Civil Discussion About Religion

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Those alternatives are scary, but they're the truth. Religion is just a crutch humans use to go about their daily lives in false comfort.

Maybe so, but what is the harm in that?
Do you tell your kids that life sucks? Or do you tell them they are special and they can acheive anything they set their mind to, and guard them from violent images on TV etc?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The limits of the human mind, that's the answer. Why is it that everything had to be created by someone or something? Is there a law that says all matter had to come from somewhere? Why did it have to be created? Why couldn't it just exist?

The concept that everything was somehow created comes from the book of Genesis. Deep down, people believe somehow the Earth, world, universe, whatever, was created. Then they try to apply that belief to the Big Bang and everything else, asking "well if the universe came from a Big Bang, then where did all the matter come in the first place?"

The true question: was matter created by someone/something? Or does it just exist?

That's a very interesting question. I look at patterns and find my own conclusions...this is why I am an outstanding roulette player...the whole world has a way of evening itself out, you just need to find the patterns. You came from you parents, and their parents, and their parents before them. Everything has a beginning...think about that...everything you know in this world had a beginning, so why would something like the pre earth rocks not have a beginning?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

That's a very interesting question. I look at patterns and find my own conclusions...this is why I am an outstanding roulette player...the whole world has a way of evening itself out, you just need to find the patterns. You came from you parents, and their parents, and their parents before them. Everything has a beginning...think about that...everything you know in this world had a beginning, so why would something like the pre earth rocks not have a beginning?

OK not to get off topic, but do you honestly believe someone can be a good or bad roullette player? I don't know how many statistics classes you've taken over your lifetime, but basically, if you flip a fair and balanced coin, what are the chances it will land on heads? 50% right? Everyone knows that one. OK, so let's say the coin just landed on heads. Flip it again. What are the chances it will land on heads this time? 50% right? Again, an easy one. Now, imagine it has landed on heads 5 times in a row. Now flip it again. What are the chances it lands on heads this time?

50%.

The point is the odds don't change based on whatever patterns you're observing. Same goes for roullette, except instead of the coin resulting in two different outcomes, the ball can land on 38 different outcomes. So what are the chances that it will land on 00? 1/38.

Now imagine it has landed on 00 three times in a row. Now bet again. What are the chances it will land on 00 this time? 1/38.

There are no such things as patterns in roullette. The results are completely random. That's why in Vegas they say "if you think you have a roullette system, you've lost already."

Any success you've had in the past is purely the result of blind luck. You just happened to hit on the odds. If you're so good at it, and can predict the patterns, then why aren't you in Vegas now making a living off your prowess?

And that's the human condition in a nutshell. The need to search for patterns or meaning in completely random, unrelated, and meaningless events.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Maybe so, but what is the harm in that?
Do you tell your kids that life sucks? Or do you tell them they are special and they can acheive anything they set their mind to, and guard them from violent images on TV etc?

Well first off, we're not discussion what we tell our kids, we're discussing what adults believe. But no, there is no harm in having faith in something if it makes you feel better (provided you're not organizing against other faiths).

I'm not arguing whether religion makes you feel better. It certainly does. I'm just arguing what is most likely the truth: there is no God. People just believe in him to feel better about their mortality, and all else that they cannot explain.

I do the same thing as GManc. When my grandmom died I tried to think of her as living on in heaven. Or at least living on in my heart and in my memories. Did I believe it was the truth? Hell no. But I told myself that, and it got me through a rough time.

And if religion can do that for you, even if it's bunk, then it's a well-guided thing.

Like I said, I don't think Jesus was the son of God, or even that God exists. But nevertheless, the stories and lessons in the Bible are a great way to live your life. Whether you believe or not, that's not the point. It's a great example, fact or fiction.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The only reason the theories can't be proven was because we weren't around to record history over the course of billions of years. I'd love for you to go into details, because all of the arguments against the theory of evolution are scientifically flimsy at best.

the reason they cannot be proven is becaue they are just theoies. why is it people need scientific proof to know if something exists ? i believe some poeple who are non believers use science as a crutch. they are fearfull of what happens after death and they say to themselves "well i can't see god and there's not enough scientific evidence to prove he is real, so i'll just continue to not believe".

can you see the wind ? no, but you can see and feel the effects of the wind. what is your reasoning for believing there is a thing called wind? is it because some scientists created a way to measure the speed of it.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

the reason they cannot be proven is becaue they are just theoies. why is it people need scientific proof to know if something exists ? i believe some poeple who are non believers use science as a crutch. they are fearfull of what happens after death and they say to themselves "well i can't see god and there's not enough scientific evidence to prove he is real, so i'll just continue to not believe".

can you see the wind ? no, but you can see and feel the effects of the wind. what is your reasoning for believing there is a thing called wind? is it because some scientists created a way to measure the speed of it.

I can conduct observable scientific studies on wind, i can feel it as my hair hair reacts to it. I know better than to go outside when wind speed is 150 mph because the likelihood of getting hurt is very high. That's the difference. God requires only faith and by definition faith is:

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

I am not scared of death. In fact, I look forward to it, in a way, because I am SO curious -- and completely fed up with the world.

I once read that humans are best at destruction. That seems pretty accurate to me. With that in mind, I don't see any positive outcome to the human race, and civilization at large.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I am not scared of death. In fact, I look forward to it, in a way, because I am SO curious -- and completely fed up with the world.

I once read that humans are best at destruction. That seems pretty accurate to me. With that in mind, I don't see any positive outcome to the human race, and civilization at large.

I recommend the movie "The Fountain" to you...

It's directed by the same guy that did "Requium for a dream", so it's kinda trippy, but interesting.

It talks alot about how humans try and treat death like it's a disease. Finding a cure for this and that, but in the end we can't escape our fate.

It's not a bad movie, but some people don't have the patience for it. I think about half the theatre walked out cause they didn't know what was going on when I saw it.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I recommend the movie "The Fountain" to you...

It's directed by the same guy that did "Requium for a dream", so it's kinda trippy, but interesting.

It talks alot about how humans try and treat death like it's a disease. Finding a cure for this and that, but in the end we can't escape our fate.

It's not a bad movie, but some people don't have the patience for it. I think about half the theatre walked out cause they didn't know what was going on when I saw it.

I'm pretty bad when it comes to movies. There are SO many classics that I haven't seen, and many more that I have and can't remember. It kinda sucks, but I get a kick out of it. My cousin, and old roommate, is a pretty big movie buff and he would always refer to movies in conversation and I could never relate. He would get so frustrated.

Anyways, everyone always tells me about a movie I should see and I basically say, "Oh, I might have seen it already -- I don't know -- but I'll check it out." However, I never actually DO watch the movie because I really only watch movies based on circumstance -- and not desire. I have a DVD from a co-worker which I've had for about 8 months. He wanted me to watch it, but I could never commit. Then he told me to just keep it.

I don't know what it is. There are many movies that I LOVE, but I just don't focus on watching movies much. In a way I'm somewhat disappointed in myself, because movies are a HUGE part of modern history and culture.

Sorry for the long and stupid post. I gotta good buzz right now. Why else would I post at 3 am?

[jamf]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

did you laugh because you thought it was funny or because you think i'm a hypocrit(sp).

just because you're a christian does'nt mean you have to stop joking around and having fun.

It was freakin hilarious. It was no way intended as a dig on you.

[mooby]

I'm a nonbeliever. My mother is a Scientologist and my dad is a Christian, although he doesn't go to church. I was raised around Scientology in my younger years, but I grew out of it, because it wasn't helping me make my life any better. I'm still not sure of whether or not God exists, simply because if he does exist, why does he just sit around and watch all the time instead of helping people. If people think, hey i just saw a sign from God that showed me to believe in him, how do they just know it wasn't some random occurence? Religion is too deep for me, and I do think organized religion is just a money-making industry. If a person chooses to believe in God, that's their choice, if believing in God makes them a better person, so be it. But it's not my choice.

[The Huddle]

Originally Posted by saden1

I can conduct observable scientific studies on wind, i can feel it as my hair hair reacts to it. I know better than to go outside when wind speed is 150 mph because the likelihood of getting hurt is very high. That's the difference. God requires only faith and by definition faith is:

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

Like when people still insist Joe Gibbs will turn the Redskins around?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

OK not to get off topic, but do you honestly believe someone can be a good or bad roullette player? I don't know how many statistics classes you've taken over your lifetime, but basically, if you flip a fair and balanced coin, what are the chances it will land on heads? 50% right? Everyone knows that one. OK, so let's say the coin just landed on heads. Flip it again. What are the chances it will land on heads this time? 50% right? Again, an easy one. Now, imagine it has landed on heads 5 times in a row. Now flip it again. What are the chances it lands on heads this time?

50%.

The point is the odds don't change based on whatever patterns you're observing. Same goes for roullette, except instead of the coin resulting in two different outcomes, the ball can land on 38 different outcomes. So what are the chances that it will land on 00? 1/38.

Now imagine it has landed on 00 three times in a row. Now bet again. What are the chances it will land on 00 this time? 1/38.

There are no such things as patterns in roullette. The results are completely random. That's why in Vegas they say "if you think you have a roullette system, you've lost already."

Any success you've had in the past is purely the result of blind luck. You just happened to hit on the odds. If you're so good at it, and can predict the patterns, then why aren't you in Vegas now making a living off your prowess?

And that's the human condition in a nutshell. The need to search for patterns or meaning in completely random, unrelated, and meaningless events.

Glad to see you got my point.

However, I will tell you this, I have NEVER lost in roulette. In fact I have paid for my cruises with my system...and I have written a short "book" on how anyone can do it. I've won my mother (a complete idiot in gambling) lots of money. There are several keys, like never bet a ton of money, but what I bank on is that the wheel will always right itself. Just because you can't understand how I win, doesn't mean it is not possible. Also, you never stay at the wheel more than approximately 5 minutes at a time...I will not divulge my system, especially to such a person that only wants to pick it apart without looking at it...but I will give my basics to anyone that wants them via private message. (please only people that have played it before, it takes too long to explain the entire table)

You ask why I don't live in Vegas?
1- Since I figured out that the world will right itself somehow / equal the field, I have won over 10k in 4 years. (hope the tax man isn't watching) However, it comes at a price. It takes time and energy.
2- It's not fun. I had fun when I started, but inevitably, you will lose some and then have to gain it back to win overall. It's work.
3- There ARE people that make a career out of it, and make a very good living. It's not your fault you don't know, you're just skeptical.

ps- flipping a coin is not like playing roulette, you have 38 options in roulette, only 2 with flipping a coin. But I will say this, try flipping a coin 100 times and always use more or less umph when flipping (like a roulette dealer will use more or less umph to toss the ball on the wheel) and keep track of how many times it hits heads or tails. If you flip the same way every time, it will hit one more than the other, but if you change it up the coin will hit heads anywhere from 40-60% of the time, so why does it not hit say 10% of the time? Or 15% of the time?
I actually did a long study of how many numbers were hit and how often..I did over 10,000 rolls on the roulette system, and I noticed patterns. Like, don't EVER pick the actual numbers, you will lose.

I made this way too long...especially since you likely will not listen.

After thinking about it, I don't think a PM could explain the system since it doesn't have enough room, I'd need to e-mail the system.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Well first off, we're not discussion what we tell our kids, we're discussing what adults believe. But no, there is no harm in having faith in something if it makes you feel better (provided you're not organizing against other faiths).

You made a comment, I responded with a valid arguement, so while we here are not discussing what we tell our kids, it was used as an argument to help you understand my point.

I'm not arguing whether religion makes you feel better. It certainly does. I'm just arguing what is most likely the truth: there is no God. People just believe in him to feel better about their mortality, and all else that they cannot explain.

Actually you are not arguing what is "most likely the truth". You are arguing what is "most likely your opinion". Because what is most likely the truth is that there is a higher being of some sort, and science proves that. Like I said before, science goes as far back as it can, then scientists say that something had to have started it all. Everything has a beginning, everything, the only thing (in theory) that doesn't, is a "devine" being. Also, ask a doctor how the human body was made, and he / she will say it's too complex to be by accident. Does this prove the existance of God? Not definitively, no. But it certainly would lean more towards the truth being that there is a God, not that there isn't.
If you want to feel that everything that happened to us and everything around you is just one giant coincidence, that's your choice. I will just never understand why someone would willingly choose a path that would never ever give them a chance of a positive effect, when the other path at the very least has a 50/50 shot of bringing them a positive effect. It's playing the odds...it's like you flipping a coin and choosing sofa instead of heads or tails. At least I take a shot at heads or tails. Could I be wrong? Yes. But I still have a shot...when you bet sofa, you won't / can't win.

I do the same thing as GManc. When my grandmom died I tried to think of her as living on in heaven. Or at least living on in my heart and in my memories. Did I believe it was the truth? Hell no. But I told myself that, and it got me through a rough time.

If you truly don't beleive in it, then why lie to yourself? Or does your subconscious beleive, it's just your conscious that refuses to let it due to something that happened to you as a youngster. (I realize that sounds rude, and I assure you that is not my intent)

[saden1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Glad to see you got my point.

However, I will tell you this, I have NEVER lost in roulette. In fact I have paid for my cruises with my system...and I have written a short "book" on how anyone can do it. I've won my mother (a complete idiot in gambling) lots of money. There are several keys, like never bet a ton of money, but what I bank on is that the wheel will always right itself. Just because you can't understand how I win, doesn't mean it is not possible. Also, you never stay at the wheel more than approximately 5 minutes at a time...I will not divulge my system, especially to such a person that only wants to pick it apart without looking at it...but I will give my basics to anyone that wants them via private message. (please only people that have played it before, it takes too long to explain the entire table)

You ask why I don't live in Vegas?
1- Since I figured out that the world will right itself somehow / equal the field, I have won over 10k in 4 years. (hope the tax man isn't watching) However, it comes at a price. It takes time and energy.
2- It's not fun. I had fun when I started, but inevitably, you will lose some and then have to gain it back to win overall. It's work.
3- There ARE people that make a career out of it, and make a very good living. It's not your fault you don't know, you're just skeptical.

ps- flipping a coin is not like playing roulette, you have 38 options in roulette, only 2 with flipping a coin. But I will say this, try flipping a coin 100 times and always use more or less umph when flipping (like a roulette dealer will use more or less umph to toss the ball on the wheel) and keep track of how many times it hits heads or tails. If you flip the same way every time, it will hit one more than the other, but if you change it up the coin will hit heads anywhere from 40-60% of the time, so why does it not hit say 10% of the time? Or 15% of the time?
I actually did a long study of how many numbers were hit and how often..I did over 10,000 rolls on the roulette system, and I noticed patterns. Like, don't EVER pick the actual numbers, you will lose.

I made this way too long...especially since you likely will not listen.

After thinking about it, I don't think a PM could explain the system since it doesn't have enough room, I'd need to e-mail the system.

Will your system work in Russian Roulette?