybody--EVERYBODY--agrees that Norv is one of the nicest, most genuine guys you'll ever meet. In fact, in the midst of the Chargers early season troubles, when many stories were being written about Norv, one former Raider was quoted as saying that Norv had been almost too nice for the job of head coach.

But that doesn't mean that we can't lay blame at his feet for his stint in Washington. The Redskins failed to make the playoffs during Norv's first five seasons as coach. How many head coaches in the NFL in the past 25 years have actually maintained their jobs after failing to reach the playoffs in their first five years as coach? (I think I checked this out once, and one of the most recent examples I could find was Tom Landry with the Cowboys in the early 60's, when the NFL was very different, and the Cowboys were a brand new franchise--there may have been one example more recent than that). Now, some have said, "Yeah, but he didn't have good players." But Norv wasn't a guy capable of raising anybody's game. Recall that it was Sonny J. himself that repeatedly referred to Redskin Park during the Norv years as "Club Med." That was the problem--he simply failed time and again to instill any sense of urgency in the locker room.

Some have asked when Danny came aboard. For the record, he bought the team before the '99 season, which was Norv's sixth season. It was in Norv's sixth season that the Redskins finally made the playoffs, and no one has ever doubted that Danny told Norv at the outset of the season what he had to look forward to if he didn't produce, ultimately meaning that it was Danny that finally brought the sense of urgency that Norv simply was incapable of producing. The following season, the Redskins started off 6-2, but then lost three of four games before the game against the Giants at FedEx. During that game (which at the time the Giants needed to win as much as the Redskins--the Giants went into the game 8-4), Pam Oliver was doing the sideline reporting and declared that the benches were completely different--the Giants were pumped, but the Redskins sideline seemed dead. It was that utter lack of life on the sidelines during a home game against a division rival in the 12th game of the season with the playoffs still a very real possibility that was cited as a primary factor behind Danny's decision THAT NIGHT to finally dump Norv. Danny didn't put too much pressure on Norv. Norv simply couldn't pressure on this own team. Some may say, "But they're professionals! They shouldn't need a coach to get them pumped up!" Yeah, there is some truth to that, but all of us learned from the first day of kindergarten, and have learned since, that the designated leader of whatever environment we are in sets the tone, whether it's a classroom, workplace, or locker room, and that the people inside those rooms respond to that tone. All of Norv's players liked him, but he couldn't fire them up.

For me, the most telling moment of his stint as Redskins coach was Marvcus Patton screaming at Gus for his third interception of the opening game against the Giants of the '98 season--I always thought Patton had had enough of Frerotte not getting an earful for his mistakes from the HC, and finally decided to take matters into his own hands.

I don't hate Norv, but I don't root for him, and, because of how intense my frustration still is over his years in Washington, I'm not happy for him that the Chargers have won. As some have said, he was lucky to get a job that a LOT of other people were more deserving of.

You have your facts off a little. By the time Snyder had purchased the team it was too late to fire Norv. Snyder has said so himself that he would have fired Norv if he would have had time to replace him. It was Cook who keep Norv around for so long. How can you blame Norv if Cook allowed him to keep coaching the Skins?

[BringBackJoeT]

Originally Posted by firstdown

You have your facts off a little. By the time Snyder had purchased the team it was too late to fire Norv. Snyder has said so himself that he would have fired Norv if he would have had time to replace him. It was Cook who keep Norv around for so long. How can you blame Norv if Cook allowed him to keep coaching the Skins?

Uh, I think you're the one with your facts wrong. As I said, Snyder was hired before the '99 season, when the Redskins finally made the playoffs. Your statement that "by the time Synder had purchased the team it was too late to fire Norv" is not responsive to anything that I said. Second, which "Cooke" are you referring to when you say that "it was Cook who kept Norv around for so long"? As I'm sure you recall, Jack Kent Cooke died in April, 1997, and his son was temporarily in control of the team for two years before the executors of the estate sold the team to Snyder. During the two years that Cooke's son ran the team, he avoided making big changes to the organization (like, for example, firing the head coach), because he, quite reasonably, decided that he would hold off on major decisions pending the estate's decision on who should get the team.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by BringBackJoeT

Uh, I think you're the one with your facts wrong. As I said, Snyder was hired before the '99 season, when the Redskins finally made the playoffs. Your statement that "by the time Synder had purchased the team it was too late to fire Norv" is not responsive to anything that I said. Second, which "Cooke" are you referring to when you say that "it was Cook who kept Norv around for so long"? As I'm sure you recall, Jack Kent Cooke died in April, 1997, and his son was temporarily in control of the team for two years before the executors of the estate sold the team to Snyder. During the two years that Cooke's son ran the team, he avoided making big changes to the organization (like, for example, firing the head coach), because he, quite reasonably, decided that he would hold off on major decisions pending the estate's decision on who should get the team.

Your right.

[JLee9718]

When Norv first became the head coach of the Redskins, his first action was to dismantle the core of the team by releasing its most solid players, the ones that other coaches would have kept to build around. I think Ray brown was one of those players, Mark Schlereth was another. He went to Denver and made all-pro a couple of years. Kurt Gouveia was a solid middle linebacker for us, but Norv cut him and Kurt went to San Diego and continued his solid play for them. I don't remember who released Rich Gannon, but he played briefly for the Redskins, then was cut and made all-pro with the Raiders. That was around Norv's time, but it might have been just before he arrived. Norv chose to go with Heath Shuler and that was a disaster. Norv isn't a good judge of talent, even when he has good players. He set the Redskins back about 5 years when he became head coach here. His salvation in San Diego, as everyone knows, is that he didn't have to build the team. We never should have hired an assistant coach who came from the Cowboys.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by JLee9718

When Norv first became the head coach of the Redskins, his first action was to dismantle the core of the team by releasing its most solid players, the ones that other coaches would have kept to build around. I think Ray brown was one of those players, Mark Schlereth was another. He went to Denver and made all-pro a couple of years. Kurt Gouveia was a solid middle linebacker for us, but Norv cut him and Kurt went to San Diego and continued his solid play for them. I don't remember who released Rich Gannon, but he played briefly for the Redskins, then was cut and made all-pro with the Raiders. That was around Norv's time, but it might have been just before he arrived. Norv chose to go with Heath Shuler and that was a disaster. Norv isn't a good judge of talent, even when he has good players. He set the Redskins back about 5 years when he became head coach here. His salvation in San Diego, as everyone knows, is that he didn't have to build the team. We never should have hired an assistant coach who came from the Cowboys.

Maybe you're on to something here. Jerry Jones didn't mind seeing Norv Turner go to the Redskins to dismantle them. Overall, I do think it's bad karma to hire anyone from the Dallas Cowboys.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by JLee9718

When Norv first became the head coach of the Redskins, his first action was to dismantle the core of the team by releasing its most solid players, the ones that other coaches would have kept to build around. I think Ray brown was one of those players, Mark Schlereth was another. He went to Denver and made all-pro a couple of years. Kurt Gouveia was a solid middle linebacker for us, but Norv cut him and Kurt went to San Diego and continued his solid play for them. I don't remember who released Rich Gannon, but he played briefly for the Redskins, then was cut and made all-pro with the Raiders. That was around Norv's time, but it might have been just before he arrived. Norv chose to go with Heath Shuler and that was a disaster. Norv isn't a good judge of talent, even when he has good players. He set the Redskins back about 5 years when he became head coach here. His salvation in San Diego, as everyone knows, is that he didn't have to build the team. We never should have hired an assistant coach who came from the Cowboys.

Mark Schlereth left of his own volition through free agency as did Ray Brown. Schlereth never had any devotion to the Redskins. As soon as he saw a better deal, he was gone. And besides, Charley Casserly was in charge of personell in those days. Yeah that's right we had a G.M.

[BleedBurgundy]

Are you referring to Bobby Beathard? Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the Chargers still have Marty's personality. That's still his team out there. Norv is the head coach, but that team carries Marty's imprint.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Are you referring to Bobby Beathard? Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the Chargers still have Marty's personality. That's still his team out there. Norv is the head coach, but that team carries Marty's imprint.

No, it was after Bobby Beathard. This guy came from Buffalo who also brought Smith from Buffalo.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Are you referring to Bobby Beathard? Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the Chargers still have Marty's personality. That's still his team out there. Norv is the head coach, but that team carries Marty's imprint.

Sorry guys, you do not win two playoff games and especially the reigning SB champs that looked great all season if you're riding someone's coat tails. Maybe I could agree after beating the titans, but not the Colts. Give Norv some credit.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Sorry guys, you do not win two playoff games and especially the reigning SB champs that looked great all season if you're riding someone's coat tails. Maybe I could agree after beating the titans, but not the Colts. Give Norv some credit.

To echo a post I made earlier, if you use that logic, how do you explain Callahan's SB trip with the Raiders?

[WillH]

I was not a fan of Norv while he was here, but I have to give him credit. It just makes you wonder . . . if Norv can win elsewhere then maybe the problem is here. Obviously our players during his stint were not nearly as good as the ones we have now, but still it is unbelievably frustrating. When will we ever be a dominant team again?

[jsarno]

Just an FYI, Norv this season has 2 playoff wins (and hopefully not done), Schott had 2 playoff wins in a season only 1 time in his entire career, and that was in 92 with KC.

Funny how people think so negative of Norv, but so highly of Schott when schott pissed off the vets like Darryl Green and Bruce Smith on a regular basis. There was practically a mutany cause schott was such a jerk. The entire team wanted him gone, yet some here think highly of him and not Norv??????

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Just an FYI, Norv this season has 2 playoff wins (and hopefully not done), Schott had 2 playoff wins in a season only 1 time in his entire career, and that was in 92 with KC.

Funny how people think so negative of Norv, but so highly of Schott when schott pissed off the vets like Darryl Green and Bruce Smith on a regular basis. There was practically a mutany cause schott was such a jerk. The entire team wanted him gone, yet some here think highly of him and not Norv??????

Those players were pissed because he wanted everyone to bust their ass all the time. He came in and didn't assume anything. He expected vets and rooks alike to "earn it." I think that is worthy of respect.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Just an FYI, Norv this season has 2 playoff wins (and hopefully not done), Schott had 2 playoff wins in a season only 1 time in his entire career, and that was in 92 with KC.

Funny how people think so negative of Norv, but so highly of Schott when schott pissed off the vets like Darryl Green and Bruce Smith on a regular basis. There was practically a mutany cause schott was such a jerk. The entire team wanted him gone, yet some here think highly of him and not Norv??????

Marty Schottenheimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're forgetting what he did in Cleveland.