Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Ruhskins;671851]Just saw Rick Maese tweet that the Redskins have offered Levi Jones a 1-year deal. Does anyone know anything about this? I wonder if he'd play RT? Any thoughts on this as a possible line:

LT: Okung
LG: Dock
C: Rabach
RG: Hicks
RT: Jones[/quote]

I don't know about Hicks as a starter. Seeing is believing on that one and maybe a light will come on for Rinehart. And I hope that we had some young ones being groomed behind these guys. But that line might not be too terrible for just one year.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

Yeah Levi's been offered a one year deal but wants more. Probably won't find it and will end up here

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;671866]Well, not if the line ends up being "fixed" this year.

If we don't go line heavy this year, it's hard to see us ever going with more than a pick or two on the line in a single draft. We're in dire straights (straits?) now. We won't be in quite as bad a position at this time next year.

It's my conclusion that if we went line heavy in this draft, we could win a whole bunch of games and make the postseason. But even if we miss the postseason in 2010, I think our line will be improved. I think Heyer will get better, I think Rabach will be a little less confused, and if nothing else, we won't be as injury riddled this year as we have been in the past. That should help.[/quote]

I liked your idea (posted in another thread I think) of taking LT and then RT w/ our early picks. That strategy seems to give the offense the best "chance" of success in the next few years because even the best college QB prospect won't be able to develop behind the current line or even the available OL FA talent who could replace what we've got now.

But ultimately it's about player evaluation and availability. I think it's safe to assume Bradford won't fall to 4 [B]and[/B] that we're not trading up because it would just be too damn irresponsible. So if Okung is also gone when we pick and Shanny/Allen have Clausen rated higher than the next BPA...I guess we'll add a QB w/ our first pick. That strategy relies on a wing and a prayer Levi Jones has a good year or two left in him. Personally not something I'd be willing to bet the house on...and let's be honest Levi Jones protecting a QB drafted 4th overall is betting the house.

...I'm pretty glad I don't have to make decisions for the franchise this off-season.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

I don't actually think Okung will be gone when we pick. I think Detroit and Tampa Bay will have serious internal discussions about taking him, and I think Detroit is more likely to take him, but ultimately, won't be able to pass on Suh or McCoy.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;671873]I don't actually think Okung will be gone when we pick. I think Detroit and Tampa Bay will have serious internal discussions about taking him, and I think Detroit is more likely to take him, but ultimately, won't be able to pass on Suh or McCoy.[/quote]

Tripp, Levi as a RT...upgrade from Heyer or about the same?

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Ruhskins;671878]Tripp, Levi as a RT...upgrade from Heyer or about the same?[/quote]Against 2009 Heyer, he's a run blocking downgrade and a pass blocking upgrade, which I'd call a slight net gain.

But against 2010 Heyer, there's no easy answer. He's probably a downgrade, especially as a full-time option, but I can't say for sure, because if Heyer has maxed out his ability to block opposing pass rushers at the age of 26, then his run blocking (best on the team, based on the current roster) probably isn't dominant enough to justify a roster spot much longer.

At the point which Levi Jones can no longer handle left tackle, which might have been two years ago, he no longer has value as an NFL player.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;671879]Against 2009 Heyer, he's a run blocking downgrade and a pass blocking upgrade, which I'd call a slight net gain.

But against 2010 Heyer, there's no easy answer. He's probably a downgrade, especially as a full-time option, but I can't say for sure, because if Heyer has maxed out his ability to block opposing pass rushers at the age of 26, [B]then his run blocking (best on the team, based on the current roster)[/B] probably isn't dominant enough to justify a roster spot much longer.

At the point which Levi Jones can no longer handle left tackle, which might have been two years ago, he no longer has value as an NFL player.[/quote]

Not sure how confident we can be in this assumption going forward (though you would know better based on the details of zone-blocking vs Zorn-blocking:)). Heyer seemed to struggle mightily when forced to block into the 2nd level...struggle to find his target, quickly get to him and then break down to block w/ proper form.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;671873]I don't actually think Okung will be gone when we pick. I think Detroit and Tampa Bay will have serious internal discussions about taking him, and I think Detroit is more likely to take him, but ultimately, won't be able to pass on Suh or McCoy.[/quote]

Don't forget that Anthony Davis will be there as well. That guy goes from being my least favorite to now one of my favorites. Of course Bradford should easily be the guy if he's there.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

clausen > bradford

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

Okung > Bradford/Clausen

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=The Goat;671886]Not sure how confident we can be in this assumption going forward (though you would know better based on the details of zone-blocking vs Zorn-blocking:)). Heyer seemed to struggle mightily when forced to block into the 2nd level...[B]struggle to find his target, quickly get to him and then break down to block w/ proper form.[/B][/quote]Indeed you are correct, but not quite as hilariously as in past years.

His screen blocking is still fun to watch, at least in the abstract, not concerned with outcome of play sense.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=The Goat;671890]Okung > Bradford/Clausen[/quote]

2010 Okung >>>>>>>> 2010 Bradford

2012 Bradford >>>>>>>>>>> 2012 Okung

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;671896]2010 Okung >>>>>>>> 2010 Bradford

2012 Bradford >>>>>>>>>>> 2012 Okung[/quote]Certainly, it's hyperbole in one spot on the other. If Bradford really is as good as his strongest supporters advertised, he'd have some value right off the bat.

Agreed that his improvement curve will be a lot steeper than Okung's, as most QBs are compared to OTs, but QBs who are below replacement in their first two seasons tend not to improve to a point that would justify....that many 'greater than' signs?

My point is this: if we're not comfortable playing Bradford or Clausen right away, we're never actually going to be comfortable playing them. They might take some lumps early, but if they can't outplay Stafford and Sanchez from last year, they don't deserve to be high picks.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;671897]Certainly, it's hyperbole in one spot on the other. If Bradford really is as good as his strongest supporters advertised, he'd have some value right off the bat.

Agreed that his improvement curve will be a lot steeper than Okung's, as most QBs are compared to OTs, but QBs who are below replacement in their first two seasons tend not to improve to a point that would justify....that many 'greater than' signs?

My point is this: if we're not comfortable playing Bradford or Clausen right away, we're never actually going to be comfortable playing them. They might take some lumps early, but if they can't outplay Stafford and Sanchez from last year, they don't deserve to be high picks.[/quote]I guess that's my biggest wonder

can they do more than the people before them trusted to do the same job

at the same point it's not my job to figure that out.. so... yeah

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Ruhskins;671851]Just saw Rick Maese tweet that the Redskins have offered Levi Jones a 1-year deal. Does anyone know anything about this? I wonder if he'd play RT? Any thoughts on this as a possible line:

LT: Okung
LG: Dock
C: Rabach
RG: Hicks
RT: Jones[/quote]


Wow seeing it like this makes me pretty scarred. Even if we get a tackle with our first pick, this oline is gonna take a while to fix. I honestly believe we have to go o line with our first and second round picks, and still hope something else works out for us too.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;671897]Certainly, it's hyperbole in one spot on the other. If Bradford really is as good as his strongest supporters advertised, he'd have some value right off the bat.

[/quote]

You know that most likely thats not the case with a rookie QB. Plus if we got Bradford he wouldn't even start as JC would likely be the teams starter.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Ruhskins;671851]Just saw Rick Maese tweet that the Redskins have offered Levi Jones a 1-year deal. Does anyone know anything about this? I wonder if he'd play RT? Any thoughts on this as a possible line:

LT: Okung
LG: Dock
C: Rabach
RG: Hicks
RT: Jones[/quote]

I like it, but not as much as i'd like

LT: Okung
LG: Dock
c: Rabach
RG: Rinehart
RT Hicks

[quote=mlmpetert;671966]Wow seeing it like this makes me pretty scarred. Even if we get a tackle with our first pick, this oline is gonna take a while to fix. [B] I honestly believe we have to go o line with our first and second round picks[/B], and still hope something else works out for us too.[/quote]

i actually agree with you. good call.

so... i have to ask - do you still want danny to sell the team or have you just forgotten to update your sig?

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=mlmpetert;671966]Wow seeing it like this makes me pretty scarred. Even if we get a tackle with our first pick, this oline is gonna take a while to fix. I honestly believe we have to go o line with our first and second round picks, and still hope something else works out for us too.[/quote]

Hmmm, francise QB or franchise LT? Joe Thomas or Phillip Rivers? Stop being so short sighted people. This is going to be a two year process. I agree that one of the first two picks should be O-Line but lets not pretend that all of our problems will be fixed by picking two O-Lineman with our first two picks. All that did for the Jags was get them to 8-8.

You don't pass up a franchise QB and it's clear to most scouts right now that Bradford is that type of guy. Just pray that he falls to us, in which case you'll thank the front office in a few years.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;672078]Hmmm, francise QB or franchise LT? Joe Thomas or Phillip Rivers? Stop being so short sighted people. This is going to be a two year process. I agree that one of the first two picks should be O-Line but lets not pretend that all of our problems will be fixed by picking two O-Lineman with our first two picks. All that did for the Jags was get them to 8-8.

You don't pass up a franchise QB and it's clear to most scouts right now that Bradford is that type of guy. Just pray that he falls to us, in which case you'll thank the front office in a few years.[/quote]

You make it sound like it is the end of the world if we don't get Bradford. Jacksonville may have been 8-8, but they were still in the playoff hunt before they fell apart. Besides, there are issues in Jax outside of football that are hunting that franchise. Furthermore, I can show you a Miami or a NYJets as teams that addressed their line first, and then went QB (Jets) or addressed the line and were able to develop their 2nd round QB (Henne).

Tackles can be just as important as QBs. Given that we have a serviceable QB that could play for a year or two, it's really hard to pass up on a franchise tackle when we had the JaMarcus Russell equivalent of an offensive line.

I know Bradford appears to have a lot of talent, but in the end he got injured during his senior year and did not play the majority of his final season in college. I'm sure for the sane mind this is not much of an issue and players do come back from these injuries and can be successful. But you are asking a team to gamble on this player with those two things in mind (injury and not playing), and pass up on the bast tackle that can be a huge improvement to the unit that just lost its best player (Samuels), and has been a big contributor to the losing ways of this team.

If Jason Campbell had put up JaMarcus Russell numbers over the past two years, a.) he probably would have been cut and b.) I'd be riding the Bradford bandwagon. Outside of that, I can't see how not taking Bradford and picking up Okung would be the end of the world.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

I don't think it's clear at all whether Bradford is a true franchise QB or not. I think once he has his pro day we'll clear some things up.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=tootergray34;671888]clausen > bradford[/quote]

cocaine's a helluva drug.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;672078]Hmmm, francise QB or franchise LT? Joe Thomas or Phillip Rivers? Stop being so short sighted people. This is going to be a two year process. I agree that one of the first two picks should be O-Line but lets not pretend that all of our problems will be fixed by picking two O-Lineman with our first two picks. All that did for the Jags was get them to 8-8.

You don't pass up a franchise QB and it's clear to most scouts right now that Bradford is that type of guy. Just pray that he falls to us, in which case you'll thank the front office in a few years.[/quote]

when's the last time there was a "clear" franchise QB in the draft? Every year, the pundits claim a QB is going to be a franchise guy and its true about half the time. If even that. you've got just as big of a chance of getting a Matt Ryan as you do an Alex Smith or a Jamarcus Russell. This is considered an especially weak QB class and you want to take a 50/50 chance on a QB? Thats far too risky for me.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=The Goat;671890]Okung > Bradford/Clausen[/quote]

This.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

Apparently the team that drafts Bradford will win the next 12 SB's and the other 31 teams won't stand a chance. :doh:

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=Mattyk;672164]I don't think it's clear at all whether Bradford is a true franchise QB or not. I think once he has his pro day we'll clear some things up.[/quote]

Agree, still a big IF though he will be throwing in ideal conditions. Please go OL, OL.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;672177]when's the last time there was a "clear" franchise QB in the draft? Every year, the pundits claim a QB is going to be a franchise guy and its true about half the time. If even that. you've got just as big of a chance of getting a Matt Ryan as you do an Alex Smith or a Jamarcus Russell. This is considered an especially weak QB class and you want to take a 50/50 chance on a QB? Thats far too risky for me.[/quote]


i wouldn't take the chance either.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;672243]Agree, still a big IF though he will be throwing in ideal conditions. Please go OL, OL.[/quote]
I will say it again, we had the best LT in football for 10 years. Where did it get us. Both LT's for the superbowl champs can be got for a second round tender and nobody on this board thinks Bushrod(Saints LT) or Johnson(Colts LT) are worth it. Apparently, its the QB that really matters.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;672177]when's the last time there was a "clear" franchise QB in the draft? Every year, the pundits claim a QB is going to be a franchise guy and its true about half the time. If even that. you've got just as big of a chance of getting a Matt Ryan as you do an Alex Smith or a Jamarcus Russell. This is considered an especially weak QB class and you want to take a 50/50 chance on a QB? Thats far too risky for me.[/quote]


I agree! I rather get Okung at 4 and take a chance on McCoy or who ever in the second round. I almost bet Clausen will be there i nthe 2nd if we don't take him #4.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;672525]I will say it again, we had the best LT in football for 10 years. Where did it get us. Both LT's for the superbowl champs can be got for a second round tender and nobody on this board thinks Bushrod(Saints LT) or Johnson(Colts LT) are worth it. Apparently, its the QB that really matters.[/quote]

Samuels was a great LT, but he was hardly the best for that whole 10 years. further, we had fewer draft picks and more overall turnover on our roster and coaching staff over those ten years than most other teams have. Football is a TEAM sport. As such, with rare exceptions (peyton manning), one player isnt going to make that big of a difference. Having one great player - at any position, QB, LT, or whatever, doesnt mean jack.

IF there was a sure-fire, cant miss, peyton manning 2.0-type QB in this years draft, then by all means, we should draft him. However, there simply arent any QBs like that in this draft class. Similarly, Okung looks great, but he's hardly the best OT to enter the draft in 10 years or anything like that. Given that we have a team full of holes, the best thing we can do (other than trade down) is pick the best possible player who's there at 4. One thing is for certain, if the Rams take Bradford, Okung, McCoy, or Suh will be on the board at 4. Those are the best 3 players in the draft - by far. Fortunately for us, any one of those guys would fill a need on the team. We really can't go wrong if we pick one of those 3. In the long-term, thats what will help the team the most - picking the best player available.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=mredskins;672529]I agree! I rather get Okung at 4 and take a chance on McCoy or who ever in the second round. I almost bet Clausen will be there i nthe 2nd if we don't take him #4.[/quote]

I think there's a good chance Clausen will be there, but i wouldnt bet on it. McCoy will most definitely be there, and perhaps Tebow as well. Honestly, i'm hoping Brennan or Campbell shows enough to Shanahan in camp to make Shanahan feel he doesnt need to use one of our first two picks on a QB.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

I think at this point the redskins are looking to trade down. After seeing their approach to free agency they will need the additional picks to fill holes on the roster.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

I think when comparing Levi Jones and Stephon Heyer, you have to take into consideration that Levi joined us late October of last year and it took time to acclimate to the system. That and he really wasn't in football shape. This time around, with a full training camp under his belt and a little more resolve mind you, I think we're going to see a better all around tackle. That's my hope at least.

In an all around head-to-head, you have to account for that and I'd still give the edge to Levi Jones, by the way.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;672537]I think at this point the redskins are looking to trade down. After seeing their approach to free agency they will need the additional picks to fill holes on the roster.[/quote]

I agree. the best thing we can do is feign sincere interest in Bradford, McCoy, Suh, Okung, Berry, Clausen, etc. to increase the likelyhood of finding a trading partner. This is a very deep draft and it would benefit us to accumulate as many picks in rounds 1-3 as possible.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=12thMan;672545]I think when comparing Levi Jones and Stephon Heyer, you have to take into consideration that Levi joined us late October of last year and it took time to acclimate to the system. That and he really wasn't in football shape. This time around, with a full training camp under his belt and a little more resolve mind you, I think we're going to see a better all around tackle. That's my hope at least.

In an all around head-to-head, you have to account for that and I'd still give the edge to Levi Jones, by the way.[/quote]

we havent resigned him, have we?

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

Levi is still out there - UFA

Thought I heard the Skins offered him a deal but he's looking at his options

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;672554]we havent resigned him, have we?[/quote]

No, he wants more money, and he is in the same kind of situation as last year when Cinci brought in a rookie LT. I don't think he signs here without a) more money, and b) at the very least the promise he gets to compete for the starting LT job, and I really thinks he wants to be promised the starting job, which I doubt happens. Thus, I doubt he ends up in a Skins uniform. At this point, I am ok with that.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

we could certainly use all the help and competition we could get. I certainly wouldnt feel comfortable penciling him in as a starting RT or anything like that though.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;672561]we could certainly use all the help and competition we could get. I certainly wouldnt feel comfortable penciling him in as a starting RT or anything like that though.[/quote]

Most definitely; we need to get many bodies as much as we can get, but it won't be worth coaches' times if we try to sign some players who would not be happy playing with the positions that we ask of them to do..

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

[quote=GTripp0012;671879]Against 2009 Heyer, he's a run blocking downgrade and a pass blocking upgrade, which I'd call a slight net gain.

But against 2010 Heyer, there's no easy answer. He's probably a downgrade, especially as a full-time option, but I can't say for sure, because if Heyer has maxed out his ability to block opposing pass rushers at the age of 26, then his run blocking (best on the team, based on the current roster) probably isn't dominant enough to justify a roster spot much longer.

At the point which Levi Jones can no longer handle left tackle, which might have been two years ago, he no longer has value as an NFL player.[/quote]

Some other factors to remember/consider are that Heyer was hurt for most of the year and he's entering his athletic prime at 27 and could actually be improving.
Its not a big stretch to think that Heyer 2010 will be the best Heyer thus far.

Re: Time to Build an Offensive Line
 

LT-Okung
LG-Dockery
C-Rabach
RG-Rinehart/Mike Williams/Edwin Williams
RT-Heyer/Hicks

I view that OL as a vast improvement, thus making it decent, but with the potential to really gel and become a good OL

Without taking a LT @ 4 i'm considerably less enthused (although the OL would still be an improvement from last year, only because of how horrible they were)

LT-Heyer/Hicks
LG-Dockery
C-Rabach
RG-Rinehart/Mike Williams/Edwin Williams
RT-Charles Brown/Saffold/Veldeer?????