Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Buster;687509]It's not based on accusations, it's based on facts.

Facts such as:

*He's repeatedly using bad judgment, from the motorcycle to these multiple sexual assault claims. Bad personal conduct means bad press for the team, the league and all athletes who will be stereotyped because of the actions of a prominent player.

*He's voluntarily putting himself in these situations and in with these crowds. He's choosing to be put in compromising situations.

*This is not the first time he's been involved in a situation like this, whether pursued legally or not. The "wrong place, wrong time" defense only works once. After that, it becomes a pattern of behavior. His two accusations/incidents were not too far apart, time-wise either. It doesn't appear he's learned from his previous mess, or even his motorcycle accident. Sure, it was an "accident", but he doesn't seem to value his career or realize he's an asset of the team that needs to be protected.

*Other players have been punished for far less-severe situations. Just because law enforcement or the legal system doesn't spell out a decision, that doesn't mean no crime was committed. In this case, there was apparently "not enough evidence to prosecute and win a case" according to the DA. We really don't have to bring up OJ or Kobe Bryant, do we?


It may not even take a decision by Goodell to give him some time off. The Rooneys and Steelers are considering doing it themselves and after trading Holmes for equally-stupid but less severe offenses...they're serious.

[URL="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10103/1049923-66.stm"]Steelers ponder suspension of Roethlisberger[/URL]


It seems like they're preparing for the worst-case scenario and not having Roethlisberger permanently...they just re-signed the ancient Charlie Batch for 2 more years.

[URL="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10086/1046111-66.stm"]Steelers' Batch accepts two-year deal[/URL][/quote]


I don't know how riding a motorcycle warrants a suspension. The woman out west has no credibility.

This situation is bad but my point is that Goodell is looking for legal trouble if he starts suspending people because they are accused of things. Especially when the accusers are not willing to pursue the matter past the accusation.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687512]I don't know how riding a motorcycle warrants a suspension. The woman out west has no credibility.

This situation is bad but my point is that Goodell is looking for legal trouble if he starts suspending people because they are accused of things. Especially when the accusers are not willing to pursue the matter past the accusation.[/quote]

a. No one said riding a motorcycle warrants a suspension. Wrecking one with NO HELMET, whether the Governor OK'd it or not with a controversial law. It goes back to "protecting the team's investment" and personal responsibility. That was his first of many boneheaded decisions, I wouldn't expect that alone to get him suspended, but when discussing his overall track record or irresponsibility, it's included.

b. She may have no credibility but after how many women can we continue to side with him? This second case had a lot more evidence pointing to it possibly happening. After a first false accusation (if it was), why wasn't he a little more careful where he went and who he associated with? Back to needing to be taught how to conduct himself as a professional.

Goodell will not face any legal issues if he suspends anyone for anything. It's a private business that can control its employees any way it deems necessary, just as any other company. He may face Union pushback, but legally, other than possibly violating contracts if it was really pursued, he wouldn't have to worry about anything. If you conduct yourself in a horrible way that makes your company look bad, you'd probably just be fired outright. Ben would be lucky just to get a month off compared to the rest of us.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687508]See this is an ignorant statement. Were you there? Are you an expert on rape cases? He wasn't even arrested but you are qualified to label him as a serial rapist?

Come on now.[/quote]

hes been accused of rape over 3 times now

if you cant see that hes a rapist u r ignorant and stupid

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687508]See this is an ignorant statement. Were you there? Are you an expert on rape cases? He wasn't even arrested but you are qualified to label him as a serial rapist?

Come on now.[/quote]

just in case if you try to defend ur boy about being accussed 3 times

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/13/boston-attorney-says-he-investigated-another-roethlisberger-incident/]Boston attorney says he investigated another Roethlisberger incident | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=TheBackupKicker;687526]hes been accused of rape over 3 times now

if you cant see that hes a rapist u r ignorant and stupid[/quote]


Wow, you really made your case with that response. "Over three times". I am aware of two. What are the other 2 plus cases that I am not aware of and that law enforcement has chosen to ignore?

Enlighten me...

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687528]Wow, you really made your case with that response. "Over three times". I am aware of two. What are the other 2 plus cases that I am not aware of and that law enforcement has chosen to ignore?

Enlighten me...[/quote]

post #84

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=TheBackupKicker;687527]just in case if you try to defend ur boy about being accussed 3 times

[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/13/boston-attorney-says-he-investigated-another-roethlisberger-incident/"]Boston attorney says he investigated another Roethlisberger incident | ProFootballTalk.com[/URL][/quote]


Don't be too confident if that's your source (PFT.com).

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=TheBackupKicker;687527]just in case if you try to defend ur boy about being accussed 3 times

[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/13/boston-attorney-says-he-investigated-another-roethlisberger-incident/"]Boston attorney says he investigated another Roethlisberger incident | ProFootballTalk.com[/URL][/quote]


He isn't my boy in fact I would rather have Big Ben off the field because it helps the Redskins goal. But I have a problem with someone being labeled a serial rapist when they have never been arrested for a single sexual crime.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687535]He isn't my boy in fact I would rather have Big Ben off the field because it helps the Redskins goal. But I have a problem with someone being labeled a serial rapist when they have never been arrested for a single sexual crime.[/quote]

I have a problem with him getting away with it everytime

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=TheBackupKicker;687533]post #84[/quote]

Hey Perry Mason, I hate to burst your bubble but your post was "over 3 times". Over 3 would mean 4 or more.

So now you are citing a PFT report on a case which basically appeared out of thin air and we know zero details of.

I have said over and over again that I think Big Ben did something wrong in GA but to call him a serial rapist is just plain ignorant.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687535]He isn't my boy in fact I would rather have Big Ben off the field because it helps the Redskins goal. But I have a problem with someone being labeled a serial rapist when they have never been arrested for a single sexual crime.[/quote]

I agree the label is wrong.

However, I think he needs to learn a lesson and grow up. A suspension may help that process along. If not, he'll end up like Santonio Holmes, but may not be as lucky to go to a contender, or anywhere. The Steelers were 24 hours away from outright cutting him. For some reason, the Jets offered a draft pick. Then again, they also picked up Antonio Cromartie and Braylon Edwards. They're becoming "Dallas-North".

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Buster;687554]I agree the label is wrong.

However, I think he needs to learn a lesson and grow up. A suspension may help that process along. If not, he'll end up like Santonio Holmes, but may not be as lucky to go to a contender, or anywhere. The Steelers were 24 hours away from outright cutting him. For some reason, the Jets offered a draft pick. Then again, they also picked up Antonio Cromartie and Braylon Edwards. They're becoming "Dallas-North".[/quote]


I think that Goodell has painted himself in a corner and will be forced to suspend Big Ben. I would think that if he is suspended without pay, there is going to be a fight.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687557]I think that Goodell has painted himself in a corner and will be forced to suspend Big Ben. I would think that if he is suspended without pay, there is going to be a fight.[/quote]
I hope so. We need consistency.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

It's now being reported that this same thing happened in another bar a while back but the girl decided not to move forward. I'm starting to think that this guy needs to be sat down for a while and he needs to get some professional help.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;687583]It's now being reported that this same thing happened in another bar a while back but the girl decided not to move forward. I'm starting to think that this guy needs to be sat down for a while and he needs to get some professional help.[/quote]

He has a rep among players and media, no doubt. I don't really know him, never met the guy or anything like that. But those that have all said the same thing when this incident in Georgia was first reported "Not surprised at all"

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;687583]It's now being reported that this same thing happened in another bar a while back but the girl decided not to move forward. I'm starting to think that this guy needs to be sat down for a while and he needs to get some professional help.[/quote]


Well at what point to we point the finger at law enforcment and district attorneys? You can't tell me the method to Ben's madness is to get shitfaced and then methodically execute rapes and then cover his tracks.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687557]I think that Goodell has painted himself in a corner and will be forced to suspend Big Ben. I would think that if he is suspended without pay, there is going to be a fight.[/quote]

Big Ben will not fight a suspension with out pay. This a very very embarrassing situation he put himself in. It is something that he wants to put behind him. Publicly fighting a commissioner ruling will keep this story in the headlines. Nobody wants that, especially Ben.
In regards to the debate about players getting suspended over incidents that were never charged with a crime, as ESPN put it...'this a personal conduct policy, not a get charged with a crime policy.'
Goddell is well with in his rights to suspend him, fine him or force him in to a therapy. It is a privilege to work and play in the NFL, not a right.
Ben is inches away from losing his million dollar a year job. He is walking on egg shells right now.
IMO if Ben does something stupid like battle with Goddell the Rooney's will cut his ass. Pittsburgh is not a Cincinnati Bengals that puts up with shit from their players. Ask Santonio Holmes for a lowly 5th round pick.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Defensewins;687598]Big Ben will not fight a suspension with out pay. This a very very embarrassing situation he put himself in. It is something that he wants to put behind him. Publicly fighting a commissioner ruling will keep this story in the headlines. Nobody wants that, especially Ben.
In regards to the debate about players getting suspended over incidents that were never charged with a crime, as ESPN put it...'this a personal conduct policy, not a get charged with a crime policy.'
Goddell is well with in his rights to suspend him, fine him or force him in to a therapy. It is a privilege to work and play in the NFL, not a right.
Ben is inches away from losing his million dollar a year job. He is walking on egg shells right now.
IMO if Ben does something stupid like battle with Goddell the Rooney's will cut his ass. Pittsburgh is not a Cincinnati Bengals that puts up with shit from their players. Ask Santonio Holmes for a lowly 5th round pick.[/quote]


I guess we will see. It will also matter how long the suspension is for. If they suspend him for the year, the reaction will be different than if he gets 2 games.

Edit: Btw, wouldn't it be the union that would stick up for Ben? They have to don't they?

The union and the league aren't exactly on the best terms right now...

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687548]Hey Perry Mason, I hate to burst your bubble but your post was "over 3 times". Over 3 would mean 4 or more.

So now you are citing a PFT report on a case which basically appeared out of thin air and we know zero details of.

I have said over and over again that I think Big Ben did something wrong in GA but to call him a serial rapist is just plain ignorant.[/quote] the lawyer said there were other times if u can read and im glad u think its just a big conspiracy against ben

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=TheBackupKicker;687642]the lawyer said there were other times if u can read and im glad u think its just a big conspiracy against ben[/quote]


Did I say anything about a conspiracy against Big Ben? I said it is ignorant to call him a serial rapist. I didn't hear the lawyer call him a serial rapist.

Why can't you read something and stick to what was actually written instead of being offbase with every single point and counter point you have made?

It really is frustrating to talk to you.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687645]Did I say anything about a conspiracy against Big Ben? I said it is ignorant to call him a serial rapist. I didn't hear the lawyer call him a serial rapist.

Why can't you read something and stick to what was actually written instead of being offbase with every single point and counter point you have made?

It really is frustrating to talk to you.[/quote]

i guess osama bin laden is innocent too cuz i never saw him kill anyone right?

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=TheBackupKicker;687646]i guess osama bin laden is innocent too cuz i never saw him kill anyone right?[/quote]


You know, oxygen is a limited resource. Haven't you wasted enough?

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687657]You know, oxygen is a limited resource. Haven't you wasted enough?[/quote]

r u big bens brother? every1 would agree with me that ben is a rapist i dont know wat ur deal is

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

pockets straight your taking that innocent until proven guilty thing too far

would you let your daughter hang out with this guy?

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[IMG]http://www.gatorswearjeanshorts.net/blog/uploaded_images/The_New_Ben_Roethlisberger%20copy-790217.gif[/IMG]

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

i was just on the steelers board talkin shit about the pens and big ben

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=DCSportsFan98;687666]pockets straight your taking that innocent until proven guilty thing too far

would you let your daughter hang out with this guy?[/quote]


If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times. The Bill of Rights is overrated!!! ;-)

If I had a daughter I would implant a GPS in her...

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=DCSportsFan98;687666]pockets straight your taking that innocent until proven guilty thing too far

would you let your daughter hang out with this guy?[/quote]

Are you and BackUpKicker brothers or something like that?

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=DCSportsFan98;687666]pockets straight your taking that innocent until proven guilty thing too far

would you let your daughter hang out with this guy?[/quote]

Isn't that a different question than whether a guy is a "serial rapist"? Pocket Straight's point, i thing, and which I agree with, is it is one thing to say Ben's an idiot, and did idiotic things; and quite another to say that he is a serial rapist when he hasn't been convicted of even one. This doesn't seem like an unreasonable statement to me.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

I'm thinking pocket$ $traight's last name is Roethlisberger, he seems to want to be "that guy" that defends the guy no one else wants to.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Buster;687685]I'm thinking pocket$ $traight's last name is Roethlisberger, he seems to want to be "that guy" that defends the guy no one else wants to.[/quote]

Check out the Big Ben thread when this first broke. I said, before any details came out, that my gut feeling was that he did something wrong.

I am not defending anything that Ben did. Maybe serial rapist is a label we can throw around at will now...

It wouldn't be the first or last time that I am wrong.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

Serial Rapist?...Can't prove it.

Serial Immaturity..Yes

Serial Idiot...absolutely!

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

There are lots of things we all "know" that we can't prove [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I].

We make decisions all the times based on this "knowledge". If we only made decisions based on what we could prove [I]beyond a reasonable doubt [/I]we'd make a lot more mistakes.

What I "know" is this guy is a scumbag rapist.

Thankfully I don't need "beyond a reasonable doubt" to make every judgement for me. Common sense works much better.

And, yes, OJ did it.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Moondog;687763]There are lots of things we all "know" that we can't prove [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I].

We make decisions all the times based on this "knowledge". If we only made decisions based on what we could prove [I]beyond a reasonable doubt [/I]we'd make a lot more mistakes.

What I "know" is this guy is a scumbag rapist.

Thankfully I don't need "beyond a reasonable doubt" to make every judgement for me. Common sense works much better.

And, yes, OJ did it.[/quote]

correct

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

I'm not sure how I feel about someone, who wants to see us trade for BM, agreeing with me. :confused:

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Moondog;687763]There are lots of things we all "know" that we can't prove [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I].

We make decisions all the times based on this "knowledge". If we only made decisions based on what we could prove [I]beyond a reasonable doubt [/I]we'd make a lot more mistakes.

What I "know" is this guy is a scumbag rapist.

Thankfully I don't need "beyond a reasonable doubt" to make every judgement for me. Common sense works much better.

And, yes, OJ did it.[/quote]

Let's hope you don't get accused of something and face 12 jurors like you. If you do, I will send you a toothbrush and some underwear.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

I had to LMAO at this one. PFT and Florio are a constant subject of criticism on this website. I read PFT a few times a week. Not because I like the site, but more because I like to scour for rumors and pick and choose what I think is plausible.

Florio had this preface to his post about Big Ben trade rumors:
[I]
It's one thing for the Internet to spawn sports rumors. Many of them come from message boards or slapdicks like me who throw stuff against the wall. Those rumors rarely register a blip.[/I]

HA! He flat out acknowledges what a hack he is. "Slapdicks like me..." "Those rumors rarely register a blip." LOL. At least Florio knows who he is.

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/13/already-the-big-ben-trade-rumors-start/]Already, the Big Ben trade rumors start | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;687847]Let's hope you don't get accused of something and face 12 jurors like you. If you do, I will send you a toothbrush and some underwear.[/quote]

You're missing the point.



Edit: What I am talking about is that we require different burdens of proof in different situations and contexts. And we all do this, including you, every day.


Looking at legal cases:

In criminal cases the burden of proof is [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I]. This is the very highest burden of proof and it belongs here due to the life-long (or life-ending) consequences of the outcome.

In civil cases (the majority of legal cases people are asked to sit on juries for) the burden of proof is lower. Often simply a [I]Preponderance of the Evidence[/I] or [I]Clear and Convincing Evidence[/I].

We do this in our everyday life as well. The more dangerous or risky a possible situation is, likely, the lower our burden of proof becomes before we decide it's a bad idea. For instance, based on Big Ben's history to date, no Child Placement Agency worth their salt is ever going to approve this dunderhead as a licensed foster or adoptive home for teenage girls.

Smoking cigarettes has not ever been found to cause cancer and heart disease [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I] but I seriously doubt you'd tell your teenage son to smoke because this high burden of proof hasn't been met.

If I was on a jury I'd judge the situation and weigh the evidence based on the burden of proof required for the type of case. But, don't worry, I always get sent home early in any jury selection process because of my profession.

So, is Big Ben guilty of a criminal offense? No. No charge is being brought. Read up on sexual assault cases or talk to local DAs and they can tell you why these are very challenging cases, especially in this media age of C.S.I. fandom, to try.

Is Big Ben a rapist if applying common sense and the evidence we have heard? To me, yes. If that bothers you, that's your problem.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Moondog;687958]You're missing the point.[/quote]


And so are you. You don't know what happened. You are assuming that you know what happened. Unless you were in the bathroom, you are making an assumption based on available information.

Do you think Ben did something wrong. Yes.
Do I think that Ben did something wrong in GA. Yes

Do either of us know for a fact that Ben did something wrong. No.

If I had to bet my mortgage on a crime being commited vs. not being commited I would bet that he did something. Do I think Ben is a scumbag? Yes, but that is also based off of a pretty heavy media campaign placing him in an unfavorable light.

The Duke lacrosse case looked pretty cut and dry too.

There is a lot of grey area here which is complicated by the fact that alcohol was involved.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=GMScud;687869]I had to LMAO at this one. PFT and Florio are a constant subject of criticism on this website. I read PFT a few times a week. Not because I like the site, but more because I like to scour for rumors and pick and choose what I think is plausible.

Florio had this preface to his post about Big Ben trade rumors:
[I]
It's one thing for the Internet to spawn sports rumors. Many of them come from message boards or slapdicks like me who throw stuff against the wall. Those rumors rarely register a blip.[/I]

HA! He flat out acknowledges what a hack he is. "Slapdicks like me..." "Those rumors rarely register a blip." LOL. At least Florio knows who he is.

[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/13/already-the-big-ben-trade-rumors-start/"]Already, the Big Ben trade rumors start | ProFootballTalk.com[/URL][/quote]


I literally lol'd last night when I read that