Joe2 Legacy2 will be?

I don't think people appreciate how disfunctional the redskins had gotten by the end of Spurrier. I was at the last Dallas game in which they were shutout and they literally couldn't get the various personell in and lined up before the playclock expired. They were dreadful.

Also, in the eleven seasons that Gibbs was gone the Redskins went to the playoffs once. Gibbs improved on that by 100% in the four years that followed. In addition think he gave the front office a better perspective on how to run an organization. Lastly, Gibbs brought physicality back to the team. Gibbs didn't win every game but I can't think of a single one in which they were out-hit. Teams around the league thought of the Redskins as soft during his absence - 2001 with Marty being the one exception.

I also think that Greg Williams deserves a lot of credit for the restoration of the defensive culture that some now seem to take for granted. I guess I've been watching long enough to still be a little bit surprised when four or five defenders swarm the ball and actually tackle as oppossed to what was routine in the past - broken tackle after broken tackle.

Interesting that you mention G-Williams and the defense, because while I think did somethings to set up this team to succeed....I think there'd be no doubt that without Williams' defense the team would have had losing seasons all four years of Gibbs' time here and his second stint would have definitely been considered a failure.

How can people talk about Gibbs 2 being a failure? That makes NO sense whatsoever!!!

When Gibbs 1 left he left behind hall of famers Green and Monk. The Hogs, and Clarke should be in too. Hey, possibly Brian Mitchell, who is something like 3rd all time in yardage in the NFL! Not to mention Charles Mann was a damn good pass rusher too! When Gibbs 1 left we were a team. We were a team that no matter if we were getting beat badly by the 49er's in the play offs or getting owned by the Giants in the Championship Game during 1986 or losing our first game to the Cowboys................we were a team that never quit. That never gave up. We were a team that took shit like Buddy Ryan's bodybag comments VERY SERIOUSLY and went back to kick the crap out of them later. We were a team that took care of each other.

When Gibbs came back he got a team that didn't care. Did everyone here forget about Dallas running up the score on us in 2003? Troy Hambrick had 200 yards on the ground against us! Troy Hambrick for Pete's Sake!!! How in the hell do you let someone as bad as him rack up 200 yards! THAT IS BULLSHIT!!! You know our players didn't give a crap about that game. You know they didn't care that we were playing Dallas. For Hambrick to get those yards and for our quarterback to have a zero passer rating; our guys quit. They quit on us and on each other. Smoot said it best when he said, "Half the team didn't show up to play today".

The team also set a franchise record for penalties in one year too!

When Gibbs got back here thats what he had to work with. I won't forget the first thing Gibbs did when he got here. He cut Jeremiah Trotter. He cut him just a few weeks after he got here too. Jeremiah then got picked back up by the Eagles and he immediately said, "I've always bled green". He Got rid of someone that didn't care to be here.

Next up was Champ Bailey. I was at the last game of the 2003 season. My seats are at the Redskins Tunnel and in the second quarter, on the other side of the field, I saw something that nearly made me puke. McNabb threw one of his infamous screens to a running back and then Champ Bailey came up...................and escorted the guy into the end zone. Touchdown Philly! I thought no way! I saw that wrong! They were far away! I missed that play! When I saw the replays later, I knew I had seen it right. Gibbs got rid of his ass! And got someone that is a staple in our offense! GREAT MOVE GIBBS!

Gibbs did a massive overhaul on our roster for the first two years. He was just trying to fix what WAS a very tough and elite franchise in the NFL. He was just trying to get the Redskins back to where they were when he left the first time. He cut Jesse Armstead and brought in Marcus Washington. Cut Iffy Ohalete and brought in Sean Taylor (RIP Sean). Traded Champ Bailey and brought Portis and Shawn Springs. Added Cornelius Griffen to the D-line. It goes on and on. It took him two years to over haul this team.

In his third year here. He had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with. And.............that sucked! He finally gets his team built, but they all get hurt. His last year. He again had a CRUD load of injuries to deal with and then his best player gets murdered. Gibbs wasn't going to lose like that again! He got this team to the play offs.

For those of you that think Gibbs 2 was a failure tell me one other team IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME that lost their starting linebacker, starting cornerback, starting quarterback, two starting offensive lineman and their starting Safety (Gone but not forgotten). Tell me one other team that made the play offs with all of that crap happening to them! Just one!

Gibbs wasn't a failure. He did something that seemed impossible. His team did it. His team never quit. They never gave up. They took care of each other. He's got this team playing hard against Dallas again. Heck, He embarrassed Dallas during their 'Ring of Shame' game. Embarrassed them again last year by holding them to only one rushing yard. This team went down to Minnesota, who was number one in the league against the run, and with back up lineman in there ran the ball effectively. He had this team, who had just come back from burying their friend and teammate beat the crap out of the Bears. Landry jacked up Muhammed too! He must have been angry about something...............And before it was over he went back to the Meadowlands and beat the superbowl champs in their own house. What else can you ask for? What!? A Superbowl? Maybe this year. Lets see if we can stay healthy and see what this team can do. And see what Zorn can do with it. Just don't call Gibbs 2 a failure.


Well since you are asking... the 2001-2002 Patriots, "Before the season even started, quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Rehbein) died of a heart attack.", they lost Drew Bledsoe, and had to deal with September 11. But still managed to win the SuperBowl.
2001 New England Patriots season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_New_England_Patriots_season)

Gibbs 2 should get credit for creating stability within the skins, but thats about it.
If i hire a tutor for a kid who skips school and flunks out, pay him millions and all he can muster to do is get the kid to pass less than 50% of his classes, am I going to be happy and rave what a good job he did? NO!

I agree that Gibbs 2 was way better than what went before it. And that's a big deal, no doubt. He did overhaul the roster, with some mixed results, though generally for the better. And he did deal with serious injury problems, not to mention the Taylor situation. Concerning Taylor, I don't think there's anyone else I'd rather have had at the helm during that incredibly difficult time than Joe Gibbs. So there's lots of positives.

But from the standpoint of what occurred on the football field (and yes, I know, that's not the only rubric), I still think it was a failure. The numbers are relatively clear, especially when you focus on the offense. And given JGs offensive performance in the first stint (see the 1991 team or the 1988 team, for example), if someone had asked you right at the beginning if below .500 ball with one of the weakest offenses in the league would be a success, you'd have said no way, and you'd probably have accused the guy of being a hater. So in that specific regard, I think it was a failure. In that time, the cow-roids have surged and the gints have won a Superbowl. Would you ever have thought 4 years ago that the gints would win a Superbowl before us?

In the final analysis, I think JG did a good job as team president and a less-than-stellar job as head coach. The rebuilding was a serious task, and we have him to thank for that (I agree that JZ would be the first to agree with that). But on the field it was not up to snuff. Given that massive expectations with Gibbs returning, that's a failure.

(Again, JG is among my football heroes. Just trying to evaluate things clearly after the fact.)

I think Zorns performance this season will change a lot of opinions. If he does even a decent job (9-7?) then I would say that all those other things that Gibbs did would be consider a success. However, if Zorn tanks it, then Gibbs rebuilding would mean nothing methinks.

Well since you are asking... the 2001-2002 Patriots, "Before the season even started, quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbeindied of a heart attack.", they lost Drew Bledsoe, and had to deal with September 11. But still managed to win the SuperBowl


um, so a quarterback, a quarterback coach, and a tragedy that hit every team (you might argue it hit ny, and washington even harder, and increased the rally for the "PATRIOTS") not quite the same as the list presented earlier.

Long time no talk fella's

I would prefer to stay positive and think that in a few years time, we will all look back and say "Gibbs built the team to win it all and Zorn finished the job."

um, so a quarterback, a quarterback coach, and a tragedy that hit every team (you might argue it hit ny, and washington even harder, and increased the rally for the "PATRIOTS") not quite the same as the list presented earlier.

My point was every team has it hard, the good ones seem to find a way to win. And it is very similar to the list, well if you dont like that one check out Super Bowl XXXIX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXIX), where the pats basically lost thier entire secondary having to have a WR Troy Brown play both ways.

Those 2 teams found a way to win through adversity, period. The NFL is based on wins and loses and if you want to judge JG2 on that, than he wasnt very good.

by the numbers, JG2 made the playoffs 2 out of his 4 years. How many other coaches did that? He didn't win a SB true, 30 other teams in each season would say the same. He is a top rung coach who brought respectabilibity and pride back to the Skins.

Here is a breakdown over the last 4 years:
3 teams went all 4 yrs NE, Indy, Seattle
3 went 3 of the 4 yrs SD, PIT, NYG
4 of those 6 are HOF coaches on stable franchises

17 teams either played in 1 or 0 games

9 teams went 2 of the 4 years. so at worst JG was the 15th best coach during that time and at best the 7th. with EVERYTHING that has been brought up in this thread i think he has to be closer to the 7th then the 15th. And far better then the years in between JG1 and JG2.

Here is a breakdown over the last 4 years:
3 teams went all 4 yrs NE, Indy, Seattle
3 went 3 of the 4 yrs SD, PIT, NYG
4 of those 6 are HOF coaches on stable franchises

17 teams either played in 1 or 0 games

9 teams went 2 of the 4 years. so at worst JG was the 15th best coach during that time and at best the 7th. with EVERYTHING that has been brought up in this thread i think he has to be closer to the 7th then the 15th. And far better then the years in between JG1 and JG2.

So basically you are saying he was an average coach.

An average coach with the one of if not the highest payrolls in the NFL, not to mention the highest paid coaching staff. Marty Schottenheimer was able to turn around the chargers in far less time, even Marvin Lewis made the Bengals (a perenial laughing stock) winners. Jeff Fischer has made the Titans contenders with not much to work with. Jack Del Rio and on and on.