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trump Inpeachment...............

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Old 01-28-2020, 11:13 AM   #391
BigHairedAristocrat
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

So... the republicans best argument is, "lets not talk about the presidents corruption. let's shift the discussion to Hunter Biden's corruption." Even in the scenario where both Joe and Hunter Biden were found guilty of incredible corruption, it would not be OK for the President to hold up approved aid to Ukraine until that evidence was produced. That is an abuse of power for personal gain plain and simple.
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:27 AM   #392
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
Look, like I said before, I kept quiet and waited for the house investigation but when the articles were draft without a crime...then I absolutely knew this entire thing was bullshit. Nancy knew she had gone too far and couldn't turn around so she had to do something.

Im not yelling, but I'm sorry, you cant circumvent the Constitution and electoral process because of partisanship. The threshold of crime was not met.
I honestly dont know enough about impeachment proceedings, I slept through Con Law I and II.

Clinton is the most recent and relevant. He wasnt impeached for any specific crime but for obstruction of justice and abuse of powers. Trump was impeached for ..... obstruction of justice and abuse of powers.

Clinton testified under oath to Ken Starr. Witnesses were called.

Trump should testify under oath and witnesses should be called.

Pelosi and the House should have issued subpoenas then went to the court to enforce those subpoenas, likely drawing out the process by a year or so. They shouldnt have expected a republican majority Senate to do additional fact finding.

Is this all a farce? Im kinda split. You cant have the POTUS with holding congress approved aid bc he wants a foreign country to announce an investigation into his rival. At the same time, it doesnt rise to the level of removing an elected president.

Hopefully Trump is out by 2020. If not, Ill put my head back in the sand for another 4 years.

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Old 01-28-2020, 11:30 AM   #393
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

Still have never heard any specifics about this corruption regarding Hunter Biden.

What specifically is he accused of doing?
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:42 PM   #394
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
So... the republicans best argument is, "lets not talk about the presidents corruption. let's shift the discussion to Hunter Biden's corruption." Even in the scenario where both Joe and Hunter Biden were found guilty of incredible corruption, it would not be OK for the President to hold up approved aid to Ukraine until that evidence was produced. That is an abuse of power for personal gain plain and simple.
Agree. What Hunter did has no bearing on the impeachment. I do think it is clever though because it does severely damage Joe's campaign which I believe is the main reason they are bringing up Hunter Biden.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:47 PM   #395
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Agree. What Hunter did has no bearing on the impeachment. I do think it is clever though because it does severely damage Joe's campaign which I believe is the main reason they are bringing up Hunter Biden.
Hunter Biden was the source of the corruption Trump sought out, correct? So if it found that indeed he was corrupt or laws were broken then vetting out corruption by the administration is justified.

So how is Hunter Biden not significant?
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:54 PM   #396
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
So... the republicans best argument is, "lets not talk about the presidents corruption. let's shift the discussion to Hunter Biden's corruption." Even in the scenario where both Joe and Hunter Biden were found guilty of incredible corruption, it would not be OK for the President to hold up approved aid to Ukraine until that evidence was produced. That is an abuse of power for personal gain plain and simple.

Give me the source where the President laid out this conditions for aid

When you do, contact Adam Scheft and Nancy P. You are walking out theories not based on the evidence.

Can you answer, why wasn't criminal charges brought in the articles?
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:06 PM   #397
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
Hunter Biden was the source of the corruption Trump sought out, correct? So if it found that indeed he was corrupt or laws were broken then vetting out corruption by the administration is justified.

So how is Hunter Biden not significant?
Did Trump say hey investigate this that would be great or did he say hey investigate this or I will withhold funds, I think that is what is on trial in the senate here not whether a president has a right to seek out corruption.

FWIW I think discussing Hunter Biden and Burisma corruption is a smart move by Republicans. I genuinely think it makes Joe un-electable.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:23 PM   #398
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Did Trump say hey investigate this that would be great or did he say hey investigate this or I will withhold funds, I think that is what is on trial in the senate here not whether a president has a right to seek out corruption.

FWIW I think discussing Hunter Biden and Burisma corruption is a smart move by Republicans. I genuinely think it makes Joe un-electable.
I really don’t want Bernie...I think Biden in general wouldn’t be bad because he is woke now, but will pivot in the general election
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:42 PM   #399
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
Hunter Biden was the source of the corruption Trump sought out, correct? So if it found that indeed he was corrupt or laws were broken then vetting out corruption by the administration is justified.

So how is Hunter Biden not significant?
What specifically did Hunter Biden do? What was the corruption?

If you say to get the prosecutor fired, that has been proven wrong. Joe, the US and international community wanted the prosecutor gone bc the prosecutor wasnt investigating and prosecuting.

Hunter Biden had nothing to do with whatever investigation was going on with Burisma. That investigation was going on before Hunter joined the board.

There is nothing linking Hunter to any corruption.

Trump just wanted Ukraine to announce they were opening an investigation into Hunter Biden for political reasons. He didnt care what for, he just wanted them to say it.

There is no there, there.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:47 PM   #400
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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What specifically did Hunter Biden do? What was the corruption?

If you say to get the prosecutor fired, that has been proven wrong. Joe, the US and international community wanted the prosecutor gone bc the prosecutor wasnt investigating and prosecuting.

Hunter Biden had nothing to do with whatever investigation was going on with Burisma. That investigation was going on before Hunter joined the board.

There is nothing linking Hunter to any corruption.

Trump just wanted Ukraine to announce they were opening an investigation into Hunter Biden for political reasons. He didnt care what for, he just wanted them to say it.

There is no there, there.
Follow the timeline I’ve posted. No Hunter Biden wasn’t cleared and if he is the source and you want to call witnesses, then have him testify.
Would u be ok with that?
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:51 PM   #401
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

Why would hunter even be on the board? This wasn’t fedex, newspaper, etc.

This was a fucking corrupt Ukraine oligarch...why was hunter there? Access politically to the US government.
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:56 PM   #402
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by SunnySide View Post
Pelosi and the House should have issued subpoenas then went to the court to enforce those subpoenas, likely drawing out the process by a year or so. They shouldnt have expected a republican majority Senate to do additional fact finding.
I agree, but they didn't exactly because no one wants this to drag out for a year in the courts... which, they wouldn't have to, if Trump were willing to cooperate like Clinton. Instead, he wants to prevent a constitutional process from being carried out b refusing to cooperate with the investigation. Which an innocent person would have no reason to do.

Still, when it all plays out, I think the Democrats may wish they have taken this approach.

But, as Jim Zorn once said, Hindsights always 50/50
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:01 PM   #403
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
Why would hunter even be on the board? This wasn’t fedex, newspaper, etc.

This was a fucking corrupt Ukraine oligarch...why was hunter there? Access politically to the US government.
So, you're saying that, if one corrupt president suspects that his opponents son was guilty of corruption, he has a right to break the law to try and expose his opponent?

That's like getting arrested for robbing a bank and then arguing that it wasn't a crime because I was just trying to get back the fees i believed they illegally charged my account. Even if it were proven that I was right, and they did charge me illegal fees, it wouldn't justify my, more serious, criminal act.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:08 PM   #404
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

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Originally Posted by Chico23231 View Post
Give me the source where the President laid out this conditions for aid

When you do, contact Adam Scheft and Nancy P. You are walking out theories not based on the evidence.

Can you answer, why wasn't criminal charges brought in the articles?
This is exactly what is supported by a lot of "second hand" evidence. Bolton is claiming he has first hand knowledge of this, which is why he needs to testify. Then, the Senate can determine whether he is telling the Truth.

If Trump is innocent of these accusations, he can produce documents to prove so. Instead, he's refused to cooperate and even bragged about the fact that he has the documents and isn't sharing them. Innocent men have nothing to hide. Only guilty people do.

The best thing for the American people is for ALL evidence to be provided, and ALL relevant witnesses to testify. Then, there will be two outcomes:

1) The President will be completely exonerated and the Democrats will have been proven to have engaged in an awful, damaging and divisive witch-hunt.
2) The President will be found guilty, and Republicans will have to decide whether or not to uphold their oath to the constitution or to be cowards.

In the end, the American people would know the truth about its politicians and make INFORMED decisions in upcoming elections.

Instead, what will happen is the full truth will never come out. It will just be a he-said/she-said situation and Americans on both sides will remain in whatever camps they already are, with both sides continuing to despise the other for their perceptions about how all of this played out. We won't learn anything. We won't move on. The country will continue to remain divided.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:12 PM   #405
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Re: trump Inpeachment...............

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
This is exactly what is supported by a lot of "second hand" evidence. Bolton is claiming he has first hand knowledge of this, which is why he needs to testify. Then, the Senate can determine whether he is telling the Truth.

If Trump is innocent of these accusations, he can produce documents to prove so. Instead, he's refused to cooperate and even bragged about the fact that he has the documents and isn't sharing them. Innocent men have nothing to hide. Only guilty people do.

The best thing for the American people is for ALL evidence to be provided, and ALL relevant witnesses to testify. Then, there will be two outcomes:

1) The President will be completely exonerated and the Democrats will have been proven to have engaged in an awful, damaging and divisive witch-hunt.
2) The President will be found guilty, and Republicans will have to decide whether or not to uphold their oath to the constitution or to be cowards.

In the end, the American people would know the truth about its politicians and make INFORMED decisions in upcoming elections.
IF X IS INNOCENT HE MUST PROVE IT

the law of the land?

I thought it was - IF THE STATE BELIEVES X IS GUILTY THE BURDEN LIES ON THEM TO PROVE IT. The STATE could have called witnesses and gotten their testimony into the legal record. They could have, as is done in EVERY court in the land, issued subpoenas, and defend the subpoenas validity in front of the court, and then, once validated, brought the case to trial.

Arguments are so out of whack with our ideal of justice, all because one side hates the other, AND the other is an idiot.
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