Is Russell really better than Quinn?

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

No way in hell would I would take Brady Quinn number one, or number two for that matter. I think he is 2nd round talent When I look at him as an overall QB, I don't see Peyton Manning, I don't see Carson Palmer, I don't see Tom Brady and I don't see Troy Aikman. I see an average to above average starting NFL QB. No more no less. I think many of the guys like Leak, Smith,Kolb and Drew Stanton could be just is good as Brady Quinn if they played in the same offense that he did. And that's no knocking Quinn cause all those guys are very good college QB's.

I could see Russell being as good as McNabb, which is really really good and a chance to be great. His arm is the best I've seen in a long long time. And that is why he is going to go #1. People see his overall potential.

But I will be the first to admit I'm not draft expert. All we can do is wait it out and see. Let's review this thread a year from now.

I agree 100%, if anyone is overated it is Quinn. Going into 2006 season Quinn was the Heisman favorite and a media darling at golden ND. A QB named "Brady" with Patriots Tom Brady's QB coach as his Head Coach. Alot was expected of Quinn and ND and it did not turn out well.
I think alot of this Russell/Quinn debate is heightened by the fact that ND/Quinn is on national TV every weekend beating weak teams like northeastern. When the time came to play the top teams Quinn did not shine and thus lost the Heisman.
Russell is in much tougher SEC. they were not on National TV very often and not many people saw him on a rregular basis.

This the same situation that happened last year with Vince Young/Matt Leinart. Leinart was on national TV all the time being on the multi-national champion USC. Leinart is a classic drop back, pocket passer that ran a pro system at USC for a former NFL head coach. USC played in the far inferior PAC 10.
Vince Young played in a college style offense, is an unconventional scarmbling option qb that also threw the ball well, but made his living running the ball as a QB. Texas was not on national TV all that much and Vince was not a big media darling until after they USC, even though they beat OSU in Ohio. Texas plays in the much tougher Big 12 than the pass happy PAC 10.

GTripp0012-
You talk about the repeated mistakes NFL front office make on players year after year. I agree and this is one of them. NFL teams blow it each year because of their insistance on certain criteria for players.
Like:
1) QB's have to be to be tall pocket passers. Says who? Eddie LaBaron, Fran Tarkenton, Steve Young were all scrambling, not very tall and had Hall of Fame careers.
2) Rb's and WR's have to run sub 4.5 in the 40. Emmit Smith ran a 4.6 and dropped to the bottom half of the first round. There is a long lst of WR's that did not have lightnening speed and had long/great careers. Art Monk comes to mind.

ETC. ETC

I could go on position by position about the stupid measurements the NFL team measure college player. What happened to the good old fashioned watching film and draft a good "FOOTBALL PLAYER" and not a combine work out freak.

[dmek25]

the thing that makes me laugh is when people say Russell is a better athlete. guess who had the better 40 time? and the better vertical jump?

[Defensewins]

Who cares.
Who was the better QB last year in real games?
That is what should matter. Not sit ups/push ups and 40 times.
Vertical leap for a QB? It does not come into play for a Qb on a football field, unless he wants to do the the Lambeau leap.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Who cares.
Who was the better QB last year in real games?
That is what should matter. Not sit ups/push ups and 40 times.
Vertical leap for a QB? It does not come into play for a Qb on a football field, unless he wants to do the the Lambeau leap.

I know that 40 times and bench reps and vertical leaps are not good measures of anything football, especially for QBs, but when the argument is that Russell is a better "athlete", and then you have combine numbers that contradict it, I mean, people like that end up losing their credibility.

You may think that who is the better athlete is a completely irrelivant arguement, and I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But some people actually argue that Russell is the better athlete, and aside from being irrelivant, it couldnt be further from the truth.

That is what Dmek is saying, and I agree with him.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I agree 100%, if anyone is overated it is Quinn. Going into 2006 season Quinn was the Heisman favorite and a media darling at golden ND. A QB named "Brady" with Patriots Tom Brady's QB coach as his Head Coach. Alot was expected of Quinn and ND and it did not turn out well.
I think alot of this Russell/Quinn debate is heightened by the fact that ND/Quinn is on national TV every weekend beating weak teams like northeastern. When the time came to play the top teams Quinn did not shine and thus lost the Heisman.
Russell is in much tougher SEC. they were not on National TV very often and not many people saw him on a rregular basis.

As much as Brady Quinn didn't deserve the Heismann last year, I mean he was so much closer to deserving it than Russell that it wasn't even funny. Remember, Russell wasn't even in consideration for the Heismann last year because there were a bunch of more valuable players on his own team (Landry, Glen Dorsey, maybe even Bowe), than he was. Brady Quinn WAS Notre Dame football last year. If we are comparing college careers, this isn't even a debate.

The guy who did win the Heismann certainly deserved it--but again Quinn's college career as a whole trumps Troy Smith's. Smith simply had a better season for a better team.

Russell was playing some very good football at the end of last year, but I'll be damned the day that playing half a season of high caliber college football warrents the No. 1 overall pick.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

As much as Brady Quinn didn't deserve the Heismann last year, I mean he was so much closer to deserving it than Russell that it wasn't even funny. Remember, Russell wasn't even in consideration for the Heismann last year because there were a bunch of more valuable players on his own team (Landry, Glen Dorsey, maybe even Bowe), than he was. Brady Quinn WAS Notre Dame football last year. If we are comparing college careers, this isn't even a debate.

The guy who did win the Heismann certainly deserved it--but again Quinn's college career as a whole trumps Troy Smith's. Smith simply had a better season for a better team.

Russell was playing some very good football at the end of last year, but I'll be damned the day that playing half a season of high caliber college football warrents the No. 1 overall pick.

I would compare the Russell situation to Carson Palmer. A little bit. Palmer did not have a great career. He underacheived, got hurt and never lived up to his potential until his senior year. Norm Chow shows up and he takes off, becomes the number one pick and the rest is history. He was drafted #1 because scouts saw his potential. Palmer is a top NFL QB now.

Despite what you think Tripp, Russell played has played well for two straight years. Trust me. And last year he was aked to do more. LSU ran all kind of pro formations. 3, 4 and 5 wr sets were very common. And out of those formations I saw this guy make some throws that other guys just can't make. Everyone ( coaches and scouts that do this for a living) say this guy has a John Elway type of arm. Now that is really saying something when people say this about a player. Can he benefit from playing a senior season? W/out question he would. He probably needs more game experience. But with that being said why are you so shocked that this guy is rated ahead of Quinn? He outplayed Quinn head to head. It wasn't even close. Yes Russell had the better thea but that's not his fault. I know Quinn threw for a ton of yards but so did Ty Detmer. These guys are looking at pro potential, not stats. And to them, Russell has the better pro potential.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Who cares.
Who was the better QB last year in real games?
That is what should matter. Not sit ups/push ups and 40 times.
Vertical leap for a QB? It does not come into play for a Qb on a football field, unless he wants to do the the Lambeau leap.

i think your posts would have more credibility if you didn't have such a hard one for Notre dame. i agree the 40 and the other combine stuff is irrelevant when comes to winning football. i was making a generalized statement that alot of people don't know. but i do think Quinn will be the better quarterback. how many people even knew Russell's name before they beat Notre dame? not many

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think your posts would have more credibility if you didn't have such a hard one for Notre dame. i agree the 40 and the other combine stuff is irrelevant when comes to winning football. i was making a generalized statement that alot of people don't know. but i do think Quinn will be the better quarterback. how many people even knew Russell's name before they beat Notre dame? not many

I grew up a ND fan and watched a ton of ND football growing up;I do not have a hard one for them.
Is it because I called them "golden ND'? Or is it because I said they did not have a very tough schedule this last year in comparison to teams like OSU, LSU or Texas? Those things are true aren't they?
ND to their credit does get extra TV coverage, bowl consideration and national title attention because of their huge following. BUt that is good for the game. It is like when the Yankees and Red Sox meet in the ALCS. Big money to be made. But I have nothing against them. I do not think what I said to be untrue or slandering ND in any way. It is the truth... right?
My point was Quinn had a lot of hype and was very highly rated before the 2006 season started. They were ready to give him the Heisman before the season even started.
Plus, for some to to blame ND's season on the rest of the team and excuse Quinn is not right. Quinn was the one that had the bad games and multiple interceptions in the Michigan and LSU losses.
Ben Roethlisberger Played on a much weaker team, Miami of Ohio and still led his team to bowl wins and many upsets of higher ranked teams. ND has much more talent that any Miami of Ohio team, yet Roelisberger still QB'ed his team to victory after victory.

[hooskins]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

This the same situation that happened last year with Vince Young/Matt Leinart. Leinart was on national TV all the time being on the multi-national champion USC. Leinart is a classic drop back, pocket passer that ran a pro system at USC for a former NFL head coach. USC played in the far inferior PAC 10.
Vince Young played in a college style offense, is an unconventional scarmbling option qb that also threw the ball well, but made his living running the ball as a QB. Texas was not on national TV all that much and Vince was not a big media darling until after they USC, even though they beat OSU in Ohio. Texas plays in the much tougher Big 12 than the pass happy PAC 10.

I think that is a rather poor analogy, because by no means is Leinart a bad QB. Also Young came into a situation with a decent Titans D. If you are saying that Leinart was overrated that is wrong. He clearly is a good QB who played well last year on a bad team.

If anything he is an example of what Quinn will be. A good QB who is undervalued and will drop in the first round.

Quinn will be better than Russell in the NFL. You can hold me to that. I almost want to say Russell will be a bust which is not true, but I think he will perform far far lower than expectations.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by hooskins

I think that is a rather poor analogy, because by no means is Leinart a bad QB. Also Young came into a situation with a decent Titans D. If you are saying that Leinart was overrated that is wrong. He clearly is a good QB who played well last year on a bad team.

If anything he is an example of what Quinn will be. A good QB who is undervalued and will drop in the first round.

Quinn will be better than Russell in the NFL. You can hold me to that. I almost want to say Russell will be a bust which is not true, but I think he will perform far far lower than expectations.

You should re-read my post,
I never said Leinart was not a good QB or overrated.
What I said was it was similar in that you had two (Leinart/Quinn) who were media darlings and were on National TV almost every weekend. They are your more classic drop back passers, playing in Pro Style offenses in college and coached by former NFL coaches. Many of the draft experts said Leinart/Quinn are more prepared for the NFL than the other two.
Plus add that Leinart/Quinn were drafted/rated behind QB's (Young/Russell) even thought many think they will not be as good early in their NFL careers. That is a lot of coincidence.
More coincidence, Young/Russell are drafted above Leinart/Quinn because they have higher upside. They have more potential to be better once they learn the pro game. Young/Russell were not on National TV as much in college so they did have as much hype. They did not play in pro style offenses in college.
I think similarities are many and my analogy is pretty good.

Regarding your comment about Young coming into a decent Titan D, the Titans were reeling at 0-3 when Young stepped in for a veteran QB with super bowl experience. A rookie stepping in to a 0-3 team and he made it work. Many of the wins were directly related to Young's great play, the 50 yard run in the Texans overtime win for example. You should not take credit away form V. Young, he played well enough to win all of those games and almost get them in the playoffs after starting 0-3 is remarkable for any QB much less a rookie that was not supposed to be ready for the NFL.

Regarding who will be better in the NFL, Quinn or Russell? I hope they both succeed, the NFL has a shortage of good QB's. I am not sure why you and some others are rooting against Russell? My opinion is much more will play into what team they go to, the situation that team is in and the playing time they see, not so much their invidual talent. They are both good QB's.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by dmek25

ihow many people even knew Russell's name before they beat Notre dame? not many

Are you kidding? Maybe my grandmother didnt know his name, but my grandfather did and he doesn't even like college football particularily. You must not watch a lot of college ball, because this guy has been a stud for two years now. I think it was his comeback against ASU in 06 that really put him on the map, right after Katrina had hit.

[dmek25]

if he was that big a stud, why no heisman invite? he made his name with the win over Notre dame, and his arm strength. to me, he is just another akili smith

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

More coincidence, Young/Russell are drafted above Leinart/Quinn because they have higher upside. They have more potential to be better once they learn the pro game. Young/Russell were not on National TV as much in college so they did have as much hype. They did not play in pro style offenses in college.
I think similarities are many and my analogy is pretty good.

Ok, but what is upside? Russell either will be really good, or he won't. There is no mythical concept of potential of which he will only hit under certain circumstances. Upside just simply refers to the growth that each prospect will make over the course of his NFL career. Every player grows. Is there any reason at all to expect Russell to grow at a different rate than any other QB? I don't understand why this would occur.

JaMarcus Russell will be 'X' good. This is a simplification of a simple concept. He's only going to be as good as he is. So what is Russell's "X"? Is it Ryan Leaf? Rex Grossman? Patrick Ramsey? Byron Leftwich? Carson Palmer? Daunte Culpepper? I believe he will be the next Rex Grossman. That is his ultimate potential. Until proven otherwise, its' reasonable to make a case for him being the next Donovan McNabb. That could possibly be his potnetial.

But to say he has "upside", you might as well be telling me that he's also got two arms and two legs. Tell us where you think he will be in his prime. He's either going to be better than Quinn or worse than Quinn. Saying he has upside is neither analysis nor a prediction. Maybe he will turn out to be a better QB than Quinn, but certainly that would be because he was the better prospect all along...not because of a belief that he grew differently than every other quarterback, correct?

Regarding your comment about Young coming into a decent Titan D, the Titans were reeling at 0-3 when Young stepped in for a veteran QB with super bowl experience. A rookie stepping in to a 0-3 team and he made it work. Many of the wins were directly related to Young's great play, the 50 yard run in the Texans overtime win for example. You should not take credit away form V. Young, he played well enough to win all of those games and almost get them in the playoffs after starting 0-3 is remarkable for any QB much less a rookie that was not supposed to be ready for the NFL.

Regarding who will be better in the NFL, Quinn or Russell? I hope they both succeed, the NFL has a shortage of good QB's. I am not sure why you and some others are rooting against Russell? My opinion is much more will play into what team they go to, the situation that team is in and the playing time they see, not so much their invidual talent. They are both good QB's.

Don't take credit away from Vince Young's teammates. I mean Young played the game consistently composed and focused for a rookie, like the good QB prospect he was. But he wasn't a good passer, and while his running was very effective, it wasn't as effective as he was given credit for. 0-3 doesn't tell you much, it was a three game sample with an inept QB (Collins). Young played about how you would expect from a dynamic rookie, and his teammates played some great football at times and kept the score close allowing one play to make the difference in a few games, and Young did his job. But VY's passing wasn't anything you wouldn't have expected from him as a rookie. He's still got a long way to go to get his team to the next level. Leinart was better in 2006 on a worse team last year. I'd bet the Cardinals are a better team than the Titans in 2007, and Leinart might be a pro bowler.

I'm not rooting against Russell in the slightest. I am rooting for Quinn. But I can asimilate them with past QB prospects based on college stats, and it doesn't look good for Russell. This is consistant with everything about him that seems like he shouldn't be a top pick. As Hooskins pointed out, he wasn't on the NFL's radar until January. Once he got on the NFL radar, he should have taken another year to prove that he belongs there like Quinn did. If Quinn had done what Russell did and left after his Jr. season, he wouldn't have been a good prospect either.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Are you kidding? Maybe my grandmother didnt know his name, but my grandfather did and he doesn't even like college football particularily. You must not watch a lot of college ball, because this guy has been a stud for two years now. I think it was his comeback against ASU in 06 that really put him on the map, right after Katrina had hit.

But even in this offseason, no one knew if Russell was even going to be LSU's starter. I mean, talk about someone who wasn't on the NFL 1st round radar, his own team was evaluating other options.

It's hard to argue with the way he responded this year. But he has huge red flags in both decision making and college experience, and yet rather than come back to get these issues ironed out, he left for a big pay day.

Would a lot of guys have done the same thing? Of course. But then again I guess that's why there are so many busts.

What Leinart did by coming back for his Sr. year could have been the difference between an average NFL career and a hall of fame career. That's how important another year of college experience is to a position as mentally reliant as NFL Quarterback is.

I think Leinart will be a better QB prospect than Quinn, for the record, but that Quinn will be a pretty good QB in his own right.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dmek25

if he was that big a stud, why no heisman invite? he made his name with the win over Notre dame, and his arm strength. to me, he is just another akili smith

I think you are overexaggerating a bit, but ultimately this is the right idea. He put together a dominant 2nd half of the year this year on a great football team, and all of a sudden he is the second coming. Quinn simply has been doing it longer. Quinn has absolutely proven himself a competant NFL prospect. There are just too many unanswered questions surrounding Russell.

All QB prospects can use more seasoning, but in Russell's case, it seems really obvious to me at least. Dude is not NFL ready, and thats not something that can change once you enter the league.