Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;365591]I really don't know, I can't find any detailed stat breakdowns of his college career.[/quote]Neither can I.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;365595]Neither can I.[/quote]

I'd be interested to see if there's any correlation between his college and pro career 4th qtr numbers.

If anyone can find something let us know.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;365598]I'd be interested to see if there's any correlation between his college and pro career 4th qtr numbers.

If anyone can find something let us know.[/quote]

Well we know for sure he dominated the 4th quarter of the Rose Bowl game vs SC.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;365476]It will be interesting to see how they do without him, if he can't play due to his injury.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree...it's a shame they have Kerry Collins in there. If they had a decent QB as a back up then there could be a QB controversy.
How long will VY be out?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=TheBigD;365512]What I can't believe is the fact that you dedicate a whole thread trying to convince people here that Vince is "overrated." Why is it important to you that we think the same way you do? What is wrong with some of believing that he is a decent QB? Oh no, we are all ignorants and blind because we refuse to say Vince sucks.

Take it easy dude, people have different opinions. Yes what you presented were facts, but who cares about those numbers if the TEAM is winning. Poeple enjoyed watching Vick even if the Falcons lost.

Now, I am with you that his numbers don't look good. But if he wins a Super Bowl, don't you think he would probably get in to HOF? (take it easy I don't want you to have a heart-attack).[/QUOTE]

It's to discuss something different. We spew the same stuff over and over and over on this site, talking about Vince Young is something different. The fact that I believe that VY is overrated is just an added incentive.

You tell me to take it easy...I am. I find these kinds of threads to be fun. Have I attacked someone and not noticed or something? Not sure why you are telling me to take it easy. But see you said it again, about the TEAM winning. 11-9 since VY's arrival is hardly a team that should be considered winning.

There is no way he will ever win a SB as a starting QB. Maybe I shouldn't take such a firm stand, but I truely doubt he will do what it takes to be a great QB in this league. I am unsure of how you can make the connection between winning a super bowl and making the Hall. So will Dilfer / Brad Johnson / Mark Rypien make the Hall? Vince Young will have to completely change his game to ever be considered.

I just find it really funny that people are bedazzled by Young's ability to run, so much so they ignore his glaring shortcomings in the pocket. He's Vick part 2. (just a nicer version)
Look at Vick's stats...in 01 his team went 7-9 (granted he didn't have a lot of playing time in most of the games that year so he wasn't much of a factor), in 02 his team went 9-6-1, in 03 his team had 5 wins total, but he only played in 5 games (weeks 13-17) and went 3-2 in that span. 04 the Falcons under Vick went 11-5. So I guess all Vick does is win too. (when he's not in jail). The similarities are quite similar, yet most think Vick is a poor QB. Vick puts up better passing numbers and rushing numbers than VY, so why is everyone so eager to jump on VY's bandwagon, but jumped off Vick's bandwagon (before he was sent to jail anyway)?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;365590]I think that's a very reasonable guess.

There's a lot of conflicting evidence on Young to whether he will be great or not, but I'll admit it's hard to not be impressed with his intangibles thus far. Of course, intangibles don't get you anywhere if you can't throw the football, but they do tend to be telling of a guy's future success.

For now, let's just say I'm far more confident Campbell will be great than I am that Young will ever be great.[/QUOTE]

You have been making compelling arguements and are on the money with a lot of the comments.
I would like to know this, has there ever been a QB that flat out sucked his first 3 quarters and played well in the 4th before? If so who? Young's career rating is in the toilet, which means his ratings for the first 3 quarters is beyond terrible since his 4th quarter is so high. To me, it's a sign he will fall in the 4th in the future, not all of sudden do well through the rest of the game. His stats are too overwhelmingly bad to suggest otherwise. So I ask, are there any QB's that have mirrored this? Or are we in uncharted territories with Young?

About Campbell...you are DEAD on! I have a lot of confidence in Campbell. He has a strong arm, good mechanics, good release, shows spurts of great accuracy and nice touch, and he has the ability to run if need be, and he has the head for the game. He has it all if you ask me, he just needs more time under center. I already feel Campbell is better than Young.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

john elway was a 4th quarter man, his game in the superbowl win #2 sucked ass until that last amazing drive.........also....i recall vince young beating our asses in the second half last year. Can't remember JC or leinart doing that to anyone yet

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Actually Young doesn't suck quarters 1-3. He starts off well, slumps, then gets hot.

His QB ratings per quarter in 2007 breaks down like this:

1: 86.0
2: 50.9
3: 43.0
4: 90.9

His completion % per quarter:

1: 73.5%
2: 61.1%
3: 47.6%
4: 69.6%

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Just for kicks here's Campbell's numbers in comparison:

QB rating per quarter:

1: 64.9
2: 111.4
3: 74.6
4: 68.3

Completion % per quarter:

1: 53.8
2: 70.7
3: 54.5
4: 51.4

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;365650]Actually Young doesn't suck quarters 1-3. He starts off well, slumps, then gets hot.

His QB ratings per quarter in 2007 breaks down like this:

1: 86.0
2: 50.9
3: 43.0
4: 90.9

His completion % per quarter:

1: 73.5%
2: 61.1%
3: 47.6%
4: 69.6%[/QUOTE]

Good post. I think we were all going off the comments about Young having a 100+ rating in the 4th quarter, which he doesn't. However, this is just 07 stats, not career. Keep in mind his career comp % is 54.6%.

Also, while he does have a 64% comp% this year, he has one of the lowest y/a in the league, meaning he's pulling a Brunell and doing mainly short passes.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;365647]john elway was a 4th quarter man, his game in the superbowl win #2 sucked ass until that last amazing drive.........also....i recall vince young beating our asses in the second half last year. Can't remember JC or leinart doing that to anyone yet[/quote]But isn't Elway someone who was always great? If not, give evidence that suggests he was not a great player in quarters 1-3.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=jsarno;365668]Good post. I think we were all going off the comments about Young having a 100+ rating in the 4th quarter, which he doesn't. However, this is just 07 stats, not career. Keep in mind his career comp % is 54.6%.

Also, while he does have a 64% comp% this year, he has one of the lowest y/a in the league, meaning he's pulling a Brunell and doing mainly short passes.[/quote]Except that Brunell's 2006 Y/A is more than a half yard better than Young's 2007.

He's actually been worse than 2006 Brunell.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

By the way I should cite where I'm getting these numbers from

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/vinceyoung/situationalstats?id=YOU617196]Vince Young: Situational Stats[/url]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/jasoncampbell/situationalstats?id=CAM375235]Jason Campbell: Situational Stats[/url]

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;365698]But isn't Elway someone who was always great? If not, give evidence that suggests he was not a great player in quarters 1-3.[/QUOTE]

Good point...also, he was known as a 4th quarter comeback player. If he was down in the 4th, you knew he was going to come back to beat you. Young doesn't have that rep and I doubt he has a whole lot of those to his name. (of course he's young so time will tell)

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;365707]By the way I should cite where I'm getting these numbers from

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/vinceyoung/situationalstats?id=YOU617196"]Vince Young: Situational Stats[/URL]

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/jasoncampbell/situationalstats?id=CAM375235"]Jason Campbell: Situational Stats[/URL][/quote]

A couple of things that bother me when looking at Campbell's stats:

-His second half rating is only 71.3, compared to 88.8 in the first half
-Also, in close games (margin of 0-7pts), his rating is only 68.6.
-In the 4th quarter he's only got a 68.3 rating
-In the 4th quarter with a lead of 7 or less it's only 59.9

Now granted we've only played 5 games and this isn't really an accurate measuring stick yet, but I don't like those numbers.

As far as VY is concerned, I think his rookie of the year award was deserving, and he led the Titans to a great second half last year. He's a winner and a leader, and I'm definitely not read to call him overrated.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;365699]Except that Brunell's 2006 Y/A is more than a half yard better than Young's 2007.

He's actually been worse than 2006 Brunell.[/QUOTE]

That's actually funny. I didn't look those stats up to make that connection, and we all we PISSED at Brunell for doing so poorly last year too.

Good post.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;365719]A couple of things that bother me when looking at Campbell's stats:

-His second half rating is only 71.3, compared to 88.8 in the first half
-Also, in close games (margin of 0-7pts), his rating is only 68.6.
-In the 4th quarter he's only got a 68.3 rating
-In the 4th quarter with a lead of 7 or less it's only 59.9

Now granted we've only played 5 games and this isn't really an accurate measuring stick yet, but I don't like those numbers.
[/QUOTE]

Those are valid concerns, but you need to remember that Gibbs has taken the control out of Campbell's hands in those situations (for the most part). He's getting more and more confidence with the coaching staff, and as that happens, he will no longer HAVE to throw 3rd and longs most of the time in the 4th, he'll be getting chances to throw on 1st and 2nd downs too. I think those numbers are just too incomplete for him at this point because up until VERY recently he has not been the man Gibbs has wanted with the ball come the end of the game.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=jsarno;365720]That's actually funny. I didn't look those stats up to make that connection, and we all we PISSED at Brunell for doing so poorly last year too.

Good post.[/quote]Course if Brunell had the ability to run like Young can, I'm not sure we'd be having these types of memories, lol.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=jsarno;365725]Those are valid concerns, but you need to remember that Gibbs has taken the control out of Campbell's hands in those situations (for the most part). He's getting more and more confidence with the coaching staff, and as that happens, he will no longer HAVE to throw 3rd and longs most of the time in the 4th, he'll be getting chances to throw on 1st and 2nd downs too. I think those numbers are just too incomplete for him at this point because up until VERY recently he has not been the man Gibbs has wanted with the ball come the end of the game.[/quote]

I agree completely. Notice my disclaimer about only playing 5 games. Also, in a post I just made in the Jason "Red Zone" Cambpell thread, I also pointed out how he's gaining confidence in the eyes of the coaches. I was just saying that as of now, those #'s don't look too great.

Sometimes statistics are overrated, sometimes they aren't.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=GMScud;365728]I agree completely. Notice my disclaimer about only playing 5 games. Also, in a post I just made in the Jason "Red Zone" Cambpell thread, I also pointed out how he's gaining confidence in the eyes of the coaches. I was just saying that as of now, those #'s don't look too great.

Sometimes statistics are overrated, sometimes they aren't.[/quote]
The shorter the data, the more useless the statistics are.

As far as JC's stats. This is a small window... I'd be curious to see a nice graph showing his progress. Maybe I'll get bored and make one...

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;365707]By the way I should cite where I'm getting these numbers from

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/vinceyoung/situationalstats?id=YOU617196]Vince Young: Situational Stats[/url]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/jasoncampbell/situationalstats?id=CAM375235]Jason Campbell: Situational Stats[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the links.
Did you check out his 2006 numbers? [url=http://www.nfl.com/players/vinceyoung/situationalstats?id=YOU617196&season=2006]Vince Young: Situational Stats[/url]
He had only a 70.5 rating in the 4th last year.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;365728]I agree completely. Notice my disclaimer about only playing 5 games. Also, in a post I just made in the Jason "Red Zone" Cambpell thread, I also pointed out how he's gaining confidence in the eyes of the coaches. I was just saying that as of now, those #'s don't look too great.

Sometimes statistics are overrated, sometimes they aren't.[/QUOTE]

Very true. We agree.

Like Rob said, The shorter the data, the more inconsistant the stats.

Look at Young. It was thought that he had a high 4th quarter rating, but in fact, it's very low. Sure it's 90.9 during the last 5 games, but the previous 15 it's 70.5. That would average out to be somewhere around 75.6 over his career. Not impressive at all.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;365757]Very true. We agree.

Like Rob said, The shorter the data, the more inconsistant the stats.

Look at Young. It was thought that he had a high 4th quarter rating, but in fact, it's very low. Sure it's 90.9 during the last 5 games, but the previous 15 it's 70.5. That would average out to be somewhere around 75.6 over his career. Not impressive at all.[/QUOTE]

But I think the point (or a point) to be taken from that is that he's showing improvement in that category. Which is what you want to see from a young QB

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;365773]But I think the point (or a point) to be taken from that is that he's showing improvement in that category. Which is what you want to see from a young QB[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that is very true. I'm an advocate of the comp% stat, and he has improved dramatically there.
However, while he's gone up in certain catagories, he's gone down in several as well.

If he had one bad game in the 4th...say he throws two int's next week in the 4th and ends up with a 35 rating, that would drop his rating to around 80 if not worse in the 4th. So while he is showing a temporary improvement in a couple catagories, his inconsistancies for his career might show that it's a fluke. Time will tell. But you are correct that he is showing improvement in certain catagories right now.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;364940]I understand that facts are for losers and emotions are wayyyy cooler and allow one to be blissfully ignorant about football, but I tend to get edgy when people ignore facts and try to make "holier than thou" arguments. Those pretty much suck.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

On a different note, I tried to give GTripp reputation points on this post but it told me that I had to "spread it around before giving more points to GTripp."

Little did I know that apparently I have been whoring out my reputation points to GTripp far more than I originally thought.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

QBs are always the quickest to get over or under rated...they simply need more time..

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=BrunellMVP?;365797]QBs are always the quickest to get over or under rated...they simply need more time..[/QUOTE]

I do agree with that.

To be honest, I hope VY proves me wrong. He's a good guy, and he deserves success.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;364988]
Nothing you said is fundamentally wrong, per say, but I believe it reflects on a very narrow [B]persepcion[/B] of the game. I have often .....
[/quote]

LOL...man it took me some time to figure out what you were trying to say there. Please don't think I am insulting you or something.

Now, about stats and since you say you can't stand when people ignore stats and get "edgy". How come you and Jsarno tend to omit or minimize the importance of the most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS? You said Leinart had a better rookie year than Young, says who? You are saying that based on the fact that Leinart had better passing numbers because he had Boldin and Fitzgerald where Young had, at best, a banged up Drew Bennett. Young had more wins last year than Leinart. That is what I, and probably DefenseWins, think is what matters. Last time I checked, they don't award the SB to the the team whose players got the best stats but the team that has the most wins in the playoffs.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=TheBigD;365813]LOL...man it took me some time to figure out what you were trying to say there. Please don't think I am insulting you or something.

Now, about stats and since you say you can't stand when people ignore stats and get "edgy". How come you and Jsarno tend to omit or minimize the importance of the most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS? You said Leinart had a better rookie year than Young, says who? You are saying that based on the fact that Leinart had better passing numbers because he had Boldin and Fitzgerald where Young had, at best, a banged up Drew Bennett. Young had more wins last year than Leinart. That is what I, and probably DefenseWins, think is what matters. Last time I checked, they don't award the SB to the the team whose players got the best stats but the team that has the most wins in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

This wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to jump in anyway since...well, because I can.

The original discussion was about Vince Young as an individual QB and whether he is overrated as a QB or not. Consequently it's only fair to compare Young to other QBs in similar situations. Typically this is done with stats.

Yes, the win-loss record is an important stat. It's also a broad, overarching team stat. It encompasses an almost infinite number of factors and data and consequently is not particularly useful when analyzing an individual player. Yes, when it comes to the Super Bowl it's the only stat that matters, but arguing that the only stat of Vince Young that matters, as an individual QB, is his teams win-loss record is ridiculous oversimplification.

This particular discussion is about Vince Young as a player. We're fortunate to have the technology available to us to look up almost any stat we could possibly want on a player and use that as support for the various arguments we want to make. Ignoring all of that and reducing an analysis of a player to his team's win-loss record is intellectually ignorant and a gross oversimplification.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=TheBigD;365813]LOL...man it took me some time to figure out what you were trying to say there. Please don't think I am insulting you or something.

Now, about stats and since you say you can't stand when people ignore stats and get "edgy". How come you and Jsarno tend to omit or minimize the importance of the most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS? You said Leinart had a better rookie year than Young, says who? You are saying that based on the fact that Leinart had better passing numbers because he had Boldin and Fitzgerald where Young had, at best, a banged up Drew Bennett. Young had more wins last year than Leinart. That is what I, and probably DefenseWins, think is what matters. Last time I checked, they don't award the SB to the the team whose players got the best stats but the team that has the most wins in the playoffs.[/quote]I honestly tried to respell 'perception' over and over again, and no matter what I tried, it looked even worse than the last time. I tend to be a pretty decent speller, and I don't know what hit me.

Wins are a great stat for answering a certain kind of question: something like: "who has won the most games?" Well, thats not a debate worth having since you can look the answer up online, someone is right, and then it's over.

That's why you never get that question on a fourm. So instead you get questions like "is Vince Young overrated" in which case wins are at best a stat that can support a sound argument, not actually make one.

Judging a QB by how many games he has won is no different than judging a baseball pitcher by how many games he has won. It sounds nice in passing conversation, but doesn't really tell you anything about the player.

Thus it doesn't really contribute to the "is Vince Young overrated" discussion. So when you say that jsarno is being anal because you are entitled to your opinion, you really arent providing an opinion really. You are drawing a conclusion prematurely from incredibly insignificant evidence.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of equally insignificant stats out there that people will use to argue that Young is playing awful, but a few of the key critical ones do support jsarno's argument.

So if you want to support your opinion, you'd have to provide some reasoning that the numbers presented are not an adequate predictor of Vince Young's future. And there are good reasons out there, as Matty and Smootsmack (among others) have definately brought up reasons that jsarno could be a bit off in his analysis.

Just be warned that saying that a guy wins more really doesn't answer the question "is player x overrated?"



Re: Leinart: His college career on the whole was more prolific (and more importantly, longer) than Young's and his passing numbers were significantly better as a rookie which is a lot of reason to think he will be better than Young. Your argument about him having better weapons is something I would probably have to open up a whole new thread to respond to about the effect of "weapons" on a QBs numbers, but here's the simple version: Good QBs will produce close to their expected level in numbers regardless of the talent they have surrounding them. If Young is better than Leinart, by the end of his career, his numbers will reflect that regardless of who he has helping him. If they turn out to be very, very close, then the argument that one guy had more help carries a lot of weight.

I know it wasn't even a whole year, but the difference between Young and Leinart in 2006 was quite the chasm. I do expect that trend to continue once Leinart gets healthy.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

One such pro Young argument could be: "He's the most dynamic runner since Vick, and so far the objective evidence shows that he is bound to be a much better passer than Vick ever was."

Of course, I have a bunch of reasons why I [I][B]personally[/B][/I] don't think this makes Young a better quarterback, but this is a much better argument than "he just wins" when trying to decide if a guy is overrated or not.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;365825]

Just be warned that saying that a guy wins more really doesn't answer the question "is player x overrated?"[/quote]

you are absolutely right. Wins doesn't answer that question. This whole thing is very subjective. I believe we in general label people to be overrated when someone gets more credit than they deserve. Who give people credit, and who exactly knows how much of it they actually deserve. Look, Palmer is not getting much attention in the media right now, why? Because his team is losing. Brady did not get this much attention last year, and he is getting all the media to talk about him and his bastard kids more than they talk about Matt Schaub, for instance, because his team is winning. Yes, the media give Young lots of credit for the wins that his WHOLE team is earning. But that has been the case with every QB. Even though Vick's receivers couldn't catch the ball at all, he used to get blamed all the time.

The Problem here is that the media is "making you believe" that he is like superman, and YOU can't see that. I say YOU because I believe that many Titans fans would gladly tell you that he has shown THEM enough to make them believe he is really really good.
[quote] Re: Leinart: His college career on the whole was more prolific (and more importantly, longer) than Young's and his passing numbers were significantly better as a rookie which is a lot of reason to think he will be better than Young. Your argument about him having better weapons is something I would probably have to open up a whole new thread to respond to about the effect of "weapons" on a QBs numbers, but here's the simple version: Good QBs will produce close to their expected level in numbers regardless of the talent they have surrounding them. If Young is better than Leinart, by the end of his career, his numbers will reflect that regardless of who he has helping him. If they turn out to be very, very close, then the argument that one guy had more help carries a lot of weight.[/quote]Again, this depends on who and how you look at it. I look at this way. USC usually has better talent all around. Leinart played in Pac10, pretty weak when he was there, and Young in Big 12. We can go on and on about his, but when push came to shove, Leinart, White and Bush together could not beat Young. That is a head to head match up, and Young won it.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=TheBigD;365885]you are absolutely right. Wins doesn't answer that question. This whole thing is very subjective. I believe we in general label people to be overrated when someone gets more credit than they deserve. Who give people credit, and who exactly knows how much of it they actually deserve. Look, Palmer is not getting much attention in the media right now, why? Because his team is losing. Brady did not get this much attention last year, and he is getting all the media to talk about him and his bastard kids more than they talk about Matt Schaub, for instance, because his team is winning. Yes, the media give Young lots of credit for the wins that his WHOLE team is earning. But that has been the case with every QB. Even though Vick's receivers couldn't catch the ball at all, he used to get blamed all the time.

The Problem here is that the media is "making you believe" that he is like superman, and YOU can't see that. I say YOU because I believe that many Titans fans would gladly tell you that he has shown THEM enough to make them believe he is really really good.[/quote]The only real subjective part of it is what you believe Young is "rated" as. We all have the same evidence on the guy, and jsarno's question asked if the general perception of the player exceeded his production by a significant amount, or not.

Young's production isn't anything special, yet the media tends to perceive him as a special player. Thus, I would say by definition he is overrated.

Of course, if you are surrounded by a group of Young haters who despise the guy, you could point to his 64% completion as being nothing to spit on. In this case, he's not overrated because the perception is that he isn't good.

I tend to use the general media perception as a measuring stick for a player being over or underrated. That much is completely subjective. Young's performance is quite objective. All measures of production are to a degree, imperfect, but certain rate stats get pretty darn close.

The Titans fans are privy to the exact same evidence you and I am.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=TheBigD;365813]LOL...man it took me some time to figure out what you were trying to say there. Please don't think I am insulting you or something.

Now, about stats and since you say you can't stand when people ignore stats and get "edgy". [b]How come you and Jsarno tend to omit or minimize the importance of the most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS?[/b] You said Leinart had a better rookie year than Young, says who? You are saying that based on the fact that Leinart had better passing numbers because he had Boldin and Fitzgerald where Young had, at best, a banged up Drew Bennett. Young had more wins last year than Leinart. That is what I, and probably DefenseWins, think is what matters. Last time I checked, they don't award the SB to the the team whose players got the best stats but the team that has the most wins in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

OK, I said this a couple times already, but you have missed it apparently, so I'll say it again. Young is only 11-9!!!! No playoff appearances. I think you are overvalueing that stat just a tad aren't you? You are ignoring EVERY stat but saying that someone barely over .500 and no playoff appearances is a winner. HUH?
I got two words for you...REX GROSSMAN!

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I looked a little deeper on Grossman (since Big D thinks the best stat is wins).
In 03, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 04, he played in 3 games, 1-2.
In 05, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 06, he played in 16 games, 13-3.
In 07, he played in 3 games, 1-2.

That's a total of 19-7 AND a Super Bowl appearance.

You said: [i]most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS?[/i]
Hmmm, Grossman, 19-7, VY 11-9.

Still think we should ignore all the other stats?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I pointed this out earlier. One QB will put the "wins are most important" to rest. Trent Dilfer.

The year he won the Super bowl, the biggest trophy for any QB to get, he was mediocre at best. He won the big game, and yet... here are his stats...


134 for 226 which is a 59.3% completion percentage.
12TD and 11 INT. Not spectacular. To top it off, his super bowl season he managed to compile an unimpressive 76.6 QB rating. Seriously. Let's be rational here.

For a QB. It's not about wins. It's honestly about how you win. VY has shown promise, and has succeeded in clutch situations. I think he'll develop into a very good QB, but statistically so far, he's much less than average. I love the debate, but let's not lose our heads here.

For the record. Mr. Dilfer's QB rating over his career is 70.8

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=jsarno;365909]I looked a little deeper on Grossman (since Big D thinks the best stat is wins).
In 03, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 04, he played in 3 games, 1-2.
In 05, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 06, he played in 16 games, 13-3.
In 07, he played in 3 games, 1-2.

That's a total of 19-7 AND a Super Bowl appearance.

You said: [I]most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS?[/I]
Hmmm, Grossman, 19-7, VY 11-9.

Still think we should ignore all the other stats?[/quote]

Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=TheBigD;365985]Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?[/quote]


Hester didnt get there until 2006. But the Defense was alot of it.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=TheBigD;365985]Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?[/quote]I think that's the point he was trying to get across to you.

It's the same deal in Tennessee, except the defense and special teams weren't nearly as dominant as the Bears last year, so they won 8 games instead of 13.

Tennessee has an outstanding defensive unit this year. Vince is playing better, but still not good. They are a top 12 NFL team right now and that's a good place to be.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;366014]I think that's the point he was trying to get across to you.

It's the same deal in Tennessee, except the defense and special teams weren't nearly as dominant as the Bears last year, so they won 8 games instead of 13.

Tennessee has an outstanding defensive unit this year. Vince is playing better, but still not good. They are a top 12 NFL team right now and that's a good place to be.[/quote]OK, tell me this, why wasn't Grossman benched last year? His stats were horrendous last year (one game he had a QB rating of less than 1) and still played in the SB. If the team wins, the QB the coach, the whole organization looks good, and not many care about stats. Stats matter a lot more when the team is losing.