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Debating with the enemy


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Old 03-05-2014, 05:44 PM   #76
over the mountain
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

the 1993 treaty does bind us but i think at this stage it requires us to hold mandatory meetings to eval the situation. i read that in an article a few days ago so dont hold me 100% to that.

nc skins - when you say "same people" do you mean talking political pundits like mccain or warpathers? i think politicians and joe public learned a lot about military intervention with Iraq. i know now that if there is any other way to achieve the goal without military intervention, it should be explored and given ample time to play out. boots on the ground is the last option imo.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:57 PM   #77
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by Alvin Walton View Post
Thats amusing.
And absurd.
I admit, that was a little much Ivan Walton
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:25 PM   #78
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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Putin is becoming a big pain but I cant help but think that all our proxy wars with former USSR nations that border current Russia (attempting nato missile defense system in Poland and Turkey, steering Ukraine pro EU/West, totally destabilizing Iraq, sanctioning Iran) is the reason.

We have effed with Russia repeatedly with countries right at their door step and Putin is right to say the US sits across the pond and treats other countries like lab rats in political experiments.

I despise Putin but we are serious international jerks.

I also think Putin was very dumb to act so unilaterally and aggressively and the US and EU can really capitalize on this opportunity. No one is standing with Russia on this.

Russian economy has lost over 75 billion on Monday alone.

USA can now justify some of their clandestine political interference.
None of our actions that you describe are "proxy wars" by us.

Please don't blame any of what Putin is doing to Ukraine on us. He did the same thing to Georgia: "Russify" a region over time, then split that territory off into a client state friendly to Russia.

We aren't treating other countries as lab experiments. A better analogy would be that Putin is playing Go with/on Eastern Europe.
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:26 PM   #79
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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Old 03-05-2014, 07:29 PM   #80
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.







I know, substitute "Crimea" for "Ukraine"....
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:50 PM   #81
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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I admit, that was a little much Ivan Walton
I didnt LOL.
So what is it?
US Marines in the Ukraine or not?
Spare me the waffles.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:51 PM   #82
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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jpeg spelling fail...
Credibility shot to hell....
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:52 PM   #83
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

Just want to clarify, the Budapest Memorandum doesn't bind any party to any action. It is only as good as the value the parties that signed it are, and in the case of the US and UK, we were just there as witnesses.

In a certain way, it's like witnesses for a marriage. If one of the two decides to get a divorce the witnesses aren't obligated to prevent it by all means necessary.

The Partnership for Peace commitments create more obligations, but even there, we aren't in a fully functional mutual defense treaty. Again, putting it in non political terms, it's more like co-signing for an adult kid's car. Yes, you are obligated to repay, but only at the pure default of the primary signatories.

We want to be sure that Putin isn't going Stalin/Hitler as he gets older, but nothing that's happened should cause us to put our forces on the ground.

All that said, I think it's hilarious that a guy like AW who will balk at the most minor military cutbacks will say that 1 billion dollars in support of Ukraine won't do nothing. Pretty sure they wouldn't spend the first 10Million on sending the Thunderbirds on a tour, they probably would actually reinforce their defenses and economic infrastructure.
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:09 PM   #84
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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Just want to clarify, the Budapest Memorandum doesn't bind any party to any action. It is only as good as the value the parties that signed it are, and in the case of the US and UK, we were just there as witnesses.

In a certain way, it's like witnesses for a marriage. If one of the two decides to get a divorce the witnesses aren't obligated to prevent it by all means necessary.

The Partnership for Peace commitments create more obligations, but even there, we aren't in a fully functional mutual defense treaty. Again, putting it in non political terms, it's more like co-signing for an adult kid's car. Yes, you are obligated to repay, but only at the pure default of the primary signatories.

We want to be sure that Putin isn't going Stalin/Hitler as he gets older, but nothing that's happened should cause us to put our forces on the ground.

All that said, I think it's hilarious that a guy like AW who will balk at the most minor military cutbacks will say that 1 billion dollars in support of Ukraine won't do nothing. Pretty sure they wouldn't spend the first 10Million on sending the Thunderbirds on a tour, they probably would actually reinforce their defenses and economic infrastructure.
That's some good info about the treaty and thanks for digging that up/clarifying it.
And your military cutback comment doesnt make any sense as I lean heavily towards Libertarian values.
The Ukraine/Russia thing is so convoluted that I would still prefer to spend our tax dollars (the ones I put in the coffers) towards the Thunderbirds.

America first.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:35 AM   #85
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

Crimea votes to join Russia, accelerating Ukraine crisis
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:50 PM   #86
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

I thought this cnn piece was pretty informative:

Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk rejects referendum on Crimea split - CNN.com
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:14 PM   #87
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule View Post
I thought this cnn piece was pretty informative:

Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk rejects referendum on Crimea split - CNN.com
"Lavrov has criticized moves by the OSCE and NATO, which has suspended some joint undertakings with Russia, saying their actions "are not helping to create an atmosphere of dialogue and constructive cooperation."

This is the type of shit that is mind boggling. HELLOOO you invaded a fucking country with tanks, surface to air missles and 16k troops and your pissed about suspended activities. NATO should put some troops in the Ukraine, lets see what they do.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:28 PM   #88
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/06/wo...pgtype=article

Freedom of the Press in Russia? right
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:07 PM   #89
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

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NATO should put some troops in the Ukraine, lets see what they do.
i normally agree with you but i really think we should show restraint. I agree that russia's actions and statements are maddening and frustrating. but i believe thats exactly what russia wants .. to goad us in to bailing him out by resorting to military intervention.

the longer putin stays the provoker, the longer the heat will be on him and the longer the entire international community will further distance themselves from him.

he is looking really bad all on his own right now.

id let him stew in the hot pot he put himself in.

i think putin is wishing we would put boots on the ground to take some of the heat off him, accelerate the ultimate end solution (russia gets crimea) and he can move on acting as if this never happened.

let putin lay in the bed he shitted all by himself.

his only alternative is to keep pushing the boundaries to try and provoke a military response so then the int'l community will hold meetings, make him concessions to avoid all out war and he tries to go back to life as normal.

putin made a huge mistake, lets not give him exactly what he wants.

eventually after putin does all types of provocative stuff, we will have to announce we are moving nato troops, then everyone will negotiate but ..........lets make putin really be an indefensible ass for a few more weeks.
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Old 03-07-2014, 09:11 AM   #90
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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.

If true, these soldiers have Balls of Steel.

The Standoff at Belbek: Inside the First Clash of the Second Crimean War - Simon Shuster, TIME.com


"After he decided Russian ultimatums to surrender were a bluff, Ukrainian base commander Yuli Mamchur played a mind game of his own by marching to a Russian-occupied airfield while carrying a Soviet flag in a gambit the Russian troops wouldn't open fire"
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