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Debating with the enemy


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Old 09-10-2015, 03:21 PM   #211
Chico23231
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

Israeli defense chief: Russian troops already in Syria

Folks, you see whats happening? Putin is doing whatever he wants...Russian troops in Syria is big f*ckin news. Big
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:15 PM   #212
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
Putin assassinates people. The Poland president's plane mysteriously went off a runway in Russia a few years ago and he was killed.

Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness

as anticipated, Maripul will eventually be taken and Russia can complete their land grab.

ohhhhh man are we gonna slap them with sanctions or what!!! maybe target their dairy industry this time?

(sarcasm but cant think of another option, i do not want war or boots on ground)
Perhaps we could get the Ruskies to.....inspect their own Dairies with 124 days notice? Depending on the secret side deals of course.....
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:57 PM   #213
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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Perhaps we could get the Ruskies to.....inspect their own Dairies with 124 days notice? Depending on the secret side deals of course.....
it sure would be nice if you read the articles and not just the headlines. one can always hope i guess.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:59 PM   #214
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

Just having a little fun.....
You seem to be a little sensitive?
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:09 PM   #215
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by over the mountain View Post
Putin assassinates people. The Poland president's plane mysteriously went off a runway in Russia a few years ago and he was killed.

Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness

as anticipated, Maripul will eventually be taken and Russia can complete their land grab.

ohhhhh man are we gonna slap them with sanctions or what!!! maybe target their dairy industry this time?

(sarcasm but cant think of another option, i do not want war or boots on ground)
russia's there to help fight back the moderate rebels (since we're working on ISIS, they rather not waste their time with that. I don't think they want land there, but they want a friendly government, and if assad falls, they don't see anyone else to fill that vacuum and be receptive to them.

syria's such a cluster at this point though. there wasn't a lot of support for the moderates early, so now there's tons of hard line islamists fighting there, and if we bomb assad, we help isis, if we bomb isis we help assad. and no matter who we try to give weapons too, everyone ends up getting them since the secularists/moderates/hardliners are all kind of mixed, and everyone's doing things you'd rather not hear about. I have no idea how you fix that.
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:57 AM   #216
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

If Russia has ground troops in Syria this is a very big issue. to simply say "oh well" is un-fucking-acceptable by this administration.

Folks, we have Iranian troops and Russian troops fighting along side a regime which has used chemical warfare and had dropped barrell bombs on civilian targets...

Are we serious? Why isnt the media talking about this???? This is a major deal.

We should first yank the Iranian deal immediately off the table and impose the sanctions and then we should be in the UN ass about this escalation. Review sanctions against Russia...
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:06 PM   #217
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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russia's there to help fight back the moderate rebels (since we're working on ISIS, they rather not waste their time with that. I don't think they want land there, but they want a friendly government, and if assad falls, they don't see anyone else to fill that vacuum and be receptive to them.

syria's such a cluster at this point though. there wasn't a lot of support for the moderates early, so now there's tons of hard line islamists fighting there, and if we bomb assad, we help isis, if we bomb isis we help assad. and no matter who we try to give weapons too, everyone ends up getting them since the secularists/moderates/hardliners are all kind of mixed, and everyone's doing things you'd rather not hear about. I have no idea how you fix that.
makes you wish we left Saddam in power to keep the balance of power in the unstable region stable or at least in check.
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:09 PM   #218
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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If Russia has ground troops in Syria this is a very big issue. to simply say "oh well" is un-fucking-acceptable by this administration.
well, i mean, unless we're putting troops there, enforcing the sanctions that are already being enforced or thinking putin cares about the UN probably won't get you very far. russia cares very much about it's sphere of influence and is supporting it's ally (who we don't like very much). they've already taken parts of georgia and the ukraine, and while the sanctions have hurt russia a lot, they've focused the hardships as america waging economic war on them for no good reason (we're more hated in russia now than we've ever been, state controlled media and targetted killings really let you set the message).

I mean, i think a lot of people forget all the times america's done the things we get upset about (illegally trafficking foreigners to black sites to be tortured, supporting strong men with bad human rights records like saddam or the shah, contras, etc). it gets into all those questions of moral relativity, points of view, and whether we're world police or not, etc etc, and i don't really feel like hashing all that out on a football forum.

so to each his own, but I think sometimes these situations aren't as cut and dry or easily solved as some talking heads might have one believe.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:53 PM   #219
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

How can we be more hated in Russia than we have EVER BEEN? That's a pretty huge statement and if true(and I believe it is or close to it) then isn't that quite a condemnation of the whole reset notion passed down by Hillary Clinton and Pres. Obama?

Pres. Putin is absolutely flexing his military muscles, and I don't know that he can be counted on to act as a leader wanting international peace at any cost. I don't say that he wants war, but I will say I don't think he would be afraid of going at it militarily with the US. (He might be more afraid of Israel, but if he has ground troops in Syria than he's not feeling very afraid of them either).

Right now, there are more active battlefields where Russian military are actively engaged than has been the case since 1960's (that's my hyperbole, I don't have stats but I'd be shocked if it wasn't true). And it's not like he has shown any sign that status quo is good enough. Right now, Iran/Russia are quite a powerful alliance in the middle East and Syria/Northern Iraq makes for good land to be divided between them.

Throwing in a little wartime paranoia, it would not be shocking to see the Middle East turn into the start of WW3, as it is in mostly the same shape as Europe was around the start of the 20th century. A couple power centers, a couple minor players, and 3 or 4 deadly enemies. The terrain is obviously different, but there are several places where battle lines could be drawn very easily and very quickly.

edit:
I read this -http://finance.yahoo.com/news/just-got-clearest-sign-yet-181700769.html- after my above post, it has some themes along the same lines.
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:56 AM   #220
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
If Russia has ground troops in Syria this is a very big issue. to simply say "oh well" is un-fucking-acceptable by this administration.

Folks, we have Iranian troops and Russian troops fighting along side a regime which has used chemical warfare and had dropped barrell bombs on civilian targets...

Are we serious? Why isnt the media talking about this???? This is a major deal.

We should first yank the Iranian deal immediately off the table and impose the sanctions and then we should be in the UN ass about this escalation. Review sanctions against Russia...
YOU know exactly why...

And a little food for thought
Exclusive: 50 Spies Say ISIS Intelligence Was Cooked - The Daily Beast
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:04 PM   #221
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

well, where is russia right now? georgia, syria, and ukraine. so they probably have been in more countries at other points (afghanistan/vietnam/all the various skirmish/satellite wars), but i'm not really sure. they definitely aren't doing super well in the ukraine though, and it's getting hard for them to hide the russian body count.

iran/russia aren't really an ironclad alliance of any kind. russia doesn't want iran to have nukes, and i'm not sure they're working in concert, but believe they're just both trying to advance their own regional interests/agendas. I also don't think they're looking to divide up land as much as gain control/influence. they want to leave bashir in power. he's aligned with them and there aren't any (obvious) good alternatives for them.


and yeah, ignoring isis is a huge mistake. while they don't really pose any immediate danger to america, they definitely are causing havoc to our interests and regional stability, and they're much harder to deal with now than 8 or 12 months ago. unfortunately ISIS was probably a preventable problem. (firing the entire iraqi military, telling them they could basically never be employed again was a big mistake, and then ignoring iraq as maliki tried to consolidate power, arresting and excluding sunnis and political rivals).
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Old 09-12-2015, 02:37 PM   #222
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

I agree with your last paragraph 100% but...

So Russia and Iran are not working in concert to strategically push there own interest against the west and Israel? It's not about carving up the Middle East...That's your most naive statement.

Believe me, if Putin remembers the fall of the Soviet Union eastern block, then he remembers the failures in Afghanistan. He looking to gain a political foothold within the Middle East again. Syria and Iran are his in. They are hammering out a massive arms deal with the Iranians now. Sending troops into Damascus is a clear escalation...Russia sends a message to the U.S. And Israel we are military aligned with Iran, Syria Assad regime and Hezbollah. The U.S. Needs to recognize this...its crystal clear
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Old 09-12-2015, 03:47 PM   #223
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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I agree with your last paragraph 100% but...

So Russia and Iran are not working in concert to strategically push there own interest against the west and Israel? It's not about carving up the Middle East...That's your most naive statement.
I said they weren't looking for land but influence, in response to CRR talking about dividing land, so i think you might want to re-read that. I think russia and iran are working with syria, but not necessarily each other, they have different aims, but they both want a friendly syria with bashir in charge, so i'm sure there's some overlap, but they're not in lockstep, which again, i said in my last post.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:04 PM   #224
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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I said they weren't looking for land but influence, in response to CRR talking about dividing land, so i think you might want to re-read that. I think russia and iran are working with syria, but not necessarily each other, they have different aims, but they both want a friendly syria with bashir in charge, so i'm sure there's some overlap, but they're not in lockstep, which again, i said in my last post.
So they didn't take land in Crimea or Georgia? Iran certainly wants northern Iraq land and would gladly partition northern Iraq and Syria.

I also think it is naive to think Putin is not in a solid alliance with Iran. He has shown every inclination to take action first and let the west cry foul afterwards. And him sending top of the line antiaircraft batteries to Syria and resuming military trade with Iran indicates a push into the middle east that is going to open a whole new aspect to the middle east.

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Old 09-12-2015, 09:05 PM   #225
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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So they didn't take land in Crimea or Georgia? Iran certainly wants northern Iraq land and would gladly partition northern Iraq and Syria.
he did want land in georgia and crimea, he doesn't in syria. it's far away and an obvious headache. they already had their own misadventures in afghanistan where jihadii's came from far and wide, and they're already up to ~5k deaths in crimea last i heard. they wanted those parts of georgia and the ukraine because they feel those people are russians and they've stated that they consider themselves responsible for all native russian speakers. their aims in syria and with iran are different than the ukraine.

if they wanted to rule syria, they could just invade it, and then they'd have the entire burden of fighting isis, which wouldn't be cheap or popular back home.
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