Mcnabb to Washington?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Pocket$ $traight

So you are using statistics to argue that Sanchez is better than Tom Brady... How is that hurting my argument?

If an aging middle of the pack QB is worth 11 wins, sign me up.

You're not declaring your Eagles fandom here...right?

I'm specifically avoiding statistics that would suggest Brady might be better than Sanchez, much like you're avoiding the statistics that suggest that McNabb and Campbell are of similar (but not equal) value.

Suggesting that they are in the same tier is not necessarily asking one to accept them as equivalents, contrary to where I might have been leading people with my wordiness. It is specifically designed to reject the idea that one guy might have some winning quality that can't possibly be explained by having an excellent, unfailingly competent defense or a receiver or two that isn't allergic to the end zone.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I'm siding with Pocket$ on this one. Stats aside, McNabb has done more with similar talent and, in some cases, less talent than Jason Campbell has over the course of their respective careers. There's no disputing that.

The naysayers can point to McNabb's age and his inability to win the Super Bowl as reasons why the Skins shouldn't do it. As far as McNabb's age goes, top tier quarterbacks are playing well into their thirties nowadays and being very productive while they're at it. In terms of does this make the Skins a Super Bowl contender, well probably not. But we know for sure they aren't under Campbell either. My biggest issue with Campbell is that his stats are deceiving. Good enough to keep him around, but not bad enough to flat out dump him.

If --and it's a big f*cken if-- the front office pulls the trigger on this deal, there's likely a two to three year window and after that they cut their losses. But for what's on it's worth, I'm on the record saying that JC is outta here come by draft day if not before.

Let me go on the record and speculate that this deal will never happen. I also will freely and gladly admit that when Shanahan sneezes, the tissue has more football knowlege than I do.

Here is what matters. Shanahan has been studying our team with a fine tooth comb and it is pretty apparent that he wants nothing to do with JC long term. At the end of the day when the JC argument comes up, isn't that all you need to know?

[GTripp0012]

In the rawest of win shares analysis, the quarterback gets 100% credit for every play he is involved in. McNabb throws a screen pass to Westbrook that goes for 65 yds and a TD = McNabb throws 65 yd TD bomb. Campbell throws football off of Fred Davis' facemask and is intercepted by Sheldon Brown = Campbell throws interception.

By this definition, league MVP Peyton Manning was worth +7.44 wins. That literally means that the Colts win percentage increased by 744% due to all the plays that involved Peyton Manning last year.

McNabb was worth +1.67 wins. Campbell just +0.39. There's a difference (his name is DeSean Jackson), but, even in the rawest sense of winning and losing, they were in the same tier in 2009.

In 2008, Campbell was worth +1.24 wins and McNabb was worth +0.47. Again, same tier. One isn't decisively more winning than the other.

Peyton Manning, Kurt Warner, and Drew Brees are in a different stratosphere in terms of producing wins and losses. McNabb is just a guy, clearly.

Advanced NFL Stats -- McNabb, Career

[dan_snyder69]

Exactly. I keep thinking we should just draft O-line and Campbell will continue to improve, but then I think about the fact that Shanahan does not like Campbell and change my mind. Basically O-line would help us improve our record the most and the fastest, but I don't think we'll be having a top five pick again for a long long time (hopefully). That's why a franchise QB continues to tempt me and the front office.

[tryfuhl]

For every Desean Jackson bomb there was a missed wide open receiver. Put the blame where you want because it fell into both JC either missing seeing the receiver, putting the ball somewhere it couldn't be caught, or JC going into panic mode because he was about to become roadkill... or another category, the ball was pretty scripted to go to a particular receiver.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I'm siding with Pocket$ on this one. Stats aside, McNabb has done more with similar talent and, in some cases, less talent than Jason Campbell has over the course of their respective careers. There's no disputing that.

The naysayers can point to McNabb's age and his inability to win the Super Bowl as reasons why the Skins shouldn't do it. As far as McNabb's age goes, top tier quarterbacks are playing well into their thirties nowadays and being very productive while they're at it. In terms of does this make the Skins a Super Bowl contender, well probably not. But we know for sure they aren't under Campbell either. My biggest issue with Campbell is that his stats are deceiving. Good enough to keep him around, but not bad enough to flat out dump him.

If --and it's a big f*cken if-- the front office pulls the trigger on this deal, there's likely a two to three year window and after that they cut their losses. But for what's on it's worth, I'm on the record saying that JC is outta here come by draft day if not before.

Well, the three years that McNabb has been above average as a passer, has he not had a pro bowl receiver in each year? Terrell Owens, then Donte Stallworth, then DeSean Jackson. Well, I looked it up and Stallworth didn't make it to pro bowl in 2006. But who has Campbell thrown to that's gone to a pro bowl? Just Cooley (the Westbrook equivalent in our offense), and he's going to help you move the chains, and he'll score from inside the red zone, but he can't generate the big plays that make McNabb look good like those guys.

I'd agree with you that McNabb's had a perfectly successful career outside of those years, however, it's been decisively middle tier. In 2008, he broke form and won two playoff games, ultimately helping Brent Celek emerge as an above average NFL TE, and I'm not a playoff-loss-detractor by any means because losing in the playoffs would mean being in the playoffs. And I freely admit Campbell's resume would look better with some playoff losses on in.

This isn't a resume comparison though. It's a stupid trade rumor that's going to blow over in a few days, but it's stupid because collecting mid-tier quarterbacks does not improve a crappy offense, ergo, collecting Donovan McNabb equivalents does not improve the Redskins offense, no matter how much more he deserves from Philly fans who stupidly booed him on draft day and never really gave it a rest.

[skins89moss]

I would give the Eagles a 7th rd pick for McNabb and see If I could get a 3rd pick for Jason. If I could get a 3rd pick for JC than I would pick Bradford if he was there with the 4th pick. If Bradford is gone than try to trade down and get another pick ( 2nd or 3rd) take Clausen with the 1st rd pick. 2nd pick or picks draft OL, 3rd pick LB and rest of draft best players available. McNabb has only 1 year left on his contract so if we take him its for just 1 season unless we think he can play a few more years until our rookie QB is ready. I say just keep JC and see how he plays this season unless you can get a 2nd or 3rd pick for JC.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, the three years that McNabb has been above average as a passer, has he not had a pro bowl receiver in each year? Terrell Owens, then Donte Stallworth, then DeSean Jackson. Well, I looked it up and Stallworth didn't make it to pro bowl in 2006. But who has Campbell thrown to that's gone to a pro bowl? Just Cooley (the Westbrook equivalent in our offense), and he's going to help you move the chains, and he'll score from inside the red zone, but he can't generate the big plays that make McNabb look good like those guys.

I'd agree with you that McNabb's had a perfectly successful career outside of those years, however, it's been decisively middle tier. In 2008, he broke form and won two playoff games, ultimately helping Brent Celek emerge as an above average NFL TE, and I'm not a playoff-loss-detractor by any means because losing in the playoffs would mean being in the playoffs. And I freely admit Campbell's resume would look better with some playoff losses on in.

This isn't a resume comparison though. It's a stupid trade rumor that's going to blow over in a few days, but it's stupid because collecting mid-tier quarterbacks does not improve a crappy offense, ergo, collecting Donovan McNabb equivalents does not improve the Redskins offense, no matter how much more he deserves from Philly fans who stupidly booed him on draft day and never really gave it a rest.

The fact that it's a rumor at all and that we're now working on the sixth page of this thread says a lot if you ask me. There's just not a lot of confidence in Jason Campbell at Redskins Park.

In terms of the T.O., Stallworth, et. al. comparison, well, Jason Campbell has played more games with Clinton Portis, Chris Cooley, and Santana Moss than McNabb has with all of the above. Both T.O. and Stallworth have only played one full season as Eagles, and DeSean Jackson just completed his second. So while they are Pro Bowl material, the fact still remains that McNabb was constantly adjusting to the talent around him, played with an oft injured Westbrook, and a make-shift offensive line, yet still produced multiple playoff appearances.

But I think we're losing sight of the core argument here which, in my opinion, isn't a statistical one, as you've noted. I have no idea what the possible motives are behind floating something like this, but if this is a serious rumor the Redskins are looking at making a playoff run by bringing McNabb to D.C. There's no other way to look at it. And thus far, with as many excuses we can provide, Jason Campbell has yet to make a playoff appearance.

At the end of the day Jason Campbell doesn't provide a compelling reason, statistically or otherwise, as to why the Redskins should not get rid of him in favor of a quarterback (Donovan McNabb) who's arguably in the final phase of his career.

[budw38]

If 'Skins Can't Get Bradford, They'd Like McNabb - NFL - Yahoo! Sports Looks like the same old / same old between now and the draft.

[53Fan]

All this talk of McNabb and T.O. possibly becoming Redskins makes me :vomit:.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by 53Fan

All this talk of McNabb and T.O. possibly becoming Redskins makes me :vomit:.

No kidding , lets say no to iggles and cowturds ever wearing the B&G !!!

[MTK]

I would LOVE McNabb on this team. He could easily play another 4-5 seasons and still be pretty damn good. You've got to be high to not like this potential move. Doubt it will happen, but I would gladly give up a 2nd rounder for him.

Okung with #4, McNabb for our 2nd rounder = no brainer.

[44ever]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I'm siding with Pocket$ on this one. Stats aside, McNabb has done more with similar talent and, in some cases, less talent than Jason Campbell has over the course of their respective careers. There's no disputing that.

The naysayers can point to McNabb's age and his inability to win the Super Bowl as reasons why the Skins shouldn't do it. As far as McNabb's age goes, top tier quarterbacks are playing well into their thirties nowadays and being very productive while they're at it. In terms of does this make the Skins a Super Bowl contender, well probably not. But we know for sure they aren't under Campbell either. My biggest issue with Campbell is that his stats are deceiving. Good enough to keep him around, but not bad enough to flat out dump him.

If --and it's a big f*cken if-- the front office pulls the trigger on this deal, there's likely a two to three year window and after that they cut their losses. But for what's on it's worth, I'm on the record saying that JC is outta here come by draft day if not before.

I could not agree more.

Also as far as some guys comparing JC and Mcnabbs % stats. You have to look at the type of pass plays and the rythm. JC holds the ball to long, he make SHORT little dump passes, while Mcnabb drops back and lets it fly. Usually past the marker. He is able to get into a fast rythm and stay ahead of the defense. JC is very predictable in his play IMO.

I would much rather have a QB whose stats reflect plays that actually include 1st downs than a QB who make a bunch of short go nowhere passes that only look OK on % stats.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I would LOVE McNabb on this team. He could easily play another 4-5 seasons and still be pretty damn good. You've got to be high to not like this potential move. Doubt it will happen, but I would gladly give up a 2nd rounder for him.

Okung with #4, McNabb for our 2nd rounder = no brainer.

I'll take that to mean you'd have to not have a brain to make that deal. We're not the Vikings where all you need is a QB better than Jackson or Rosenfels to be a Super Bowl team. A 33 year old QB who has had a pretty good defense his entire career and a HC who makes the o-line a priority and a pretty good back in Westbrook should have had a pretty good career. Hell, they even made A.J. Feeley look good enough to get a big contract. He can keep throwing the ball in the dirt in Philly. No thank you.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I would LOVE McNabb on this team. He could easily play another 4-5 seasons and still be pretty damn good. You've got to be high to not like this potential move. Doubt it will happen, but I would gladly give up a 2nd rounder for him.

Okung with #4, McNabb for our 2nd rounder = no brainer.

I don't get high so ..... I must like the move . Whoever leads this team , I just hope they lead us to many wins , and a V. Lombardi Trophy or two .