Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Moondog;687958]You're missing the point.



Edit: What I am talking about is that we require different burdens of proof in different situations and contexts. And we all do this, including you, every day.


Looking at legal cases:

In criminal cases the burden of proof is [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I]. This is the very highest burden of proof and it belongs here due to the life-long (or life-ending) consequences of the outcome.

In civil cases (the majority of legal cases people are asked to sit on juries for) the burden of proof is lower. Often simply a [I]Preponderance of the Evidence[/I] or [I]Clear and Convincing Evidence[/I].

We do this in our everyday life as well. The more dangerous or risky a possible situation is, likely, the lower our burden of proof becomes before we decide it's a bad idea. For instance, based on Big Ben's history to date, no Child Placement Agency worth their salt is ever going to approve this dunderhead as a licensed foster or adoptive home for teenage girls.

Smoking cigarettes has not ever been found to cause cancer and heart disease [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I] but I seriously doubt you'd tell your teenage son to smoke because this high burden of proof hasn't been met.

If I was on a jury I'd judge the situation and weigh the evidence based on the burden of proof required for the type of case. But, don't worry, I always get sent home early in any jury selection process because of my profession.

So, is Big Ben guilty of a criminal offense? No. No charge is being brought. Read up on sexual assault cases or talk to local DAs and they can tell you why these are very challenging cases, especially in this media age of C.S.I. fandom, to try.

Is Big Ben a rapist if applying common sense and the evidence we have heard? To me, yes. If that bothers you, that's your problem.[/quote]


Ok. So instead of an internet forum where you can say whatever you want about anybody, if you were on a TV interview and someone said, "What do you think about Big Ben?". You would answer, "He is a scumbag rapist". That would seem like an easy defamation case to me.

The standard to charge someone with sexual assault is very low. If I am not mistaken, a female who is intoxicated could charge a male with assault in many juridictions. It wouldn't matter if she initiated the encounter. If she presented herself as a believable victim to the police, they could very well arrest and ultimately convict the other party. Well, what male hasn't gone to a bar and hooked up and slept with a drunk girl? Are we all scumbag rapists?

In some places an 18 year old male who sleeps with his 17 year old girlfriend can and are charged with a sexual offense. Are they scumbag rapists?

This is what I want to know. What exactly did this girl think was going to happen when she went into a private bathroom with an NFL player? Was she planning on discussing the playbook?

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

We've moved past the details of this specific case and are discussing his overall track record of bad judgment and conduct. At least, I am.

He's a horrible representative for his team and league. The Rooneys are furious at him and I'd expect them to suspend him if the league doesn't. He's far from a professional and is becoming a detriment to his team and possibly locker room.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=tootergray34;686737]People like to see celebritites go down...but I for one feel that this is true.[SIZE=4] I mean Micheal Jackson was never accused of molesting children..[/SIZE].but most would tend to agree that he was a very wierd individual and *probably* did it.

This being the 2nd time he has been accused...and not the first time that he has done something stupid...like wreck a motorcycle on the freeway going what...85mph?

Or I just like to call him Ben Rapelesberger b/c I hate The Steelers...and their bandwagon fans in my town that swear up and down that they have been fans their whole lives...but just a few years ago...they were the biggest Patriots fans ever.[/quote]

Umm, yes he was.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson]1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

A couple thoughts: I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard anything regarding the meeting Rothlesberger had with Goodell yesterday. I don't know how to interpret that. Secondly, even if no charges were filed against Rothlesberger for sexual assault, i'm having a hard time understanding why he wasn't atleast charged with providing alcohol to underage girls. its my understanding that Rothlesbergers attourney's have conceded that that did actually take place. One would think Rothlesberger should face some disciplinary action from the league for that, since its the only crime he's admitted to.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=firstdown;688048]Umm, yes he was.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson"]1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL][/quote]
yeah, guessing he meant convicted of

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Buster;688042]We've moved past the details of this specific case and are discussing his overall track record of bad judgment and conduct. At least, I am.

He's a horrible representative for his team and league. The Rooneys are furious at him and I'd expect them to suspend him if the league doesn't. He's far from a professional and is becoming a detriment to his team and possibly locker room.[/quote]


I agree. He put himself in a bad situation (possibly on multiple occasions), he put his team in a bad situation and he has put the league in a bad situation.

He should have been more careful after the incident out west and he had an encounter with a relatively young girl and obviously made her feel uncomfortable enough where she felt she should alert authorities.

Bottom line is he is a huge effing idiot and hopefully he will be traded (outside of the NFC East) so the Steelers run comes to a halt.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;688056]A couple thoughts: I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard anything regarding the meeting Rothlesberger had with Goodell yesterday. I don't know how to interpret that. Secondly, even if no charges were filed against Rothlesberger for sexual assault, i'm having a hard time understanding why he wasn't atleast charged with providing alcohol to underage girls. its my understanding that Rothlesbergers attourney's have conceded that that did actually take place. One would think Rothlesberger should face some disciplinary action from the league for that, since its the only crime he's admitted to.[/quote]

I am suprised that some type of punishment has not been announced yet.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;688056]A couple thoughts: I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard anything regarding the meeting Rothlesberger had with Goodell yesterday. I don't know how to interpret that. Secondly, even if no charges were filed against Rothlesberger for sexual assault,[B] i'm having a hard time understanding why he wasn't atleast charged with providing alcohol to underage girls. its my understanding that Rothlesbergers attourney's have conceded that that did actually take place. One would think Rothlesberger should face some disciplinary action from the league for that, since its the only crime he's admitted to.[/quote][/B]

Thats a good point. Ben really did get lucky he admitts to a crime and then it falls on def ears.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

Goodell is probably going to take a bit to think it over.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

Yeah, I'm not going to fault the guy for buying shots alone, should be the doorman and bartender's job to make sure someone is old enough to drink before 1) letting them in and/or 2) letting them consume

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=tryfuhl;688117]Yeah, I'm not going to fault the guy for buying shots alone, should be the doorman and bartender's job to make sure someone is old enough to drink before 1) letting them in and/or 2) letting them consume[/quote]

Noway its the person buying the alcohol. If the minor is in a dark corner. There is really know way to stop it. Its just like when minors are at a party if they get in a wreck and kill themselves the law go straight to the people providing the drinks, not the store that sold the drink unless they sold it to the victoms.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=warpaint;688119]Noway its the person buying the alcohol. If the minor is in a dark corner. There is really know way to stop it. Its just like when minors are at a party if they get in a wreck and kill themselves the law go straight to the people providing the drinks, not the store that sold the drink unless they sold it to the victoms.[/quote]
When you bartend and sell multiple drinks it's up to you to make sure that the drinks are going to people who are allowed to consume them by law. If it was a 21+ club it's the establishment's responsibility to determine who is allowed in and out. Now if it was an 18+ and Ben was sneaking shots over knowing that the girl wasn't 21, he's to blame. You'll find that a lot of places won't just hand out large rounds because of this.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;688108]I am suprised that some type of punishment has not been announced yet.[/quote]

perhaps the only punishment is that he's been placed in the substance abuse program, and therefore its confidential. Big Ben is back with the team working out now and will participate in the Steelers upcoming camp. i think those are signs that no substantial punishment is coming, which is very disappointing. i'm glad he's not our QB. if so, i'd stop rooting for the team until he was no longer with the team.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=tryfuhl;688124]When you bartend and sell multiple drinks it's up to you to make sure that the drinks are going to people who are allowed to consume them by law. If it was a 21+ club it's the establishment's responsibility to determine who is allowed in and out. Now if it was an 18+ and Ben was sneaking shots over knowing that the girl wasn't 21, he's to blame. You'll find that a lot of places won't just hand out large rounds because of this.[/quote]

Ok did the club have a 21 age limit? If so your right. He did admitt to providing the drinks. Now if the club allows 18 and up that girl would have had some type of marking on her permitting from drinking.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;688134]perhaps the only punishment is that he's been placed in the substance abuse program, and therefore its confidential. Big Ben is back with the team working out now and will participate in the Steelers upcoming camp. i think those are signs that no substantial punishment is coming, which is very disappointing. i'm glad he's not our QB. if so, i'd stop rooting for the team until he was no longer with the team.[/quote]

Good catch. Also, Ben said that the meeting was "productive". I am reading tea leaves but that would seem to follow what you suggested.

If Goodell only hands a substance abuse punishment down, he is going to get killed in the media.

Whitlock will be all over him.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=warpaint;688142]Ok did the club have a 21 age limit? If so your right. He did admitt to providing the drinks. Now if the club allows 18 and up that girl would have had some type of marking on her permitting from drinking.[/quote]
I don't know the answers to that. She could've had a fake ID as well, who knows. It is still the bartender's responsibility to know where the drinks he's handing out is going. This is why in a lot of places you can only order 1-3 drinks at a time. If Roeth knew it's his fault too.

edit:
Reading some reviews it seems like 18+, no clue on how they mark underaged kids, and black guys are routinely denied no matter what.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

any way you look at it, the establishment bears some responsibility for serving underage persons alcohol. however, there's no denying that rothlesberger is culpable as well. he (knowingly or otherwise) provided alcohol to someone who was underage. its not really any different than if he engaged in sexual conduct with someone who was underage. even if the hypothetical girl told him she was of legally consenting age, he would have committed a crime.

i understand the alcohol thing is relatively minor when compared to everything else, but the way i see it, its the only thing he could actually be charged with, given the current evidence. its kinda like charging al capone with tax evasion. granted, rothlesberger is not al capone, but he's still a scumbag. based on everything i've read, hes a despicable, disgusting human being and best and he doesn't deserve to play in the NFL.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

The GA DA said they had DNA, but the sample size was too small to determine whether it came from Ben the Thug. With today's technology I don't buy that at all. I think Ben is a lucky man and used money to buy the woman off. I have no proof, but I do believe that's what happened.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

there's also the security video recordings that were deleted so police couldnt review them. unfortunately, its probably going to take another incident where rothlesberger assaults someone for him to be put away where he belongs.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[YT]7C3RrvZMx-M[/YT]

NM, move along, looks like the video will not post.

NM now its there, still not much to see.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[QUOTE=Pocket$ $traight;688034]Ok. So instead of an internet forum where you can say whatever you want about anybody, if you were on a TV interview and someone said, "What do you think about Big Ben?". You would answer, "He is a scumbag rapist". That would seem like an easy defamation case to me.

The standard to charge someone with sexual assault is very low. If I am not mistaken[QUOTE]

You are.

If I was asked on T.V. ( :yeahright) what I thought of Big Ben and replied "I believe he is a scumbag rapist." I'd be perfectly fine. I wouldn't be stating it while [I]knowing[/I] that it was untrue just to damage him. It's not defamation in this case. It's free speech. I can have an opinion about someone without a court ruling telling me it's ok to have it. Thank God.

Over 1 in 10 Americans believe Obama is the anti-christ and have stated so in print, radio and T.V.. That's some pretty serious defamation right there. Right?

As to him not being charged and the supposed low standard to press charges of sexual assault: Where are you pulling this from? Do you know this [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I]? :silly:

In Georgia, the DAs office makes the decision whether to press charges or not. Not the victim or the police.

What the DA needs are all the elements of the crime met to [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I] [B]and [/B]they need to believe that they can actually win because what DA wants to end up with egg on his face by losing a high-profile case against a star athlete? They are politicians after all and they will be only using their overworked and underpaid attorneys to battle the best criminal defense attorneys that Big Ben can afford.

Many DAs share the belief that in sexual assault cases, and especially intrafamilial ones, they actually need evidence that is beyond an [B]unreasonable[/B] doubt to even think of going forward.

Any rate, enough about this. I hold an opinion you seem to find distressingly uncompassionate and close-minded. You hold a world view that seems naive and foolish...and one that I miss holding.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

Any rate, enough about this. I hold an opinion you seem to find distressingly uncompassionate and close-minded. You hold a world view that seems naive and foolish...and one that I miss holding.[/QUOTE]


Well thanks for your opinion. Take that and add two cents and you will have two cents.

Call him a rapist all you want, I will still say that you are wrong and ignorant.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

There are a lot of far worse people in the world than Big Ben, that said, he still makes some bad decisions...but is he a serial rapist? absolutely not.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=tootergray34;688245][B]There are a lot of far worse people in the world than Big Ben,[/B] that said, he still makes some bad decisions...but is he a serial rapist? absolutely not.[/quote]

most definitely. but they aren't starting quarterbacks in the NFL.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;688237]

Well thanks for your opinion. Take that and add two cents and you will have two cents.

Call him a rapist all you want, I will still say that you are wrong and ignorant.[/quote]

Saying he's absolutely not a rapist is just as ignorant as saying he absolutely is. None of us knows all the facts.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Player_HTTR;688173][YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C3RrvZMx-M[/YT]

NM, move along, looks like the video will not post.[/quote]


If it was the Terry Bradshaw comments on Ben, I agree with everything he said.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;688250]Saying he's absolutely not a rapist is just as ignorant as saying he absolutely is. None of us knows all the facts.[/quote]

So let's start calling everybody a scumbag rapist, whether it can be proven or not. You will be correct sometimes.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Player_HTTR;688173][YT]7C3RrvZMx-M[/YT]

NM, move along, looks like the video will not post.[/quote]

fixed it for you

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

Should the Steelers go after Jason Campbell?

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

And to think the Steelers passed up an Danny M in the draft because he drank in bars when he was 21 years old.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;688323]fixed it for you[/quote]

Thanks! I see what I did wrong now.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

Moondog there is no jury in a civil case.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Moondog;688198]

You are.

If I was asked on T.V. ( :yeahright) what I thought of Big Ben and replied "I believe he is a scumbag rapist." I'd be perfectly fine. I wouldn't be stating it while [I]knowing[/I] that it was untrue just to damage him. It's not defamation in this case. It's free speech. I can have an opinion about someone without a court ruling telling me it's ok to have it. Thank God.

Over 1 in 10 Americans believe Obama is the anti-christ and have stated so in print, radio and T.V.. That's some pretty serious defamation right there. Right?

As to him not being charged and the supposed low standard to press charges of sexual assault: Where are you pulling this from? Do you know this [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I]? :silly:

In Georgia, the DAs office makes the decision whether to press charges or not. Not the victim or the police.

What the DA needs are all the elements of the crime met to [I]beyond a reasonable doubt[/I] [B]and [/B]they need to believe that they can actually win because what DA wants to end up with egg on his face by losing a high-profile case against a star athlete? They are politicians after all and they will be only using their overworked and underpaid attorneys to battle the best criminal defense attorneys that Big Ben can afford.

Many DAs share the belief that in sexual assault cases, and especially intrafamilial ones, they actually need evidence that is beyond an [B]unreasonable[/B] doubt to even think of going forward.

Any rate, enough about this. I hold an opinion you seem to find distressingly uncompassionate and close-minded. You hold a world view that seems naive and foolish...and one that I miss holding.[/quote]

Regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees with this, I just have to add that this is the kind of post I appreciate- cogent, well-written and respectful. I hope you stay awhile, Moon.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=itvnetop;688332][quote=Moondog;688198][QUOTE=Pocket$ $traight;688034]Ok. So instead of an internet forum where you can say whatever you want about anybody, if you were on a TV interview and someone said, "What do you think about Big Ben?". You would answer, "He is a scumbag rapist". That would seem like an easy defamation case to me.

The standard to charge someone with sexual assault is very low. If I am not mistaken

Regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees with this, I just have to add that this is the kind of post I appreciate- cogent, well-written and respectful. I hope you stay awhile, Moon.[/quote]


Me too. If there is one thing the world needs is more lawyers, especially slanderous ones who criticize world views right after the casually label people rapists.

I would say the only occupation more admirable is Kate Goslin's; the person has managed to turn child exploitation and neglect into a lucrative occupation.

God bless America (and Obama the anti-christ...lol)

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

This is too f'ing funny...

[url=http://twitpic.com/1fjmzl]"What are you ladies up to tonight?" on Twitpic[/url]

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Ruhskins;688406]This is too f'ing funny...

[url=http://twitpic.com/1fjmzl]"What are you ladies up to tonight?" on Twitpic[/url][/quote]

:laughing2

[IMG]http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r160/nalvarado1183/martintop.gif[/IMG]

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

how do you guys manage to screw up quotes so badly haha

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;688331]Moondog there is no jury in a civil case.[/quote]

If you are going to state something as fact, it helps to fact check it before opening mouth and inserting foot.

I can't post links yet so you'll have to do the work for yourself. It'll take 3 seconds.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=Moondog;688520]If you are going to state something as fact, it helps to fact check it before opening mouth and inserting foot.

I can't post links yet so you'll have to do the work for yourself. It'll take 3 seconds.[/quote]
Correct, in certain civil cases a trial by jury may be requested.

Re: Big Ben off the hook again.
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;688331]Moondog there is no jury in a civil case.[/quote]

thats not true, atleast not in north carolina. ive been selected for jury duty on several civil cases.