Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Campbell17;375717]nope, it's Eli[/QUOTE]

Considering there are a TON of people that criticize Eli and NONE that do Young, I am afraid you're wrong. A lot of people say Eli sucks, including Giants fans, how many do you hear that say Young sucks????

Give it time though, Eli started with a ton of hype and took a lot of time before people called him overrated, the same will happen with young. People are still dazzled by his legs and overlook his shortcomings with his arm. Vick's luster also died out, Young's will too.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=jsarno;375725]Considering there are a TON of people that criticize Eli and NONE that do Young, I am afraid you're wrong. A lot of people say Eli sucks, including Giants fans, how many do you hear that say Young sucks????

Give it time though, Eli started with a ton of hype and took a lot of time before people called him overrated, the same will happen with young. People are still dazzled by his legs and overlook his shortcomings with his arm. Vick's luster also died out, Young's will too.[/quote]
You're right, any qb who runs has a much higher % of injury, and he already has one coming, he's on the Madden cover.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;375725]Considering there are a TON of people that criticize Eli and NONE that do Young, I am afraid you're wrong. A lot of people say Eli sucks, including Giants fans, how many do you hear that say Young sucks????

Give it time though, Eli started with a ton of hype and took a lot of time before people called him overrated, the same will happen with young. People are still dazzled by his legs and overlook his shortcomings with his arm. Vick's luster also died out, Young's will too.[/QUOTE]

Why are you so convinced that Young isn't going to continue to improve with experience? It wasn't until Eli's third season that people really started dumping on him. If Young has not improved half-way through next season then a post like this might become appropriate, but as of right now Young is doing pretty well for someone with barely a season's worth of starts.

And why do you insist on continuing to compare him to Vick? They might both be athletic but I think it is clear at this point that they are quite different when it comes to character. That matters on the field as well as off of it.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;375825]Why are you so convinced that Young isn't going to continue to improve with experience? It wasn't until Eli's third season that people really started dumping on him. If Young has not improved half-way through next season then a post like this might become appropriate, but as of right now Young is doing pretty well for someone with barely a season's worth of starts.

And why do you insist on continuing to compare him to Vick? They might both be athletic but I think it is clear at this point that they are quite different when it comes to character. That matters on the field as well as off of it.[/QUOTE]

1- It's been a season and a half of him playing. Sure he's still "green" but he's getting worse, not better. Today yet again, he looked bad. He actually threw for a lot of yards (257) but had 2 costly int's and only 1 td.
Look at his 4th quarter today. He did throw the 1 td on the first play of the 4th quarter, but after that, he went 3 and out (including a fumble). Then on the 2nd series, got 1 first down, then another first down on a penalty, then had a turnover on downs. On the last series, he was going to go 3 and out, but threw an INT instead. He's no leader on the field, and he doesn't have any talent throwing the ball, only running it.
2- I never once attacked his character, and when I compare him to Michael Vick, it's on the field only. I know it's been a while but I have said this more than once on this thread. And I don't think it matters as much as you think. Vick won a lot of games, and look at his character. Fact is, Vick was a better QB overall, and I think Vick sucked.

About Eli, I'd take Eli 20 times over Young. Eli is a good qb, and he can win a game with his arm. He can be a leader, and he has been...he's been too inconsistant to be considered great at this point though.

Yet another poor performance by Vince Young and still people don't see him for what he is. Obviously my work is still cut out for me. :D

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Why don't we post a thread that talks about our bad football team, and not some good team with a decent QB.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Campbell17;376584]Why don't we post a thread that talks about our bad football team, and not some good team with a decent QB.[/QUOTE]

Oh, there will be plenty of those...and no one is stopping you from doing so.

PS- We're talking about a good team with an extremely overrated QB. (just needed to clarify there.)

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;376571]1- It's been a season and a half of him playing. Sure he's still "green" but he's getting worse, not better. Today yet again, he looked bad. He actually threw for a lot of yards (257) but had 2 costly int's and only 1 td.
Look at his 4th quarter today. He did throw the 1 td on the first play of the 4th quarter, but after that, he went 3 and out (including a fumble). Then on the 2nd series, got 1 first down, then another first down on a penalty, then had a turnover on downs. On the last series, he was going to go 3 and out, but threw an INT instead. He's no leader on the field, and he doesn't have any talent throwing the ball, only running it.
2- I never once attacked his character, and when I compare him to Michael Vick, it's on the field only. I know it's been a while but I have said this more than once on this thread. And I don't think it matters as much as you think. Vick won a lot of games, and look at his character. Fact is, Vick was a better QB overall, and I think Vick sucked.

About Eli, I'd take Eli 20 times over Young. Eli is a good qb, and he can win a game with his arm. He can be a leader, and he has been...he's been too inconsistant to be considered great at this point though.

Yet another poor performance by Vince Young and still people don't see him for what he is. Obviously my work is still cut out for me. :D[/QUOTE]

You don't have to convince me....I've watched him play here....DEFINITELY overrated. This was a game where their D struggled and they couldn't run the ball so it was all on him....and he failed miserably. Your comparison to Vick is right on in the fact that both are not very smart guys, they can't make quick decisions in their head about coverage so they just run....and while that worked in college, it doesn't cut it in the NFL.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins247;376602]You don't have to convince me....I've watched him play here....DEFINITELY overrated. This was a game where their D struggled and they couldn't run the ball so it was all on him....and he failed miserably. Your comparison to Vick is right on in the fact that both are not very smart guys, they can't make quick decisions in their head about coverage so they just run....and while that worked in college, it doesn't cut it in the NFL.[/QUOTE]

Exactly...Thank you.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

He's looking pretty smart, accurate, and impressive tonight, notwithstanding an awful lot of key drops by his wideouts.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;380729]He's looking pretty smart, accurate, and impressive tonight, notwithstanding an awful lot of key drops by his wideouts.[/quote]

It should easily be 20-14. Roydell Williams just flat out dropped a beautiful pass from VY. I think his passing game and NFL IQ need some polish, but his leadership, heart, arm, and legs are fantastic.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=Redskins247;376602]You don't have to convince me....I've watched him play here....DEFINITELY overrated. This was a game where their D struggled and they couldn't run the ball so it was all on him....and he failed miserably. Your comparison to Vick is right on in the fact that both are not very smart guys, they can't make quick decisions in their head about coverage so they just run....and while that worked in college, it doesn't cut it in the NFL.[/quote]

I thought the kid looked pretty good tonight. His wr's are the worst in the NFL.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;380762]I thought the kid looked pretty good tonight. His wr's are the worst in the NFL.[/quote]While I wouldn't say the worst, but they didn't help him last night. I think he did well but his D was giving up big plays all night and he couldn't keep up. The last INT was stupid but he had to take a shot down by 2 TDs.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;380762]I thought the kid looked pretty good tonight. His wr's are the worst in the NFL.[/quote]

Yeah he really doesn't have much help in that department.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I hate to make the obvious statement but it seems as though his situation is very simlar to what Vick's was.

Parallels:

Super mobile
Not a very good passer (yet)
Bad Wideouts
Great Running Game
Wins despite overall poor stats
Decent to strong defense.

With all that said, I think VY will be better than vick as a passer but I don't know by how much.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;380835]With all that said, I think VY will be better than vick as a passer but I don't know by how much.[/quote]I agree.

At the very least, Vince sets his feet and throws. It doesn't seem to be helping all that much, but at least he's fundamentally sound.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;380835]I hate to make the obvious statement but it seems as though his situation is very simlar to what Vick's was.

Parallels:

Super mobile
Not a very good passer (yet)
Bad Wideouts
Great Running Game
Wins despite overall poor stats
Decent to strong defense.

With all that said, I think VY will be better than vick as a passer but I don't know by how much.[/QUOTE]

True. But in light of Atlanta's woes without Vick, it seems like Vick was a good player if mediocre to poor passer? Vince is overrated by many, but like Vick he's a playmaker.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;380847]True. But in light of Atlanta's woes without Vick, it seems like Vick was a good player if mediocre to poor passer? Vince is overrated by many, but like Vick he's a playmaker.[/quote]Vick's value to his team was declining with age, for obvious reasons, and because of receiving the richest deal in all of sports at the time, his cap number was skyrocketing.

To me, I see that Vince has the ability to stick in this league because he will improve throwing over time. It's just that, by the time he figures it out, he will no longer be a dual threat guy. He's never going to live up to the potential of the 3rd overall pick.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;380847]True. But in light of Atlanta's woes without Vick, it seems like Vick was a good player if mediocre to poor passer? Vince is overrated by many, but like Vick he's a playmaker.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, atlanta is a sorry football team right now, no doubt. I wonder if some of these guys who have such overwhelming physical skills have trouble trusting a scheme/play? It seems like Vick and Young both have such tremendous talent that they always trust their own ability before the coach's gameplan. Maybe the correct term is Playbreaker instead of playmaker since they have a history of making huge individual plays and they have a tendency to abandon the plan in favor of putting the game on their back.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;380850]Yeah, atlanta is a sorry football team right now, no doubt. I wonder if some of these guys who have such overwhelming physical skills have trouble trusting a scheme/play? It seems like Vick and Young both have such tremendous talent that they always trust their own ability before the coach's gameplan. Maybe the correct term is Playbreaker instead of playmaker since they have a history of making huge individual plays and they have a tendency to abandon the plan in favor of putting the game on their back.[/quote]Good point. Great running skills are definately a double edged sword if used improperly, IMO. You can pick up crucial first downs, but you can also miss open receivers that good out of the pocket QBs like McNabb, Romo, Palmer...etc would turn into big passing plays.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;380847]True. But in light of Atlanta's woes without Vick, it seems like Vick was a good player if mediocre to poor passer? Vince is overrated by many, but like Vick he's a playmaker.[/quote]

Vick may not be the classic pocket guy, and he is a bad dude, but when you take him off Atl. they are a bad team as the eveidence shows. If you put him in the lineup they are probably 500. When he is on the field the defenses have to defend differently. The guy rushed for over a 1,000 yards. So that probably tells you his value.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

As long as Norm Chow is leading the offense, he'll find ways to maximize Young. He's known to groom quarterbacks and VY will flourish under him.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;380847]True. But in light of Atlanta's woes without Vick, it seems like Vick was a good player if mediocre to poor passer? Vince is overrated by many, but like Vick he's a playmaker.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I picked Atlanta as my sleeper this season for that very reason: if Vick is so mediocre then there shouldn't be that great a drop-off resulting from his absence. This was a strong team that had to totally collapse to miss the playoffs the last two years.

The fact that they are such a joke now has to lend Vick the QB at least a little heightened cachet right?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=djnemo65;381051]Yeah, I picked Atlanta as my sleeper this season for that very reason: if Vick is so mediocre then there shouldn't be that great a drop-off resulting from his absence. This was a strong team that had to totally collapse to miss the playoffs the last two years.

The fact that they are such a joke now has to lend Vick the QB at least a little heightened cachet right?[/quote]While I might be a little biased because I went to VT, but I think that this whole "Vick is overrated" in itself overrated. Everyone is just repeating it after hearing on ESPN or reading in some sports magazine. Yes he is not the best QB out there but he is a great player.

He is showing how valuable he was to Atlanta by not being there right now.

I think the problem was that they spent too much money on Vick and the D that they couldn't bring in decent WRs. Name me the pro bowl receivers that played with Vick. Also, look at Brady and how much better his numbers look with a new set of receivers. There were countless times when I saw White and Lellie drop very very catchable balls.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;380974]Vick may not be the classic pocket guy, and he is a bad dude, but when you take him off Atl. they are a bad team as the eveidence shows. If you put him in the lineup they are probably 500. When he is on the field the defenses have to defend differently. The guy rushed for over a 1,000 yards. So that probably tells you his value.[/quote]Atlanta is having massive issues this year that really don't have anything to do with the QB. Harrington is playing pretty well, surprisingly. I couldn't see this team a lot better with Vick, because they wouldn't have a passing game, and although they would have a running game, the D would still be downright awful.

When was the last time anyone heard the name "John Abraham"?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=TheBigD;381138]While I might be a little biased because I went to VT, but I think that this whole "Vick is overrated" in itself overrated. Everyone is just repeating it after hearing on ESPN or reading in some sports magazine. Yes he is not the best QB out there but he is a great player.

He is showing how valuable he was to Atlanta by not being there right now.

I think the problem was that they spent too much money on Vick and the D that they couldn't bring in decent WRs. Name me the pro bowl receivers that played with Vick. Also, look at Brady and how much better his numbers look with a new set of receivers. There were countless times when I saw White and Lellie drop very very catchable balls.[/quote]Back in 2002 when he had started playing, the emphasis was not on team speed on D back then. His running skills had never been seen before and his passing acumen was benefiting from that because teams already had no solution to his running skills, and thus could never really play their game. He was great because he was 23 years old, and no one could stop his game.

Since then, everyone got faster on defense. Yes, he rushed for 1,000 yards last season, but that's because he ran it 119 times, a lot more than he did (or needed to) in 2002.

If you add the value of his runs to that of his horrible passing, you come out with a player who's overall value is somewhere around the level of Eli Manning, or JP Losman. Additionally, to get his true value out of running, you have to decrease the carries the RB is getting, and put the ball in Vicks hands more. This increases the risk of turnovers by a lot.

Even if he was playing now, and leading all QBs in rushing yards, he still wouldn't be very good. A small upgrade over Harrington? Possibly. Would this awful Falcons team be a playoff contender? Not even close.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;380729]He's looking pretty smart, accurate, and impressive tonight, notwithstanding an awful lot of key drops by his wideouts.[/QUOTE]

While I agree, he did look better than normal on that monday night game, I think you are over valueing his play.
Yes, he did have a lot of drops, but he was also off on several throws including his touchdown pass. He also, yet again, had too many turnovers.
Like I said, he did play better, but even Vick would have games where he looked good only to give fans false hope, then he would shatter them the following week with poor play. I'm sure VY will will have a horrible game again. I mean, the guy has 5 passing tds, and a whopping 12 int's. You can only blame your WR's so much.
Just in case anyone has missed it, he has 2 passing tds and 6 ints in the past3 games. (and he's 1-2 in those games)

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

I believe it is much too early to say whether he is overrated or not, but I wouldn't trade him for JC. I believe JC is the best quarterback to come out of the draft since Carson Palmer.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Yet another poor performance to make my comments look like fact. No tds and 2 turnovers...this guy is a turnover machine. Losing to the inferior bengals is not good.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;382710]Yet another poor performance to make my comments look like fact. No tds and 2 turnovers...this guy is a turnover machine. Losing to the inferior bengals is not good.[/QUOTE]

I was at a bar watching the game and he looked pretty good. His stats were pretty damn good. The loss is not on him. BTW, his wideouts (if they can be called that) dropped at least 6 balls and he still managed a 60% completion percentage.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

ugh when is this madness going to stop??

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;382762]ugh when is this madness going to stop??[/QUOTE]

When posters actually understand that VY is extremely overrated. There are still people out there that are making comments about how he "looked good" and "it's not his fault". I suppose the SLEW of turnovers are not his fault either, nice to make excuses for a guy that has some of the worst stats in the NFL. When that changes, then it will stop. Until then, this is still an extremely relevant thread.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=jsarno;382853]When posters actually understand that VY is extremely overrated. There are still people out there that are making comments about how he "looked good" and "it's not his fault". I suppose the SLEW of turnovers are not his fault either, nice to make excuses for a guy that has some of the worst stats in the NFL. When that changes, then it will stop. Until then, this is still an extremely relevant thread.[/quote]

Relevant to what?? Your one man crusade to hate on Vince Young?

Why should we as Skins fans care about Vince Young any way?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;382853]When posters actually understand that VY is extremely overrated. There are still people out there that are making comments about how he "looked good" and "it's not his fault". I suppose the SLEW of turnovers are not his fault either, nice to make excuses for a guy that has some of the worst stats in the NFL. When that changes, then it will stop. Until then, this is still an extremely relevant thread.[/QUOTE]

Contrary to what you think jsarno, your beliefs are opinion and not fact. And ummmm, he has looked good the past 2 weeks. I still don't know exactly why you have such a hard on for VY's turnovers. Dude's a second year player, give him a break.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Vince himself keeps this thread going with his poor play. That is not opinion, that is fact. You can't ignore ALL his poor stats.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Sorry to keep this going but I think we should at least be fair and give the man some credit when he does play well.

Last week he was 21 of 31 for 248 yards with 2 TDs and 1 INT.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;390600]Sorry to keep this going but I think we should at least be fair and give the man some credit when he does play well.

Last week he was 21 of 31 for 248 yards with 2 TDs and 1 INT.[/QUOTE]

Very true. He finally had more TD's than turnovers (although by luck, he did have a fumble). But he did play fairly well for a game.
Hey, even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while. Mike Vick used to have good games occasionally too.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

J, what's all the hate toward VY?

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

Can we please kill this joke of a thread? Every week I'm amazed that this drivel actually shows up again, and most weeks I manage to ignore it.

Why would anyone make it their apparent mission in life (or on the WP) to continually, week in and week out, harp on someone they don't know and have no connection to, and is not on the same team, same conference or same division as the Redskins? This makes as much sense as picking some random highschool discus thrower and talking ad nauseum about why we don't like him.

Did Vince Young steal your teddy bear or sleep with your sister and not call her back? That's all I can figure as the reason you would just single someone out like this.

It all sure sounds awfully negative and pessimistic for the supposedly eternally optimistic, sunshine loving, ever hopeful blessing that is jsarno. You sure someone didn't hijack your account and make these posts?

:doh:

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[quote=mheisig;390653]Can we please kill this joke of a thread? Every week I'm amazed that this drivel actually shows up again, and most weeks I manage to ignore it.

Why would anyone make it their apparent mission in life (or on the WP) to continually, week in and week out, harp on someone they don't know and have no connection to, and is not on the same team, same conference or same division as the Redskins? This makes as much sense as picking some random highschool discus thrower and talking ad nauseum about why we don't like him.

Did Vince Young steal your teddy bear or sleep with your sister and not call her back? That's all I can figure as the reason you would just single someone out like this.

It all sure sounds awfully negative and pessimistic for the supposedly eternally optimistic, sunshine loving, ever hopeful blessing that is jsarno. You sure someone didn't hijack your account and make these posts?

:doh:[/quote]

I'm going to stick up for jsarno on this one - other people keep bumping the thread, not him. If you take a minute and look at the dates of the posts over the past month, that is readily apparent.

Re: Vince Young overrated?
 

[QUOTE=onlydarksets;390665]I'm going to stick up for jsarno on this one - other people keep bumping the thread, not him. If you take a minute and look at the dates of the posts over the past month, that is readily apparent.[/QUOTE]

Good point, Matty DID revive this latest discussion. Shame, Matty, shame...

Still, who started this circus to begin with?

And now I'm prolonging it by responding...I think I'll go cry in the corner now.

What we need is a good old fashioned threadjack! Where's AMD and TMC when you need 'em? We used to jack threads like Carl "CJ" Johnson.