8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues

[SmootSmack]

I'm not sure it can be proven Smith's strategy all along was to use litigation as a tool

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm not sure it can be proven Smith's strategy all along was to use litigation as a tool

Maybe, but all I know is that everytime I've seen the NFL make a serious offer DeSmith has left and ran directly to the media. He's like a woman. "I'm mad at you but I'm not going to tell you what I did, I will tell Sarah though and then she'll tell you."

De Smith should be going after rapist, pedophiles, and murderers. Not rich NFL fat cats.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

Maybe, but all I know is that everytime I've seen the NFL make a serious offer DeSmith has left and ran directly to the media. He's like a woman. "I'm mad at you but I'm not going to tell you what I did, I will tell Sarah though and then she'll tell you."

De Smith should be going after rapist, pedophiles, and murderers. Not rich NFL fat cats.

Let me help you out....

In Drew Brees statement he added....
[QUOTE] You’re just kind of sitting there waiting for judges to make their decision.”[/QUOTE]

There is no need to wait for a judge to make a decision if your actively in negotiations. If your not counter offering and waiting for a judges decision then clearly you want litigation to resolve the issues.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm not sure it can be proven Smith's strategy all along was to use litigation as a tool

Maybe, maybe not. That's what the NFL alleged out of post-mediation frustration anyway.

I do think if he was going to use decertification/litigation as leverage to get a quick deal, it was quickly botched if not mishandled from the start. Pulling the trigger in the midst of real progress didn't make a lot of sense.

Of course, being couped up in a room with people who you disagree with for two straight weeks...I can't think of anything in the world less enjoyable than that, but I don't know if real human feelings of frustration on both sides justify the childish actions of both sides (far less on De Smith than Jeff Pash, but I digress), and the ultimate decision by the NFLPA to go to litigation.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm not sure it can be proven Smith's strategy all along was to use litigation as a tool

I'm not sure there's much evidence to prove otherwise.

[SmootSmack]

How do you know they have been serious offers?

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How do you know they have been serious offers?

AP: Union rejected NFL's offer to show 5 years of profitability data - USATODAY.com

NFLPA Rejects Health Care Proposal Made by League | Football Today

Union rejects NFL labor proposal, then decertifies

"The union left a very good deal on the table," the NFL said in a statement. "It included an offer to narrow the player compensation gap that existed in the negotiations by splitting the difference; guarantee reallocation of savings from first-round rookies to veterans and retirees without negatively affecting compensation for rounds 2-7; ensure no compensation reduction for veterans; implement new year-round health and safety rules; retain the current 16-4 season format for at least two years with any subsequent changes subject to the approval of the league and union; and establish a new legacy fund for retired players ($82 million contributed by the owners over the next two years).

"The union was offered financial disclosure of audited league and club profitability information that is not even shared with the NFL clubs.

"The expanded health and safety rules would include a reduction in offseason programs of five weeks (from 14 to nine) and of OTAs (Organized Team Activities) from 14 to 10; significant reductions in the amount of contact in practices; and other changes."

NFL Makes Another Offer to the Players During Mediation on Monday - Cincy Jungle
mawae - "we are not anywhere closer to a deal now than we were in march"

Now the NFL has extended another offer, we obviously don't know the details yet but rather then say "hey lets stay a couple more days and hammer this out" they say "ehhh lets just talk at the next court ordered mediation on June 7th." IE "Let's see if we can get more leverage in court."

[SBXVII]

Drew Brees feels helpless waiting for judges’ decisions | ProFootballTalk

Can someone please explain why it seems that the players don't want to get a deal done? Why it seems they want this to go to court?

It's retoricle.

But although the owners gave a crappy deal the first time, they offered a second deal with out any input or ideas from the players/union. Negotiations take two parties. If only one party is communicating then it's not a negotiation. The second deal might be just as crappy as the first to the players, but an offer is a starting point. make a counter offer and see what happens. Then as negotiations go they should be bantering back and forth.

But.... the players/union.... don't want to banter, they are waiting for court. and the owners are the bad people. Hmmm.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm not sure it can be proven Smith's strategy all along was to use litigation as a tool

I will admit I tend to hear his words and think he is BSing, but he was on Sirius tonight(no really I heard him) and he said that they had been planning this for two years, now he is smart enough to phrase it however it needs to be phrased for legal purposes, but I think its obvious that A) the owners were going to lockout the players and B) the players were going to litigate. The players did not elect him based on his past mediation results.

[Dirtbag59]

Frivolous law suits FTW!

•January 2011: The NFLPA files a collusion case, citing that just one of 216 restricted free agents (RFAs) in 2010 was signed to an offer sheet. In 2009, four of 55 RFAs signed offer sheets. The case was filed after the sides extended a December deadline for filing.

[SmootSmack]

It's not like Smith and Goodell haven't been talking. They spent quite a few hours together today. And maybe instead of serious I should have said good offers.

I understand that the owners concern is more about the long term fate of the NFL than perhaps the players, but from my vantage point I still have a tough time siding with the owners. Regardless of my opinion of how some reps on the player side are handling things.

I'm confident (famous last words?) a deal will be worked out by the time it truly needs to.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

It's not like Smith and Goodell haven't been talking. They spent quite a few hours together today. And maybe instead of serious I should have said good offers.

I understand that the owners concern is more about the long term fate of the NFL than perhaps the players, but from my vantage point I still have a tough time siding with the owners. Regardless of my opinion of how some reps on the player side are handling things.

I'm confident (famous last words?) a deal will be worked out by the time it truly needs to.

I'm curious about why you'd side with the players honestly. I think you'd agree both sides are being greedy (which is perfectly acceptable in this case to me.) Given only that I'd be hard pressed to take any side at all. But add in that the players have consistently positioned themselves to pursue litigation and have now pursued said litigation by pretty dubious means I can't see how anyone can side with them. The balance of good faith spent lies firmly with the owners in my opinion and that is the only thing that tilts me towards the owners.

Edit: I think it is telling that we have a group of 32 business owners making BILLIONS of dollars a year crying poor and slowly but surely public opinion seems to be shifting firmly to their side. If there was ever a less sympathetic entity than the NFL owners crying poor I cannot think of it. Yet the players are consistently positioning themselves on the wrong side of "right".

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I'm curious about why you'd side with the players honestly. I think you'd agree both sides are being greedy (which is perfectly acceptable in this case to me.) Given only that I'd be hard pressed to take any side at all. But add in that the players have consistently positioned themselves to pursue litigation and have now pursued said litigation by pretty dubious means I can't see how anyone can side with them. The balance of good faith spent lies firmly with the owners in my opinion and that is the only thing that tilts me towards the owners.

Edit: I think it is telling that we have a group of 32 business owners making BILLIONS of dollars a year crying poor and slowly but surely public opinion seems to be shifting firmly to their side. If there was ever a less sympathetic entity than the NFL owners crying poor I cannot think of it. Yet the players are consistently positioning themselves on the wrong side of "right".

I wrote a whole post about it, don't feel like rehashing it. But in summary, I don't believe the state of the league is as poor as the owners claim it is, and the NFLPA made several concessions which were rejected by the NFL before March

NFLPA Made Proposals To NFL On How To Split Revenues - SportsBusiness Daily | SportsBusiness Journal

and we disagree on "dubious means" and the players side was prepared to negotiate multiple times back in the spring, but the owners either wouldn't show up for meetings, would show up but sit in a separate room and not meet face to face, or would show up and leave after a couple of hours.

And from my own discussions with the league, I just don't buy that they're in the dire position they claim to be. And I know how they can bully, totally different circumstances I know.

Yes, both sides are to blame. But I think the owners are being made to look too much like the good guys. Which, I understand, they usually are because people generally have a hard time siding with "millionaires playing a kid's game"

I also don't think I'm as emotionally charged up about this as others appear to be. And heck, it would probably affect me more than most others here. But the only reason I want the issue resolved is for my own selfish reasons as a fan. But realistically, I know that what matters is getting to a long-term agreement that will benefit the players and keep the league moving forward for decades to come, not a quick fix band-aid solution to appease fans.

I'm not so aggravated about the NFLPA preparing for litigation. Both the NFL and the NFLPA have been preparing themselves for worst-case scenarios for a couple of years. That's par for the course.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I wrote a whole post about it, don't feel like rehashing it. But in summary, I don't believe the state of the league is as poor as the owners claim it is, and the NFLPA made several concessions which were rejected by the NFL before March

NFLPA Made Proposals To NFL On How To Split Revenues - SportsBusiness Daily | SportsBusiness Journal

and we disagree on "dubious means" and the players side was prepared to negotiate multiple times back in the spring, but the owners either wouldn't show up for meetings, would show up but sit in a separate room and not meet face to face, or would show up and leave after a couple of hours.

And from my own discussions with the league, I just don't buy that they're in the dire position they claim to be. And I know how they can bully, totally different circumstances I know.

Yes, both sides are to blame. But I think the owners are being made to look too much like the good guys. Which, I understand, they usually are because people generally have a hard time siding with "millionaires playing a kid's game"

I also don't think I'm as emotionally charged up about this as others appear to be. And heck, it would probably affect me more than most others here. But the only reason I want the issue resolved is for my own selfish reasons as a fan. But realistically, I know that what matters is getting to a long-term agreement that will benefit the players and keep the league moving forward for decades to come, not a quick fix band-aid solution to appease fans.

I'm not so aggravated about the NFLPA preparing for litigation. Both the NFL and the NFLPA have been preparing themselves for worst-case scenarios for a couple of years. That's par for the course.

Excellent post.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by saden1

Excellent post.

Check's in the mail


Thanks