Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=TheBigD;366018]OK, tell me this, why wasn't Grossman benched last year? His stats were horrendous last year (one game he had a QB rating of less than 1) and still played in the SB. If the team wins, the QB the coach, the whole organization looks good, and not many care about stats. Stats matter a lot more when the team is losing.[/quote]You're seeing the reason Grossman wasn't benched last year. Their names are "Griese" and "Orton" respectively.

If a team needs to win with a weak QB, you might as well do it with the one who has the future ahead of him, not the veteran who has sucked up the joint since his career began.

Grossman was the best option for the time, and probably still is all things considered. Now that the Bears don't have a top defense anymore, they aren't winning anymore.

I'm not even sure what you are saying anymore. Are you saying Grossman shouldn't have been benched simply because he was winning? Are you saying that he should of because he was sucking, but not because of his stats...somehow? Or is this about how everything is subjective and we don't know anymore about Grossman now than we ever did, and he only got benched because he wasn't winning?

Your argument is very confusing.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;366032]
I'm not even sure what you are saying anymore. Are you saying Grossman shouldn't have been benched simply because he was winning? Are you saying that he should of because he was sucking, but not because of his stats...somehow? Or is this about how everything is subjective and we don't know anymore about Grossman now than we ever did, and he only got benched because he wasn't winning?

Your argument is very confusing.[/quote]LOL, I did confuse myself a bit too.

Yes, what I was trying to say is that Grossman should have been benched if stats are that important. The media, the fans, and the Bears organization could care less about Grossman's individual stats. When they were winning, you heard it many times, "Rex is our starter." Once the Bears started losing, and it could be more because of their D, he HAD TO be benched. What does that tell you? Isn't everyone crazy about WINs and not stats?

BTW, I thought they should have stuck with Orton, I liked watching him play when he played for Purdue and thought he had a better chance of developing than Rex.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=TheBigD;366036]LOL, I did confuse myself a bit too.

Yes, what I was trying to say is that Grossman should have been benched if stats are that important. The media, the fans, and the Bears organization could care less about Grossman's individual stats. When they were winning, you heard it many times, "Rex is our starter." Once the Bears started losing, and it could be more because of their D, he HAD TO be benched. What does that tell you? Isn't everyone crazy about WINs and not stats?

BTW, I thought they should have stuck with Orton, I liked watching him play when he played for Purdue and thought he had a better chance of developing than Rex.[/quote]Yeah, winning is pretty important from an emotional standpoint. Ideally, it should not be, but in reality it certainly is.

Still, if there was a better option, Rex would have been benched last year. Orton was horrible as a rookie, and Griese, save 2004, has been pretty horrific for many seasons.

I don't really look at it as if the Bears waited to start losing to pull Grossman. I see it more as that they were hoping he would progress and become a franchise quarterback. Once they had benched him, it was pretty clear they no longer would value him as their QB of the future. Thing is, you don't want to bench him only to cut him, and have him be successful elsewhere.

So they waited a bit into this season to see what kind of progress he had made in the offseason. When your guys made him look as bad as he did, it became apparent that he was now in his 5th year in the NFL, and still wasn't very good. Now with any reasonable hope of having a decent player out the window, the Bears felt justified in making a change.

At this point, I'd like to see Orton also. He's going to have progressed from his 2005 disaster, and if you have a player in him, now would be the time to find out. Griese isn't taking them anywhere with a mediocre defense.

The Bears could be back and dominant as soon as next season, but they have to get the OL shored up and get a QB in there who they trust, and chances are neither is on the roster right now.

I don't think it was a deal of not caring about his performance. You don't bench a guy with a career winning percentage around .700 for starting 1-2 unless he was hurting his team with his play. Grossman never really proved good value for a first round pick at any point in his career, and that's why he got the quick hook this season. Not because he began 1-2.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;366050]
[B]I [/B]don't really look at it as if the Bears waited to start losing to pull Grossman. I see it more as that they were hoping he would progress and become a franchise quarterback. Once they had benched him, it was pretty clear they no longer would value him as their QB of the future. Thing is, you don't want to bench him only to cut him, and have him be successful elsewhere.[/quote]
Exactly, that is how YOU look at it.

Let's assume Grossman had won 3 games, even with his horrible stats, do you think Greise would have taken a snap in a real game? No chance!

Put it this way, if I told you that if JC had 3 more INT and two more fumbles, the Skins would have won the game in GB, whould you have have taken that over a loss?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

JOHN ELWAY has a career passer rating of 79. And 47 of his 148 wins were 4th quarter comeback drives.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=TheBigD;365985]Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?[/QUOTE]

Just wanted to point out GTripp did a pretty good job of mirroring my sentiments, so to not duplicate ideas or opinions, I will go down a different road here.

This is the EXACT reason VY is overrated. Grossman put up better numbers accross the board for his career, yet he never got any respect even when he took his team to the super bowl. Vince Young on the other hand is considered to be the future and has been exhaulted by the media. So you need to ask yourself...why? Why is Grossman hated while Young is exhaulted? What is the differences in their games? There is only one glaring reason, and that's one QB can run and the other can't. If Young couldn't run, where do you think he'd be right now? The fact that Young can run (and run well) is the reason why people are blinded into thinking he's a good QB.
There have been many "scrambling" QB's that have come into this league, not a single one was successful until they learned that pocket passing was a priority. McNabb, Culpepper, Steve Young and even Campbell to name a few are those that figured it out. Kordell Stewart, Mike Vick, and right now Vince Young, haven't. You don't need an all around athlete to succeed at QB (see Manning, Brady, Montana, Marino etc) you need someone that trusts his pocket and works on his throwing ability.
I said it before, and I'll say it again, VY will never win anything significant until he learns to run as a LAST RESORT, not option 1, 2, 3, or 4.
AGain, I think he's a good kid, I wish him success, and I hope he developes into a good overall QB, but right now, he's not going down the right road.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

For the record, Griese is better than Grossman.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

for the record.........McNabb is a scrambling QB that made it to the Superbowl, he leaves the pocket A LOT, plus Kordel took the steelers far that one year. And what about flutie magic????????????JK

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=The Zimmermans;366079]for the record.........McNabb is a scrambling QB that made it to the Superbowl, he leaves the pocket A LOT, plus Kordel took the steelers far that one year. And what about flutie magic????????????JK[/QUOTE]

If you look at his stats, he didn't make it to the super bowl until he stopped running first. In 04, 41 rushes for 220 yards, which were the lowest of his career at that point. That's not a scrambling qb AT ALL. He did have 469 passing attempts, 3875 yards, 31tds, and only 8 ints, with an 8.3 Y/A though.

Kordel NEVER led any team. He rode others coat tails.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

McNabb was better when he scrambled....he was so difficult to stop... the only reason he didnt make the superbowl the first two years in the NFC championship was good oponents in Carolina and Tampa, Atlanta was horrible.....so eagles made it by default....I blame the receivers in regards to McNabb never winning a superbowl, not his scrambling habits, we beat mcnabb this year cause he couldnt move

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;366131]McNabb was better when he scrambled....he was so difficult to stop... the only reason he didnt make the superbowl the first two years in the NFC championship was good oponents in Carolina and Tampa, Atlanta was horrible.....so eagles made it by default....I blame the receivers in regards to McNabb never winning a superbowl, not his scrambling habits, we beat mcnabb this year cause he couldnt move[/quote]
Also, he didn't have to scramble as much in 04 the year they made it to the SB. The reason...81.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

81 didnt play in the NFC champ........

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;366135]81 didnt play in the NFC champ........[/quote]

I think you got it wrong. I was saying the reason he didn't scramble as much in 2004 was TO. He was throwing more and winning more games without scrambling.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

the reason TO had a huge season was mcnabb's mobility and ability to give TO time to get open deep.....pocket passing in DAllas has slowed TO's numbers....he's much better on deep balls when the QB gives him time

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=The Zimmermans;366131]McNabb was better when he scrambled....he was so difficult to stop... the only reason he didnt make the superbowl the first two years in the NFC championship was good oponents in Carolina and Tampa, Atlanta was horrible.....so eagles made it by default....I blame the receivers in regards to McNabb never winning a superbowl, not his scrambling habits, we beat mcnabb this year cause he couldnt move[/QUOTE]

That is true...but you have to acknowledge the fact that he got better and better in the pocket every year.
Look at his 2002 stats, he was on pace for a then career high 3662 passing yards, a then career high 27 tds, and a then career high 58.4% comp%.
Those aer numbers that VY only has wet dreams about.
McNabb's second season is something that VY would have wet dreams about...3365 passing yards and 21 tds with a 58% comp %.
McNabb understood he needed to develope his passing skills over his running skills. He is the 2nd best "initially" scrambling QB to ever play behind Steve Young.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Madden Curse!!!

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

no he isn't

and yes it is the Madden Curse.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=JigsawWill;366234]no he isn't

and yes it is the Madden Curse.[/QUOTE]

Why isn't he jigsaw?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

People didn't think he could play the QB position coming out of college. Last year he single handedly lead his team to some great wins.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I think all of us would agree that Kerry Collins either sucks or is nothing special...yet at half time the Titans are up 22-7 with Collins leading the way. Vince Young has not had that kind of half time lead all season. Hmmmm.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Wow...what a come back by the texans. The Titans D just collapsed! Sage Rosenfels is s stud. LOL.

How about that come back by Kerry Collins? Good thing the horrible Vince Young didn't play or the Titans would have lost. Young can't get his team to score 38 points!!! Collins made a herioc 4th quarter 1 minute drive too. Impressive. I guess the Titans are better off without Young.

This game confirms more than ever that VY is indeed overrated.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

280 yards passing by collins, and a 4th quarter comeback with only 1 minute left. By some here, that means that Collins is the best ever. (of course we know otherwise)

When was the last time Young threw for 280 yards and scored 38 points in a game you ask????
Well the answer is NEVER. Young's career high is 249 yards, and has only thrown for 200 or more yards 4 times in 21 games.
Also, the titans have scored over 30 only 3 times in his 21 games, and the career high is 31 (twice).
Wow.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I definately disagree with Vince Young going to the Pro Bowl, but I think it's hard to measure his value solely by referencing his stats. Vince came up big in clutch situations and 99% of Titans fans will tell you as much. I know you don't care for the whole mobile-QB thing, but in VY's case, his arm and legs made plays when he needed to.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I guess VY should just retire then.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;367085]I guess VY should just retire then.[/QUOTE]

Nothing like overreacting eh matty?

Even if you sucked at your job, if you were making millions, would you retire?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;367085]I guess VY should just retire then.[/QUOTE]

If I were Tenn I'd trade him while people like you still thinks he can thrown and "win games" with his whopping 11-9 record. Then I'd go get a REAL Qb.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;367826]If I were Tenn I'd trade him while people like you still thinks he can thrown and "win games" with his whopping 11-9 record. Then I'd go get a REAL Qb.[/QUOTE]

An 11-9 record for a rookie/2nd year QB on a team that was awful and doesn't have a loaded WR corps or a proven RB is pretty good.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;367832]An 11-9 record for a rookie QB on a team that was awful and doesn't have a loaded WR corps or a proven RB is pretty good.[/QUOTE]

Just like Grossman going 13-3 and to the super bowl in his first starting GIG is pretty good too, but where did that get him?

All I ask is that in 5 years when Young's luster has worn off and he has won nothing, and everyone finally sees that he can't throw for shit, you remember that I was the only one that called it.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;367007]280 yards passing by collins, and a 4th quarter comeback with only 1 minute left. By some here, that means that Collins is the best ever. (of course we know otherwise)

When was the last time Young threw for 280 yards and scored 38 points in a game you ask????
Well the answer is NEVER. Young's career high is 249 yards, and has only thrown for 200 or more yards 4 times in 21 games.
Also, the titans have scored over 30 only 3 times in his 21 games, and the career high is 31 (twice).
Wow.[/QUOTE]

Yeah Collins is one hell of a field goal kicker. 42 pass attempts for 280 yards and no TDs isn't exactly jaw dropping

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;367839]Yeah Collins is one hell of a field goal kicker. 42 pass attempts for 280 yards and no TDs isn't exactly jaw dropping[/QUOTE]

LOL...280 yards is more than Young dreams about (as my other stats show if you read them).
He obviously got them in field goal range, more than Young can say since his career high is 31 points. Any way you slice it, Collins played better than Young's career bests.

Nice try SS, but that argument holds no water.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;367835]Just like Grossman going 13-3 and to the super bowl in his first starting GIG is pretty good too, but where did that get him?

All I ask is that in 5 years when Young's luster has worn off and he has won nothing, and everyone finally sees that he can't throw for shit, you remember that I was the only one that called it.[/QUOTE]

Why is it that you made excuses for Joey Harrington's failures (e.g., no one could be successful behind that line, with those wideouts), but you won't make similar excuses for Young? Young is arguably playing behind a line that isn't any better than Atlanta's, with RBs who aren't as good at Atlanta's, and with wideouts that no other club would want to have. Young is also a 2nd year QB. Yet, for some unknown reason, Vince Young stinks while Joey Harrington (a guy who's been dumped by 2 clubs and benched by the third) is a victim of circumstance.

In my opinion, Young isn't some stud QB, but he is certainly better than Harrington and he has shown signs of promise.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;367844]Why is it that you made excuses for Joey Harrington's failures (e.g., no one could be successful behind that line, with those wideouts), but you won't make similar excuses for Young? Young is arguably playing behind a line that isn't any better than Atlanta's, with RBs who aren't as good at Atlanta's, and with wideouts that no other club would want to have. Young is also a 2nd year QB. Yet, for some unknown reason, Vince Young stinks while Joey Harrington (a guy who's been dumped by 2 clubs and benched by the third) is a victim of circumstance.

In my opinion, Young isn't some stud QB, but he is certainly better than Harrington and he has shown signs of promise.[/QUOTE]

Harington is not overrated...he is what he is. Everyone dogged on Harrington like he was the worst QB that ever walked. I don't think he's anything special, I just don't think he's the worst ever.

LOL...the 5th best rushing attack in the NFL at 144.0 yards per game and he's behind a line that is comparable to Atlanta? I don't think so.

Eric Moulds is a hall of famer, Roydell Williams is immensely talented, Jones is pretty talented himself, and Gage is OK. So I dare say that Young makes them look bad, not the other way around. Those WR numbers look bad because Young is bad. If you only throw for say 10 attempts a game, and you throw to say 5 different players, then the MAX someone can get is 2 receptions per game, those numbers will look horrible, but it has nothing to do with their talent, it has to do with the opportunity thrown their way.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;364894]c'mon not this again

:doh:[/QUOTE]


I know, who cares really?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I guess the real question should be, why do people blindly think Young is good? I have offered stat after stat and none were refuted, so why ignore it all?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Sean Taylor;367850]I know, who cares really?[/QUOTE]

LOL...you do, or you wouldn't be here reading it. LOL.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;367007]280 yards passing by collins, and a 4th quarter comeback with only 1 minute left. By some here, that means that Collins is the best ever. (of course we know otherwise)

When was the last time Young threw for 280 yards and scored 38 points in a game you ask????
Well the answer is NEVER. Young's career high is 249 yards, and has only thrown for 200 or more yards 4 times in 21 games.
Also, the titans have scored over 30 only 3 times in his 21 games, and the career high is 31 (twice).
Wow.[/QUOTE]

How come you don't consider the 69 yards rushing (with a TD) that Vince had in addition to his 249 yard passing day? Or do you?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;367853]LOL...you do, or you wouldn't be here reading it. LOL.[/QUOTE]

I see it keep coming up to the top of the board and wonder why. Like that commercial where he's talking about his tatoos, who fucking cares!!!

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I surrender. Everyone except you jsarno has their blinders on. If only just about the entire NFL could see past the B.S., they would all realize that they are wrong, you are right, and Vince Young sucks.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;367863]I surrender. Everyone except you jsarno has their blinders on. If only just about the entire NFL could see past the B.S., they would all realize that they are wrong, you are right, and Vince Young sucks.[/QUOTE]

He blows. He's like a huge Fat Head Doll nobody can tackle. Like a Fat Head QB running back with a worst throwing motion in history. I loved his come back against the G-men last year though......

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=jsarno;367835]Just like Grossman going 13-3 and to the super bowl in his first starting GIG is pretty good too, but where did that get him?

All I ask is that in 5 years when Young's luster has worn off and he has won nothing, and everyone finally sees that he can't throw for shit, you remember that I was the only one that called it.[/quote]
As I was watching CBS and saw that the Titans were about to kick the winning FG, I was laughing and thinking to myself, Jsarno is going to have a field day if Collins wins this game for them. Who knows, maybe you are right after all.