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ATTNER: 'Skins still throwing money away

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Old 03-06-2004, 11:33 AM   #16
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Yeah, I think its just you. Its hard to argue about us giving a second rounder away, but we defintley shouldnt have gotten one for Champ. Dont even tell me the " great CB is harder to find than great RB " comment, because Cornerbacks have about 1/24th the impact on a overall season as Running backs do. In word to his contract, we have him locked up, and happy, and the contract is proboly backloaded so we can just restructure in a few years, if he dosent wanna restructure then screw him get the scissors. We need to win now. As far as that Brunell Contract, that money will never even see Brunell, hes got three years left in him then hes going to go, the only reason he got that much $ was because its spread out over all that time, and it looks like alot more than it really is. Shawn Springs sucks? How do you know? When healthy he is awsome, and there was a reason they drafted Trufant last year... because you need two corner backs on the feild, not one. Finally, Griffen is not just a " Average " player, I'm not saying hes a unbelivable player or anything, but hes a hell of a upgrade from what we have, as is Daniels. I, too, dont think our Dline work can be done, but I think its a good start. In addition, we have resigned some of hte key guys to our special teams unit, Lennie Friedman who may prove to be vital to our Oline, like last year, Kevin Mitchell who might make a run at a starting position, and we have a new punter in Tupa, and a upgraded LB in Marcus Washington. If that sucks, I dont know whats good.

Last edited by Gmanc711; 03-06-2004 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 03-06-2004, 11:42 AM   #17
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Actually Gman, it's not just him...

Originally Posted by skins009
I must be one of the few guys who thinks this is one of the worst off seasons ever. First off we gave away a high second round pick for portis when we really should have been getting a second round pick from Denver. Then we overpayed big time for him when we had all the leverage. Then Brunnel,we REALLY overpaid for a guy who is going downhill. I wouldn't have minded signing him. But not for that kind of money. Then the Shawn Springs signing, let me let all you guys on a little secret. Springs SUCKS, and we gave him 10 mill. up front. THere is a reason that Seatle drafted Marcus Trufant last year when they had huge holes on the d-line. And do you guys think we had solved are d-line problems by solving C. Griffen. There's a nother very average player. Terrible offseason. Gibbs is gonna need a GM.
I hate to say it, Skins009, but sometimes, I think you may be exactly right. If there were no salary cap, I'd say hell yes to Brunell. But the contract he got is more than I would have paid for someone approaching the twilight of his career. I can't really say I agree with his lack of mobility and leadership presence as a QB. I don't watch much Jaguars football. I'd have to pay attention them the way I pay attention to the Skins to generate an informed position. Still, we needed a quality veteran QB, and it looks like we may have one. Buy a hefty contract plus a 3rd rounder might have been a little much.

I will NEVER, EVER understand why we had to give up a second rounder IN ADDITION to Champ Bailey for Portis. Straight up would have been a little better, but really, knowing how Bailey is the corner that he is, we should have gotten a draft pick plus Portis. I'd really like to know if Denver was insistent on that issue, or if Danny and Vinny were reckless about it, and added the 2nd rounder without even facing a demand for it. You know, kind of like Shanahan getting a call from Vinny and Danny that went something like this:

Snyder and Cerrato -- "Mike, this is Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder. Listen, we're real interested in Clinton Portis -- how about entertaining Champ Bailey for a visit so maybe we can work out some sort of deal?"

Shanahan -- "Hmm, that sounds interesting, let me talk Mr. Bowlen about..."

Snyder and Cerrato (interrupting) -- "We'll throw in a second rounder for him!"

Shanahan -- "Uhh, sure! Wow, I wasn't expecting that! Send Champ on over! In fact, WE"LL book the flight for him!"

If that's the way the conversation went, then Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum are indeed running the show, and running it into the ground I might add.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:12 PM   #18
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How about we wait until this time next year to judge this offseason. We haven't even played a game yet guys, let's give Gibbs some time to pull this thing together.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:23 PM   #19
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Thumbs up

Thanks, Matty! Even Pasquerelli thinks these moves look good on paper. Let's give them a chance.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:12 PM   #20
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A chance? I agree w/ you EEich. I know we've all become cynical about flashy offseasons and DSnyder's fantasy football strategy for signing players but jebus.

I'm completely impressed with the strategy behind our offseason moves (to date). Gibbs likes depth at QB (it's his m.o.), he likes Ramsey but can use Brunell as a mentor, low-turnover style passer/field general, and tackling dummy until they can get this OLine in shape. It'll challenge Ramsey, and Gmanc is 100% right about these backloaded contracts- Brunell might see 1/2 that money if he's lucky.
Champ wanted to go. It would have been nice to swap 1 for 1 but again, i gotta agree w/ gmanc that you're talking about a getting a 22 yr old superstar who'll touch the ball 30-40 times a game, and whose contract turned out to be 5 million less and 2 years longer than the offer we made to Champ.

The staff knew they could get a decent replacement for Bailey thru FA, and they did. Springs is still young, still a badass when healthy (and he was healthy most of his career until the broken shoulder blade).

Just can't understand how anyone would be disappointed in these moves. They may not pay off in our Gibbs' 1st season, but we've upgraded QB RB and DLine already, some would argue LB as well, and filled that hole at CB. Portis Coles and Ramsey are a promising core group for our future, and w/ the #5 pick we're in perfect position to trade down and pick up 2 more DLineman, or keep it and upgrade the secondary with S.Taylor, or even grab 1 of those 3 WR's.
We've been burned badly in the past. The expectations have outweighed the results every offseason for way too long, but I'm completely geeked about Gibbs' master plan so far. This team needed a massive overhaul b/c of attitude/bad chemistry if nothing else.
but yeah- we gotta long way to go.

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Old 03-06-2004, 01:18 PM   #21
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I can see us taking taylor/winslow or trading down, but a WR would be crazy.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:20 PM   #22
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Everyone wants the skins to fail, because they just can't stand Snyder. He's viewed (not without some reason) as an arrogant, spoiled rich kid who wants to buy his way to success instead of earning his keep in the good-old American tradition of blue-collar hard work. And here comes another off-season, and Danny-boy is at it again. What, sportswriters are going to change their tune now? Why, when they sell papers by following this line. It's a good story for the otherwise hum-drum offseason.

The real question is, did the skins get quality, and did they pay the right price. Here's what they needed to upgrade, going into the offseason: Vet QB, RB, CB to replace Champ, TE, LB to replace Armstead and free up Lavar, D-linemen, saftey, center, punter.

QB: Brunell
RB: Portis
CB: Springs
TE: Rasby? Winslow?
LB: Washington
D-line: Giffen, Daniels, Udeze?, etc?
Safety: Grant? Taylor?
Center: Friedman, Beverly?
Punter: Tupa?

SO, did Danny pay too much so far? He shells out the bonus money, but some of that is just out of pocket, and he's a billionaire. If that's how he wants to spend his cash, more power to him. Brunell's deal is backloaded, and he won't get the last years of it. PLus, look at the Jets and Falcons when they lost their young QBs: disaster. That won't happen here.

Protis's deal is backloaded as well, but if he is as good as he's been so far, he'll be a great deal. Imagine if he has another 1,500 yeard season next year. What will he be worth then? More than the skins are paying him, I figure. If he's a bust, release him before the later years of the contract.

Daniels is a turd? Well, his d coach of several years in Chicago didn't think so. A versitile role player on the d-line, and an upgrade for the skins. Griffen is a bit of a gamble. BUt he's young, coachable, and ready to prove himself, I think. Once again, Danny-boy was ready to drop a fat bonus where others weren't: Griffen has potential, but he'll need good coaching to reach it. Under Fox, great, under Fasell, so-so. Oh right, we've got great coaches.

We'll see about the TE. Here they seem to be after a blocker first, hence Rasby. Is this a mistake? Winslow is a potential gamebreaker, and Gibbs and Zampesi coached his dad.

Anyone complaining AT ALL about Washington. I haven't heard it, not even Pastabelly or the cowpunks.

Saftey, Center, and Punter (and additional D-line help) are still up in the air. But despite all the whining in the press, they've STILL GOT CAP ROOM LEFT to sign quality players. Anything wrong here?

Finally (and I know, this is an endless friggin post!), Gibbs has stated that it's a priority that all his players are in MINICAMP (not just training camp!). Thus, a quick deal with Brunell and Portis (who may well have held out without a deal, creating a new controversy).

PS The second rounder for Portis was because of the cap space created/lost. Picks=cap space. We picked up space, we deal a pick. Question: were there any other BETTER deals out there for Mr. I-do-no-want-to-be-here (aka "show me the money") Bailey? The Lions wouldn't give picks, and the jets were packaging crap. This is a good deal.

Hail from Houston!
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:27 PM   #23
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great points JW

and your hatred for Dallas warms my heart.

Yeah that's what they needed. Keyshawn.
I love that Parcells wanted Brunell too. Gibbs moved so fast no one else had a chance.

And yeah, Daseal- I'd be surprised if we grabbed a WR too. Just listing all the scenarios b/c I think the staff's put themselves in a great position before the draft.

Last edited by Spearhead; 03-06-2004 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:42 PM   #24
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I had posted this on the old warpath site, but I'll post it again:

I have no beef with Snyder. There is no limit to what he will do to acquire talent for his team. Imagine if he just pocketed all the money he makes off the Redskins instead of reinvesting it in the team. I think the Redskins new strategy of poaching free agents entering their prime is a sound one. We see the Redskins as a football team, but they are first and foremost a businessl. In fact, the formal name of the Redskins as an organization is actually, "Washington Football, Inc." And as a business, they have zeroed in on the competitive advantage they have over every single other team in the NFL, which is that they are the most profitable cash-generating franchise. Because all teams share TV revenue, the only way to get a "leg up" on competing teams is to generat revenue from luxury boxes, which is unshared. And the Skins have the most of those. Because all teams have to equally comply with the salary cap for contracts, the only way to get an advantage over competing teams is to offer signing bonuses, which can be prorated over the term of a contract even if they are paid out as upfront lump sum. So it's not that Snyder and the Redskins FO think they're smarter than everyone else; it's a fact that this is an advantage the Redskins have. If they have money to use, why not use it?

The criticism of Snyder is particularly interesting in 20/20 hindsight. In Snyder's first year as owner, 1999, the Redskins made the playoffs and, in fact, were a point away from the NFC Championship. But keep in mind the Redskins finished that season 10-6 after barely beating a hapless 49ers team in overtime. Had we lost, we would have been 9-7 and hoping to catch a break. Instead, it was the first and last season under Norv that we made the playoffs and the first and last time since the magical '91 season. And that year, because the Redskins made it "over the hump" and the only thing new was Snyder, all the revisionist history was about how the success was thanks to the owner. Unlike Cooke (particulary John), the fable went, Snyder did not "tolerate mediocrity." No, unlike the stodgy and "patient" Cookes of the old money of real estate, Snyder was a product of the Internet age, so he demanded results "now". And so the story went that that "pressure" that he put on Norv and the team, is what put them over the top.

Of course, now that the Redskins are mired in a string of losing seasons (instead of squeaking into the playoffs by one game by beating the hapless 49ers in OT) all that has been turned upside down because now Snyder is a "meddler" who "interferes" and lacks a "plan". Interesting

Snyder will do everything in his power to help Gibbs win, and that's all any coach, player or fan could ask for
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Old 03-06-2004, 01:46 PM   #25
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if i were god for one day i would turn cowboys stadium in texas into the world's largest open air piss hole.i can't help but think that god looks down from heaven and thinks of that stadium as the world's largest latrine.I HATE ALL COWBOYS(excepywayne,eastwood,and matt dillion)by the way,who the hell is this attner guy?
it's me,bigredskinfan63
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always remember ladies and germs-THE COWBOYS SUCK
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Old 03-07-2004, 03:14 PM   #26
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I had no idea that there were Cowboy fans on this side of the pond.

I can only offer my sincere apologies for this embaressing oversight. We will try to round them up and put them in small dark rooms so that they can reflect on their choices.

Perhaps make them watch that godawful soap opera about oil barons on a repeated loop.

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Old 03-07-2004, 03:39 PM   #27
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Interesting Debate

Hey guys,

I posted those two articles because I had to wonder how you guys viewed Snyder's offseason strategy now we're seeing the same kind of behaviour for the second year straight. Some of your points were really interesting and I thank those who responded with serious and considered points for taking my posts in they way they were intended, i.e. as the start of an interesting debate.

Those who felt compelled to respond with childish anti-Cowboys rhetoric let your forum down in my opinion.

Personally, I go along with those who find Snyder's strategy as slightly irresponsible and I can't help feeling that the Broncos took advantage of him in the Portis-Bailey trade. The same might be said for Brunnel's agent. Still the LB Washington and the CB Butler from the Rams (if you get him) would be nice pickups.

Edit: Might have to take back what I said about Butler above, I've just seen the details of his contract offer. More than he's worth again guys.

As for those taking the, "let's wait and see" approach to the offseason signings - how do you feel Snyder did last season now that you have a chance to judge?


Last edited by CowboysUK; 03-07-2004 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 03-07-2004, 03:52 PM   #28
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It's a whole new deal with Gibbs at the helm ... Snyder is only getting the players that Gibbs wants and this will likely be the last major FA signing frenzy while JG is in charge. He's building the foundation for his team. I laugh when people say the Skins got fleeced in the Bailey/Portis deal. Watch Portis tear up the NFC for the next few years ... is there a better RB in the NFC East right now? Who do the Cowboys have? No one's going to remember the extra second rounder in a few years. Good trade for the Redskins.

Last edited by Ghost; 03-07-2004 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 03-07-2004, 04:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by CowboysUK
Personally, I go along with those who find Snyder's strategy as slightly irresponsible and I can't help feeling that the Broncos took advantage of him in the Portis-Bailey trade. The same might be said for Brunnel's agent.
Snyder, in the past, just didn't know how to run a sports franchise. He saw big names, or household names, and figured the more of them on our team, the better. He's learned through his mistakes I believe. This year, we had definite holes on offense and defense that had to be filled. Also, with Joe Gibbs returning, Gibbs wants players that are going to be "Gibbs players." Bailey didn't want to return as a Redskin, no matter the coach next year. The first excuse was, I don't want to be on a losing team, the next is, I don't want to have to play for yet another defensive coordinator. As much as I liked Bailey, and as much as I respect his playing ability, Bailey had to go, because he was not happy in Washington. I don't feel Washington got shafted in the trade for Portis though. He was clearly the best RB on the free agency market -- and that is what the Redskins needed.

As far as Mark Brunnel goes, as Gibbs himself stated; Joe likes to have the veteren presence at the QB position, whether the vet starts or not. Make no mistake about it, as long as Ramsey stays paitent, he'll remain the future of the Washington Redskins, but Ramsey is got to realize that if he's going to be brought up right and be sucessful in the NFL, then he needs to listen to Gibbs and follow what he tells him to do. Ramsey will be a better QB for it, and even if he does have to sit out a season or two, he'll be the top QB when his time comes.

As far as the comment on people here making "childish" comments here..dude what do you expect? You are a Cowboys fan. When deciding to join this Redskins forum board, you should have realized that you are not going to be positively accepted here. Especially posting negative comments about the team.
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Old 03-07-2004, 06:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by CowboysUK
Hey guys,

Those who felt compelled to respond with childish anti-Cowboys rhetoric let your forum down in my opinion.
So CowboysUK... what forum website do you call home?
We'll all come over and post worthless crap about the Cowboys' do-nothing off season and see what kind responses we get.

Last edited by EEich; 03-07-2004 at 07:12 PM.
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