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Debating with the enemy


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Old 03-13-2020, 12:32 PM   #31
CRedskinsRule
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Re: Healthcare thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
Serious question:

Whatís the downside of a socialized health care system?

Your taxes go up a little, but then you donít have to pay deductibles or premiums. Studies vary, but they all show it comes close to evening out for the average citizen. No more medical bills. No more fighting with insurance companies. No more medical debt.

So whatís the downside?

We already have socialized primary education systems, Socialized infrastructure, social security, etc. weíre all used to paying taxes that benefit society as a whole - so why is it some people are so vehemently opposed to doing the same for health care?

I fundamentally donít understand why something which benefits EVERYONE is so controversial. So if you think itís a horrible idea, please explain to me why you think so.


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The downside of any socialized process is the lessened incentive for initiatives, and ultimately the stagnation of the system. In healthcare specifically, this would manifest itself in fewer dollars flowing into research, for 2 main reasons

1) the federal dollars currently spent would inevitably be diverted towards maintaining equality of healthcare not progressive care - in fact specialized care requiring more dollars for fewer patients would be shunned in favor of cheaper care for more patients. The current social net approach allows a much more robust top end care while maintaining a mininum net for our most at risk populations

2) in the same vain, a true socialized system makes it more expensive for the rich to seek specialized care, because no matter how you handle the taxing it will by and far come from the highest earners in society, thus reducing their investment in indepedent solutions in the middle tier cases that breakthroughs most likely will be found. Instead they will utilize the system they are paying for and only at the high critical stages will they look to invest separately-if the government even allows them to for fear of creating an inequality that would be seen as reasons to further tax the higher earners.

Ultimately, no system is a perfect creation, as I told my kids often as they grew, life is not fair. There are inequalities in all. It is how those inequalities manifest themselves over a long term that makes socialized medicine a far worse system for our country, and the world, then a capitalist system with a strong safety net.

That leads me to one more observation/thought which is entirely opinion and likely inaccurately stated. The countries that Bernie often uses as reference thrive in part as that global safety net where the US capitalistic engine and approach enables them to add in safety nets where if they were dependemt on their economy 100percent for defense, goods and services, and utilitarian advances like satellites, service and technology increases, they would not be in a position to provide the social services they do now. But with US markets creating value and opportunity all the EU countries and the world in general has seen dramatic quality of life gains. I don't think those would have happened to the same extent if we had fully implemented a socialized medicine system 50 years ago. Who knows what advances we can see in the next 50 years or that we won't see if we go to a socialized system.


Edit because i have such a strong capitalistic streak you may think I am one of those high wage earners. I am not. I currently make less than the US national average by a good deal. I have relied on government assistance for my kids and myself at multiple points in the past 10 years. I do believe in a social safety net but it should be a catch amd release net not an entangling layer of ropes.
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Old 03-13-2020, 12:36 PM   #32
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Re: Healthcare thread

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Originally Posted by MTK View Post
^ I guess I'm not understanding why you think health coverage for all means you'll be forced to visit a backroom slum Dr?
I am obviously just guessing, as we all are, but I could see the quality and availability of private practices going down as they wouldnt be private anymore. Anyone who wants an appointment can get in line.

What would happen to my kids private high quality dental office? Do you think they are going to maintain the high quality staff and workplace like the have now if its all medicaid?

Why pay to have tvs on the ceiling and quality staff and sterile environments.

I imagine all the current high quality practices will dissolve or greatly degress to a median care ...

Long view .. would this de-incentives young doctors from going to the best schools ... why go to some amazing expensive med school if when you get out, you get paid the same as someone who went to a podunk med school?

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Health care and medicine in this country definitely needs an overhaul. And I get the overhaul is needed for the poor or dependent ....

seeing medicaid in action ... its an eye opener if youre used to private health care. that much i know I am not guessing on.

I dont want to get the low quality service and wait lines like medicaid offers.

-----------------------



I guess I am afraid that in an effort to pull peoples health care up, they wont come up but Ill be pulled down with them.
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Old 03-13-2020, 01:24 PM   #33
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Re: Healthcare thread

C Red -- well said, better than my histrionics
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Old 03-13-2020, 03:52 PM   #34
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Re: Healthcare thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnySide View Post
I am obviously just guessing, as we all are, but I could see the quality and availability of private practices going down as they wouldnt be private anymore. Anyone who wants an appointment can get in line.

What would happen to my kids private high quality dental office? Do you think they are going to maintain the high quality staff and workplace like the have now if its all medicaid?

Why pay to have tvs on the ceiling and quality staff and sterile environments.

I imagine all the current high quality practices will dissolve or greatly degress to a median care ...

Long view .. would this de-incentives young doctors from going to the best schools ... why go to some amazing expensive med school if when you get out, you get paid the same as someone who went to a podunk med school?

--------------

Health care and medicine in this country definitely needs an overhaul. And I get the overhaul is needed for the poor or dependent ....

seeing medicaid in action ... its an eye opener if youre used to private health care. that much i know I am not guessing on.

I dont want to get the low quality service and wait lines like medicaid offers.

-----------------------



I guess I am afraid that in an effort to pull peoples health care up, they wont come up but Ill be pulled down with them.
My Dr friend talked both of his kids out of becoming a Dr's. He said if he was paid for all his work at medicaid rate he would be closed in a month.
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Old 03-13-2020, 06:40 PM   #35
CRedskinsRule
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Re: Healthcare thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
Serious question:

Whatís the downside of a socialized health care system?

Your taxes go up a little, but then you donít have to pay deductibles or premiums. Studies vary, but they all show it comes close to evening out for the average citizen. No more medical bills. No more fighting with insurance companies. No more medical debt.

So whatís the downside?

We already have socialized primary education systems, Socialized infrastructure, social security, etc. weíre all used to paying taxes that benefit society as a whole - so why is it some people are so vehemently opposed to doing the same for health care?

I fundamentally donít understand why something which benefits EVERYONE is so controversial. So if you think itís a horrible idea, please explain to me why you think so.


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My previous answer didn't reply to your points on socialized primary education, infrastructure, and social security. I have 2 responses to that as well.
The first piggy backs on the innovation argument in my previous response. In 2 of those 3 areas -primary education and infrastructure - I think most people would agree we fall woefully short of where we "should" be. I think it is a fair statement that primary education is caught in a huge political quagmire between the powerful teachers association and the charter school ideas of the conservative side, would we have that if we had more of a capitalistic approach with a safety net, I don't know, but in 50 years do we want our medical system to look like our primary schools - inner cities failing, taxes skyrocketing -see md's new education bill. Or our infrastructure, have you seen how hard that has been to pass even though all the politicians give lip service to it. What about Dominos push to fill potholes, is the socialized system really working out so much better than private, again I don't know but when you see the advances of private companies like Uber and Lyft one could wonder where our infrastructure would be if 50 years ago we had encouraged more privatization. I don't know, but can you guarantee it would be worse? Would a private company see the traffic around the dc beltway as an opportunity to build a better mousetrap (ie elon musk's hyperloop) instead of seeing it as politicians do -how do we get the taxpayers to buy into increased taxes for something they don't use.

The second answer goes to social security, and I am thankful for social security, but it is either going to go bankrupt or to be an incredible burden against the government budget. The politicians know they need to make common sense changes like raising the retirement age and income testing recipients, but those are untenable political choices ao they keep kicking it down the road hoping some other politician will have to make the damning decisions. Imagine our whole health system frozen in a state of dire financial need and politicians being tasked to make tough financial calls. We already know with the hyper politicisation of the ACA that few if any politicians will make the hard votes against their political lives.

So that is how I would respond to the claim we already have socialized institutions why not add our medical system. First, most of our socialized institutions fail many of those they are intended to serve - primary schools/infrastructure. Second, they become political hotwires- social security, that prevent politicians to make needed changes until it hits crisis points or the economy crashes around them. For me, i would rather the goverment focus on the safety net, the edges that private markets struggle with, and let the bulk of the system run and grow external to political whims and government red ink.


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Last edited by CRedskinsRule; 03-13-2020 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 03-14-2020, 04:41 PM   #36
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Re: Healthcare thread

What I think definitely needs to be done is a ceiling for charges. I can't remember when and where but I saw a study where they took people to various emergency rooms with different minor ailments. The common one was a sprained ankle, the charges varied from $300 to $13,000. That is freaking nuts! It is like someone spinning a game show wheel to come up with numbers. I can understand costs varying somewhat by overhead costs but over 40x as much?
I wonder how they do come up with pricing?

I have always like math and numbers strangely enough I remember by parents paying $27 for an emergency room visit I had at the age of 8 in 1969 to get stitched up, 17 of them as I remember. Put that in an inflation calculator, that is $190 in today's money. That was a small hospital out in the country in Northern California. What would that cost today?
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