'Occupy' types

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I posted this in one of the other political threads, but I think it belongs here. For those comparing the Tea Party movement to the Occupy movement, I would suggest there is a significant difference between the two. To be clear, I sympathize with elements of both movements - the Tea Party's theme of limited government and restoration of federalism, and the Occupy Movement's theme of corporate America's innate dysfunction and disconnect. I also disgree with both on many other issues. At the same time, from a practical analysis, I think the Tea Party has been (and will continue to be) a far more effective grass roots movement.

Unlike the the Tea Party, the Occupy movement is not actually organizing change it's just pouting about the problem. The Tea Party group - regardless of what you think of their message - organized, worked within the system, and elected numerous people who they believed would effect change. They were effective in that many politicians reflecting the "status quo" were defeated despite being backed by "the machine" (as it were). The Occupy folks have a clear and simple way to effect corporate change - buy in. Buy stocks and organize voting blocks within the corporations. It's hard, it's a lot of work, it would involve many setbacks, but there is a way for them to effectively change the structure. There is also, of course, the Tea Party route - identify an agenda, find individuals who support that agenda to run against machine politicians, and work like hell to elect those individuals -- or you can just sit in your own stench and whine. I am sure that will be effective too.

Just like the Tea Party, the Occupy movement oversimplifies both the problem & the solution and is just blatantly wrong on many things. They are every bit as stupid as those in the Tea Party whom the left likes to pillory. Of course, the dumb Tea Partiers probably don't have degrees from "I Am Smarter Than You & My Sh** Don't Stink" University so they are easier to pick on.

Excellent post.

Since the OWS movement has vague goals and even vaguer paths for achieving them, I have wondered how it can be brought to an end. When will people stop sitting in? For example, an anti-war movement can be ended by ending a war. But what can be given to the OWS folks to make them feel like, "We've achieved our goals"?

The only proximate endpoint that I can see for the Occupy movement is the onset of cold weather.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Excellent post.

Since the OWS movement has vague goals and even vaguer paths for achieving them, I have wondered how it can be brought to an end. When will people stop sitting in? For example, an anti-war movement can be ended by ending a war. But what can be given to the OWS folks to make them feel like, "We've achieved our goals"?

The only proximate endpoint that I can see for the Occupy movement is the onset of cold weather.

Or large corporations can show up and dump buckets of money and they would all leave to go buy Birkenstocks and bongs.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Excellent post.

Since the OWS movement has vague goals and even vaguer paths for achieving them, I have wondered how it can be brought to an end. When will people stop sitting in? For example, an anti-war movement can be ended by ending a war. But what can be given to the OWS folks to make them feel like, "We've achieved our goals"?

The only proximate endpoint that I can see for the Occupy movement is the onset of cold weather.

You know why it's not clear? THE MEDIA. They don't want to make it clear. They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest. It's simple.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

2) Remove corporate/wall street ties with government.

3) Tax corporations appropriately.


There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.

The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, they are in bed with the politicians. They are major contributors and basically set the policy at hand. The politicians aren't going to take a stand because it's biting the hand that feeds them, and many of them are making huge gains off of the very stuff they let slide.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Or large corporations can show up and dump buckets of money and they would all leave to go buy Birkenstocks and bongs.

Profile much?

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You know why it's not clear? THE MEDIA. They don't want to make it clear. They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest. It's simple.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

2) Remove corporate/wall street ties with government.

3) Tax corporations appropriately.


There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.

The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, they are in bed with the politicians. They are major contributors and basically set the policy at hand. The politicians aren't going to take a stand because it's biting the hand that feeds them, and many of them are making huge gains off of the very stuff they let slide.

I guess the media is also on youtube making these people look like fools without a clear msg. The part I highlight is the only thing you posted I agree with. You wnat the people convicted but the problem is that most of the people who ran this into the ground did not break laws they just made poor decisions or greedy decisions.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Profile much?

He thinks he's pretty ****ing cute with his lame comments (and mocking a death/slaughtering of animals), but the reality of it is he's coming off like a huge douche bag.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I guess the media is also on youtube making these people look like fools without a clear msg. The part I highlight is the only thing you posted I agree with. You wnat the people convicted but the problem is that most of the people who ran this into the ground did not break laws they just made poor decisions or greedy decisions.

Again FD, SELECTIVE EDITING. I can create any story you want by finding the exact responses and then editing them to make it look like all the people are ****ing stupid. HERP DERP! LOOK GUYS I INTERVIEWED 150 PEOPLE BUT WILL ONLY SHOW YOU 5 BECAUSE THOSE WERE THE MOST STUPID PEOPLE I COULD FIND. Give me a ****ing break. This kind of shit pisses me off and it does exactly what it is supposed to. Throw guys just like YOU off on the real problem. (greedy banks and corruption) Keep you focus on the real problem at hand, not what you perceive is a bunch of jerk wads wanting free handouts. Our media reminds me much like this part in this movie. Blind them with the moon (bullshit) so they continue towing the line they want you to believe.




You mean fraud isn't breaking the law? Let me quote you what friend of mine said who is in the financial industry.

The banks greed is what caused the collapse.

I was in the industry, so I have some institutional history.

You can blame the consumer all you want, but that simply isn't correct. There were primarily to types of loans that were bad loans.

1. Sub-prime: these were the high interest variable loans for people with bad credit history. They were often sold as a "fix your credit" loan. People were told that they could make payments consistently for two years at high rates and then refi it into a fixed conventional loan. The banks gambled every single time they sold these, but didn't care. The points, fees and rates were extremely high and they were making a ton of money.

2. Neg-Am loans: these loans had a deferred interest feature. I'm other words...let's say the going rate was 6%. They would lower your payment by only charging you 2%. The other 4% would get added to your balance, increasing your debt each month. These are the ones that people say that the consumer was to blame and they do deserve some blame, but listen to how they were sold...greedy as ****...

People were told 2 things to convince them it was a good loan. First...they told people that they could take that money (payment savings) and invest it making more than the amount of deferred interest. Also...they were told that they could refi it every 2 years (that was the max you could defer) essentially keeping their payment low. (more fees, more loans, higher profits, higher stock prices, ETC.)

This inflated property values because cost of the house became less important to consumers. Payment were still low. When property values

The problem was when property values peaked and stopped rising, the deferred interest piled up to a point where people owed more than it was worth and couldn't refinance...the rate jumped back up and people could no longer afford the payments.

It's important to remember that these bankers knew these were bad loans and that at some point it would all collapse. They didn't care. They saw it as a way to makes gobs of money...and they did.

Sorry for the lengthy response, but I hate the "blame the consumer" argument

Sounds like fraud to me. Nothing different from this and a Ponzi scheme.


Nope. Nothing wrong with this. /facepalm

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest.

For the most part they are.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

Does that include folks in the Clinton Admin. and Bush Admins?

Bill Clinton's drive to increase homeownership went way too far - BusinessWeek

How about Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Greg Meeks, Lacy Clay, Athur Davis

Democrats were WARNED of Financial crisis and did...

Sen. Chris Dodd took millions from now-failing finance firms he oversees - latimes.com

There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.

If folks broke the law they should be prosecuted and punished. If folks stayed within the laws/regulations then we need to look at the problem being gov't interference in the markets. Without gov't programs to incentivize home ownership, lending standards would not have been eased to create the bad mortgage assets that triggered the financial crisis.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

For the most part they are.

And so are most republicans. See what I did there?

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Does that include folks in the Clinton Admin. and Bush Admins?

Hey, it's politicians doing the bidding of big business. Guess who wants to eliminate ALL corporate sponsorship of campaigns? THIS GUY.


Funny you mention Clinton, but some of his policies really were the start of the downfall. (deregulation/NAFTA)

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

How about Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Greg Meeks, Lacy Clay, Athur Davis

What part of ALL of them didn't you get? I mean every last mother ****er that played a part in it. I mean like French Revolution style. Round them all up, and chop their heads off in public square.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Sen. Chris Dodd took millions from now-failing finance firms he oversees - latimes.com

I don't get you. Why in the **** are you up here trying to blast Democrats? Haven't you got it through your skull yet that I don't support ANY party and I think both parties are worthless? It's getting a bit annoying with your petty Repbulican vs Democrat bickering. That's the problem. Most of you guys are so blinded by the whole Repubs vs Dem that you take that mantle and run with it. You'd think many of you see it as a Cowboys vs Redskins rivalry. DEMOCRATS SUCK!!......REPUBLICANS ARE MORONS!!

News Flash: They are all equally worthless. The Republicans just show it more.

Sorry about the rant, but stop acting as I'm some dude toting a blue donkey flag parroting Democrat wishes.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I posted this in one of the other political threads, but I think it belongs here. For those comparing the Tea Party movement to the Occupy movement, I would suggest there is a significant difference between the two. To be clear, I sympathize with elements of both movements - the Tea Party's theme of limited government and restoration of federalism, and the Occupy Movement's theme of corporate America's innate dysfunction and disconnect. I also disgree with both on many other issues. At the same time, from a practical analysis, I think the Tea Party has been (and will continue to be) a far more effective grass roots movement.

Unlike the the Tea Party, the Occupy movement is not actually organizing change it's just pouting about the problem. The Tea Party group - regardless of what you think of their message - organized, worked within the system, and elected numerous people who they believed would effect change. They were effective in that many politicians reflecting the "status quo" were defeated despite being backed by "the machine" (as it were). The Occupy folks have a clear and simple way to effect corporate change - buy in. Buy stocks and organize voting blocks within the corporations. It's hard, it's a lot of work, it would involve many setbacks, but there is a way for them to effectively change the structure. There is also, of course, the Tea Party route - identify an agenda, find individuals who support that agenda to run against machine politicians, and work like hell to elect those individuals -- or you can just sit in your own stench and whine. I am sure that will be effective too.

Just like the Tea Party, the Occupy movement oversimplifies both the problem & the solution and is just blatantly wrong on many things. They are every bit as stupid as those in the Tea Party whom the left likes to pillory. Of course, the dumb Tea Partiers probably don't have degrees from "I Am Smarter Than You & My Sh** Don't Stink" University so they are easier to pick on.

Very well said and i completely agree.

Though the Tea Party did a lot to advance their cause part of it was because they got hijacked. It was originally many young libertarian minded people who fell in love with the ideas of Ron Paul over the internet and were fueled by a rebellion to a intrusive, socially conservative and fiscally irresponsible federal government under Bush fresh. Constant mocking by from the left kept many of the socially liberal people who originally shared interest with the Tea Partiers away. It grew to influential size as many social conservatives joined because of dissatisfaction from a neo-conservative big government movement in the Republican party. While the addition of social conservatives gave the Tea Party movement organization and influence it also fundamentally changed it.

I think something similar could happen with OWS, although besides the Unions I don’t really know any faction of the Democratic party that has the capability to organize non-race specific groups. Unfortunately the media on the right has spent a lot of time mocking these people just like the left did with tea partiers. While the originally tea parties shared a lot of common ground with social liberals many in the media ended up spoiling that relationship, and unfortunately it looks it may be same in the reverse situation…..

[over the mountain]

i do believe the current financial structure is out of whack. im sure a bunch of rich guys are getting richer on govt passed policies that make us working class people more in debt.

i hate the fact that over the next 30 years i am going to repay what? 1 million dollars for a 200k home loan . . . but im too tired and busy working to stop and look around. let alone think anything will be done about it.

US economy = working class in debt. it just is what it is. atleast they give us football on sundays and cold beers during happy hour.

im going to be dirving by the occupy balitmore a few times tonight, if i see anything noteworthy ill post it. mayeb ill run up to one of their tents and get a pic of me pissing on it? yay? nay?

edit - got another denial in the email again today. before when i had dirty pee i was invited to interviews, now that i got clean pee i cant get one. the next employer who denies me im goign to go and pee on their front door handle at night. eff employers with their policy of no thank you!

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Profile much?

No, I look at pictures.



http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/101511_0063.jpg[/img]

[SirClintonPortis]

Lol, NC_Skins. First things first, just what in the code did they violate? You can't charge someone with a crime without identifying the crime first.

[hooskins]

AW, so based on a few pictures and image the media wants to portray you will generalize on an entire movement? Nice. Ever heard of a significant statistical sample?

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You know why it's not clear? THE MEDIA. They don't want to make it clear. They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest.

One, all I have heard from the media is sympathy for the OWS movement - how they are a populist movement striving to focus their outrage. All sorts of little guy v. big bad corporations. At the same time, I am sure that media from the right is doing as you say. I am equally sure that left leaning media is portraying them as modern day evangelists/heros - little Davids against big bad Goliaths. Sunday OWS Notes - NYTimes.com; Occupy Wall Street reacts to Goldman Sachs pay - Oct. 20, 2011; Occupy Wall Street shows muscle, raises $300K - US news - Life - msnbc.com

The typical preachers are talking to the typical choirs. The facts are out there and being reported. Depending on which channel you listen to, the space between the facts is filled with red or blue spin.

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

It's simple.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

2) Remove corporate/wall street ties with government.

3) Tax corporations appropriately.

I get it. You hate corporations and rich people. The OWS movement must just have you salivating like crack to an addict. However, if what you say is truly "the message", than the OWS is just plain dumb and is exhibiting a fundamental failure to understand economics and criminal law 101.

(1) Cite me the specific criminal statutes violated by specific individuals. Not some generic bull sh**. Facts & laws - specifics. When, where and how? Who, specifically, committed what specific crimes? Before you start depriving individuals of their liberty, I would suggest they are entitled to a little due process of the law.

If those "who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground" did so out of epically bad judgment rather than through specific criminal actions - does the OWS still support criminal sanctions? I, for one, don't support a movement that would suggest we allow the retroactive imposition of criminal penalties for actions not deemed criminal at the time they were taken. Seems to me a bad, bad precedent.

(2, 3) So tax corporations and take property from their investors but don't let those self-same investors have a voice in government through the corporate entity. More simply, tax but allow no representation - seems to me that was the underlying theme of some other revolution in history.

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.

And it was allllll "the corporations" fault - not all those taking advantage of easy money, applying for loans with inflated home values and false income information or purchasing homes on speculation.

BTW - Is the same govt in which you have no faith that you would have collecting and performing the wealth distribution?

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, they are in bed with the politicians. They are major contributors and basically set the policy at hand. The politicians aren't going to take a stand because it's biting the hand that feeds them, and many of them are making huge gains off of the very stuff they let slide.

No. The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, to my knowledge, they have not done anything criminal but, rather, made dumb/bad investments and used traditionally accepted, but risky, accounting procedures to inflate values in an effort to create the most wealth for their investors.

Ultimately, with corporations, there is inherent conflict/disconnect between the need for and purpose of a corporation's legal existence and the proper functioning of a free market. Corporations exist to pool resources and protect individuals from personal liability which allows for greater risk and larger investment. At the same time, in doing so, the corporate entity shields managers from suffering the same penalty the corporation suffers for bad investments - loss of value. It is this disconnect that allows these large corporations to make dumb, risky investments while having the managers profit regardless of whether or not the corporation wins or loses.

If the OWS really wants to change things then, as the Tea Party has done, create a specific agenda that addresses the real inequities and market dysfunction of corporate law as it applies to large corporations. Find a way to preserve the real and needed protections of the corporate structure while at the same time creating a practical market accountability for managers who exercise poor judgment. I suggest to you that the devil is in the details and that screaming "Corporations are bad" is ineffective, counter-productive and, mostly, just plain stupid.