Grade Rocky McIntosh

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

so if teams like NE, Philly, Denver and Pittsburgh wich also use the same type of drafting li those 3 I previous mention aren't Championship caliber teams and models of succes tell me wich teams are? please let me know

Well, you didn't say Pittsburgh before, and I didn't argue against NE.

In any event, there isn't only one way to win a championship. Some teams have done it with amazing offense, some with great defense. Some with great drafting, some with key free agent acquisitions. Above all, however, I think the most important aspect is great coaching. You can have the best draft picks in the world, if your coaches suck, they aren't going to develop and your team is never going to be championship caliber. It's the coaching at NE and Pitt that made those teams great. I don't believe for one second that the same coaching staff couldn't have had the same success with key free agents.

[D'BOYZ]

I didn't say pitt because I tought 3 teams where enough but they also move up in the draft the same way Denver NE and the Eagles do they use the same type of strategy they don't give away future pics.

So you agree that NE and Pitts have great programs because they have won recent SB even though it took 10 years for pitt to reach the superbowl again, but you don't agree the Eagles and Denver have great programs championship caliber teams because the eagles didn't won the superbowl they played last year and lost 3 consecutive championship games.

And because denver hasn't win/gone to a superbowl since Elway that was 7 years ago even tought they have been consistent for the past 7 years and haven't had a bad season in all this time??

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

Moving up on the draft giving up future draft pics isn't innovating it has been done for ages and well history speeks for itself just tell me from the past 6 draft tell me all your first day pics how many are still on the team how many are probowlers or have lived to the spot they where drafted. How many are or will be busts you'll see a high percentage of players that didn't turn out to be what you plan that's why having more pics gives you a better chance 2 succed ( also selecting good players but thats another topic).

I agree Joe isn't afraid of innovating and yo usee it with the size and type of receivers his bringing this year but what his doing i nthe draft isn't innovating and has written dissaster all over the place we can talk about it in 4 years when gibbs is no longer in the team.

Gibbs is defining his own style of personnel decisions. Because of his style, nfl experts cannot evaluate the redskins draft on its own anymore, they must evaluate the entire offseason as a whole without separating any part of it (draft, free agency, trades, cuts, salary cap based decisions, coaching staff additions/changes). All of these areas of personnel decision-making affects each other as a whole. He is an innovator in these decisions, this approach, and (don't forget) the role and responsibilities he has set for himself as head coach and team president.

I don't want to talk about how he is doing when he is gone, that doesn't make any sense to me; let's discuss his ability and performance now. How he has improved the team and created stability with an openness to positive change. I will not forget the past decade or so without gibbs, and to me this is the best position the redskins have been in, in years. And the organization is still moving upward. To me, there is nothing to support that the draft for the redskins has disaster "written all over" it; and it seems to be just wishful thinking (and hating). Redskins last year: 10-6, playoff birth, won 6 games in a row (including playoff win)... and we have upgraded the team (especially in positions of need). I don't think that's a recipe for disaster.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

I didn't say pitt because I tought 3 teams where enough but they also move up in the draft the same way Denver NE and the Eagles do they use the same type of strategy they don't give away future pics.

So you agree that NE and Pitts have great programs because they have won recent SB even though it took 10 years for pitt to reach the superbowl again, but you don't agree the Eagles and Denver have great programs championship caliber teams because the eagles didn't won the superbowl they played last year and lost 3 consecutive championship games.

And because denver hasn't win/gone to a superbowl since Elway that was 7 years ago even tought they have been consistent for the past 7 years and haven't had a bad season in all this time??

You said "championship caliber", not me. Explain to me how Denver is a championship caliber team. We're talking about current teams here, not what they did 10 years ago with completely different players and in many cases different coaching staffs. How is Denver "championship caliber"? Because they can get into the playoffs? Because they don't have bad years? Ok, so apparently they are awarding championships simply based on making the playoffs and consistency now? I wasn't aware of that.

As for the Eagles, the fact that they haven't won a super bowl is inexcusable. You're talking about a team that built itself up from the depths of the NFC, only to fall short year after year after year because they didn't want to spend the money to get themselves over the hump. And you want to model that franchise why? Because their system has yielded ONE NFC Championship in 25 years. Because their unwillingness to go after that one extra playmaker has arguably cost them 4 decent shots at a ring? How again are they "championship caliber"?

Look, I'm not going to argue semantics with you. You've (I think) explained why you believe these teams are championship caliber and why they support your stance that teams who trade future picks can't possibly ever win a championship. Being how the Skins are really the first team in recent memory to employ this strategy on a consistent basis, I think it's a little premature to say that their strategy hasn't worked.........especially since the team has made leaps and bounds since Gibbs has come back.

I will leave you with this, however. This offseason the Skins have added (through draft picks or otherwise) two legit #2 WRs who have already had success in the NFL, a pass rushing DE that will be a starter, a solid veteran starting TE, a solid veteran starting safety, a rookie LB that will probably be a starter, a backup QB with experience in a new explosive offense that has proven successful in the NFL, and an offensive coordinator thought by many to be one of the best in the NFL who could have been a head coach for other teams. All of that added to a team that went into the second round of the playoffs last year. What have Denver and Philly done to get better? Do the math and tell me the Skins don't appear to be in a better position at a championship run than those two "championship caliber" teams. Maybe their rookies are going to be great, maybe they'll be busts. At least we pretty much know what we got.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Gibbs is defining his own style of personnel decisions. Because of his style, nfl experts cannot evaluate the redskins draft on its own anymore, they must evaluate the entire offseason as a whole without separating any part of it (draft, free agency, trades, cuts, salary cap based decisions, coaching staff additions/changes). All of these areas of personnel decision-making affects each other as a whole. He is an innovator in these decisions, this approach, and (don't forget) the role and responsibilities he has set for himself as head coach and team president.

I don't want to talk about how he is doing when he is gone, that doesn't make any sense to me; let's discuss his ability and performance now. How he has improved the team and created stability with an openness to positive change. I will not forget the past decade or so without gibbs, and to me this is the best position the redskins have been in, in years. And the organization is still moving upward. To me, there is nothing to support that the draft for the redskins has disaster "written all over" it; and it seems to be just wishful thinking (and hating). Redskins last year: 10-6, playoff birth, won 6 games in a row (including playoff win)... and we have upgraded the team (especially in positions of need). I don't think that's a recipe for disaster.

In a nutshell DBOYS, WP has pretty much nailed it! I would add that you can take all the stats you wish, and you can apply that to the rank and fine with relative success, because most teams pretty much do the same thing as all the other teams lacking original any thought. That is not who you are talking about here. You can speculate as to the draft being a total disaster or whatever nonsense was being touted. I personally have to go with the creds..........who's got em'??????????? You..............Pine riders like like idiot Sean Salisbury.......or 3-time Super Bowl winning coach???? Easy choice.
Additionally, one of the X-players I do have respect for, as he has seen success, like Ron Jaworski, stated on interview when asked about things, draft "the Skins have had a fantastic off season". "The NFC East is scared to death with what they are doing in DC". You might be thinking.............the Boy's aint' afraid. They should be after the strummin' they had last season with Joe's team. Finally, If you need an avalanche of meaningless stats compiled by 20k a year drones, to give you a comfort zone, so be it! I'll go with results delivered! Joe goes his way and delivers! History always repeats itself!!!!!!!

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by Hog1

In a nutshell DBOYS, WP has pretty much nailed it! I would add that you can take all the stats you wish, and you can apply that to the rank and fine with relative success, because most teams pretty much do the same thing as all the other teams lacking original any thought. That is not who you are talking about here. You can speculate as to the draft being a total disaster or whatever nonsense was being touted. I personally have to go with the creds..........who's got em'??????????? You..............Pine riders like like idiot Sean Salisbury.......or 3-time Super Bowl winning coach???? Easy choice.
Additionally, one of the X-players I do have respect for, as he has seen success, like Ron Jaworski, stated on interview when asked about things, draft "the Skins have had a fantastic off season". "The NFC East is scared to death with what they are doing in DC". You might be thinking.............the Boy's aint' afraid. They should be after the strummin' they had last season with Joe's team. Finally, If you need an avalanche of meaningless stats compiled by 20k a year drones, to give you a comfort zone, so be it! I'll go with results delivered! Joe goes his way and delivers! History always repeats itself!!!!!!!

As Keanu Reeves once said...."whoa"

[D'BOYZ]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Gibbs is defining his own style of personnel decisions. Because of his style, nfl experts cannot evaluate the redskins draft on its own anymore, they must evaluate the entire offseason as a whole without separating any part of it (draft, free agency, trades, cuts, salary cap based decisions, coaching staff additions/changes). All of these areas of personnel decision-making affects each other as a whole. He is an innovator in these decisions, this approach, and (don't forget) the role and responsibilities he has set for himself as head coach and team president.

Look first I don't disagree with you on what gibbs has brought to your team he has made great personel desicion has brought via FA excellent players that fit his style and has made your team competitive and hungry again.

Also your team has brought a new way of cap manegemnt to he NFL that has let them bring the player they want each year withou mayor consecuences that also is true.

but in thsi case you have to saparete what he has been doing in FA and the draft because they haven't merge yet if let's say gibbs had traded this year second round pick to the Jets for moss instead of coles then yes there would be a relation. but no the only way to compare and evaluate his draft moves is based only on the draft and hsi draft pics because he has only traded draft pics he hasn't merge the 2 sides of the bussnises get FA/ trades/ draft.

offcourse your FA pics affect what would you do i nthe draft as it does with every other team like Archuleta took a SS need aways from the draft but it doesn't determine the moves you make during the draft.

Like the 1 you did and the reason that I call these type of moves (giving away future high picks) risky or a disaster waiting to happen is because of history look 2 years ago is that easy Bufallo traded with us their low 2nd round a 5th and last year first for our 22 in the first round. How did it tur out? well got JJ, Spears and Ryan (an eventually Bledose because he was released because of JP losman) and Buffalo only got Losman 2 years later JJ , Spears and Bledsoe are starters in our team and Losman is a backup and has been almost been shown the door with a lot of speculation from the Bills that want to trade him.

[D'BOYZ]

Guys your're really getting out off the contect here there's a difference between offseason moves and draft specially if you don't make a move during the draft than involves a player like denver and GB did.

Gibbs have made great offseason addition and has make your team better I've said that numeros times in other post you DON'T have a problem with what your team has done in the offseason they get the players they want that fit your system, and yes your team is 1 of the toughest in the division if not the toughest..... but I'm not talking about your offseason moves I'm talking about your draft strategy as I'm not talking about Philly offseason moves or denvers or NE for that matter I agree the reason Philly dind't won a SB during that span is because they let go of key personal player and didn't reach for that player taht might get them there.

But you cant dismiss the fact that they have great draft strategies because they remain competitive each year Phi, Devnver, NE, Pitts they usually have great DRAFTS and that's the model I'm talking and having great draft it's what keeps you competitive in the long run.

Now the difference between a Championship team and a Championship caliber team is that the championship team is the team that won it there only can be 1 and a Champsionship caliber team is a tea mthat has a chance to reach and win the championship.... Like the Colts or for you the Colts haven't been a championship caliber team the past years either?.

[724Skinsfan]

D'BOYZ, some of us remember back in Gibbs' first tenure from 1981 to 1993. He had four first round draft picks. Thirteen years, four picks in the first round. His playoff record during that time was 15 - 5 (I think). Gibbs builds his teams primarily through FA not the draft.

The discussion about Philly, NE and Denver building solid teams through the draft is fine if that's all you're interested in. I'm interested in watching the Redskins play longer than 30 other teams in the NFL. As is evident by his playoff record, Gibbs builds powerhouse teams that play deep into the playoffs.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

Look first I don't disagree with you on what gibbs has brought to your team he has made great personel desicion has brought via FA excellent players that fit his style and has made your team competitive and hungry again.

Also your team has brought a new way of cap manegemnt to he NFL that has let them bring the player they want each year withou mayor consecuences that also is true.

but in thsi case you have to saparete what he has been doing in FA and the draft because they haven't merge yet if let's say gibbs had traded this year second round pick to the Jets for moss instead of coles then yes there would be a relation. but no the only way to compare and evaluate his draft moves is based only on the draft and hsi draft pics because he has only traded draft pics he hasn't merge the 2 sides of the bussnises get FA/ trades/ draft.

offcourse your FA pics affect what would you do i nthe draft as it does with every other team like Archuleta took a SS need aways from the draft but it doesn't determine the moves you make during the draft.

Like the 1 you did and the reason that I call these type of moves (giving away future high picks) risky or a disaster waiting to happen is because of history look 2 years ago is that easy Bufallo traded with us their low 2nd round a 5th and last year first for our 22 in the first round. How did it tur out? well got JJ, Spears and Ryan (an eventually Bledose because he was released because of JP losman) and Buffalo only got Losman 2 years later JJ , Spears and Bledsoe are starters in our team and Losman is a backup and has been almost been shown the door with a lot of speculation from the Bills that want to trade him.

I think that's where gibbs's approach to the offseason and personnel differs from traditional thinking. I think a lot of personnel evaluators have a tunnel-visioned approach to the draft and free agency (and other personnel-based areas), but it seems that gibbs looks at it from an overall team standpoint. How all of it affects each other. I can't get a hold of your sentence/statement of how fa affects the draft, but doesn't determine the moves you make during the draft. What do you mean by "affects" and "doesn't determine" ? Isn't this a little contradictory ?

I still don't understand how this draft will become a disaster for the redskins. How ? I don't see how it would be the possible end of the redskins as we know it (like a hurricane katrina, that's what I see a disaster as). Of course the draft is a risk, that's why gibbs prefers getting players he is sold on in fa and moving up in the draft to get a guy that they have a good feeling for. In this way, it is less of a risk (of wasting your investment). But to me, this is in no way a risk that would bring disaster to the redskins. A risk that would bring possible disaster to a team would be to sign a player named Terrell Owens. Now that has disaster written all over it.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

D'BOYZ:

I just don't think you can consider one (draft strategy) without the other (free agency strategy). First of all, a number of our offseason acquisitions were acquired by trading our future draft picks, so in those instances the two are directly related.

Second, the moves that the skins make in free agency allows them the luxury of not being dependant on the draft. For the Skins, spending 2 or 3 picks to move up and get the one player they want makes sense because they fill all of their other needs in free agency. The teams that do nothing in free agency are dependant on the draft to fill the holes in their roster. So while it may be a bad idea for Philly to trade away a bunch of picks to move up and get one or two guys, that doesn't mean it's a bad idea for the Skins to do it. The Eagles choose to use the draft to fill holes, the Skins choose free agency and trades. As such, stocking up on draft picks just isn't a necessity for the Skins. Conversely, the Eagles choose to do nothing during the off season leading up to the draft. They, therefore, don't have the luxury of spending multiple picks to make sure they get the one guy they want, because doing so leaves them with holes all over their roster.

The point is, what works for one team (and what doesn't work for one team) does not necessarily translate over to every other team in the NFL. By not considering the Skins' other offseason moves, you are refusing to recognize that there are multiple ways to build a great team.....and that not every team needs to value their draft picks the same way. Future draft picks don't matter as much to the Skins because of their approach at free agency and trading. Therefore, criticizing them for simply trading away future draft picks isn't taking all factors into account. You may want to isolate the issue, but that's not a good way of going about criticizing a team.

[gibbsisgod]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

D'BOYZ, some of us remember back in Gibbs' first tenure from 1981 to 1993. He had four first round draft picks. Thirteen years, four picks in the first round. His playoff record during that time was 15 - 5 (I think). Gibbs builds his teams primarily through FA not the draft.

The discussion about Philly, NE and Denver building solid teams through the draft is fine if that's all you're interested in. I'm interested in watching the Redskins play longer than 30 other teams in the NFL. As is evident by his playoff record, Gibbs builds powerhouse teams that play deep into the playoffs.

i agree, and i might add that in fa you pretty much know what you are getting when you pick up a player, in the draft almost every player is a crap shoot. when you go get vet player from another team he already has gotten his feet wet in the nfl and knows how to conduct himself in a professional manner.this is not always true but i feel a little more comfortable with a vet as opposed to a class of rookies who are still learning how to play and may be a little immature.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by That Guy

question, before today, would you rather have jimmy williams or mcintosh?

we don't have a need at OT or WR, even though those players are great too (jackson/justice), but if you'd have passed on williams for mcintosh last week, everyone would say you're nuts. (just move him to safety and turn archuleta into a linebacker :P)

100% in favor of McIntosh over williams. Jimmy Williams is an idiot, loud mouth in the mold of Pacman Jones. We did well to avoid that jackass in last year's draft and I believe we will all see that avoiding williams was a good decision.

[BleedBurgundy]

I may be a dick but "substract" is the funniest spelling I've ever seen...

[warriorzpath]

D'BOYZ, just my opinion - but I think you're trying to separate the draft from all the other redskins personnel moves in order to make your (weak, in my opinion) argument appear stronger than it really is.