The first debate

There are ways that the government can penalize, tax or give incentives to make it worth their while to keep jobs here. There is no legal obligation... just a moral one. America should stand for Americans... not American corporatons.

By the way... not all of us are inclined or qualified to start our own businesses. I don't know the stats, but you know that most businesses fail within the first year.


I think the root of our disagreement lies with what we believe the function of government is. One of the things I can assure it has no control over, nor is does it have any legal obligation to protect is job losses. Like I said in my example, what is Bush or the government in general supposed to do? If it forces companies to stay here, then other companies who can manufacture a product elsewhere for less will survive and companies that are handcuffed here will go out of business.

Just out of curiousity, did you read my post on the matter? When you work for someone else, you're sort of at their mercy. That's the way it goes. If you started a business, and you realize that you could make more money by manufacturing a product somewhere else for less, wouldn't you do that?

It works the same way when you buy something. If you go to Circuit City and find Madden 2005 for $49.95, but Best Buy has the same thing for $39.95, what would you do? Do you suck it up and say, "well, these people at Circuit City bust their ass, I'll bite the loss because I'm a swell guy," and fork over the extra 10 bucks? Of course not!

Businesses work the same way. They maximize profits so that they can stay in business. That's the name of the game in simple, basic economics.

Yes, I did read your post. I perfectly understand everything thats going on, I understand why business owners would want to have cheaper labor. The fact is, no matter what business owners want, this is a problem. Now I'm sure if you got fired tommarow and they were giving your job away to some guy in Angolia, you might feel different on the matter. If you think the fact that Americans are losing their jobs to these people is not a problem, your kidding yourself. Its a huge problem. Like Eeich said, were electing a president for Americans, not American business.

At the risk of entering a firestorm - Protectionism has long been the bane of overall productivity. Sure, we could enact tariffs, excise taxes and add other expenses to superficially hike up prices and make it more costly to do business overseas or for overseas companies to do business here. However, to do so: 1) Violates a number of economic pacts and will result in sanctions against the US causing a general increase in cost for goods and services; 2) would result in retaliatory actions by various countries, which in turn results in higher costs for goods and services. The net result of any rise in goods and services is will be some incremental job losses.

As to NAFTA, for the VAST majority of americans, NAFTA has created reduced costs and lower inflationary increases and increased national productivity.

The bottom line is that, with a world wide economic recession going on, the US has lost, on a per/capita basis, significantly less jobs than most other western nations - including France, Sweden, Britain and (especially) Germany.

The loss of a job is a traumatic experience. If it were me, I am not sure how I would handle it and I would certainly be looking for someone to blame as I, too, am a hardworking individual who routinely puts in more time than required. But as Beemseven said, I am at risk because I am not the owner of my business. EEich, you say most startups fail w/in a year - true or not, those people took a risk and lost. By being an "employee", you also take a risk - just a different kind; one which, in a very substantive way, relinquished control of your future to the whims of someone else.

It is unfortunate and, from what you say, undeserved. It is, however, not "unfair" as it is the risk for which you bargained by being an "employee". It is my sincere hope that you have recovered from the unfortunate event. It is also, however, my sincere belief that by allowing true competition, fewer americans will have to go through this traumatic and life altering event.

Two weeks before the attack on the WTC, the conference on World Racism was held in Durban, South Africa. The leaders of the free world did not attend the entire conference. After Bush realized how silly he looked with not having a United States representative there he sends Colin Powell. Powell goes to the conference saunters in late and leaves before the conference is over. Bush's assessment was that the conference was a anti-USA and anti-semitic event. The voices of the Palestinian,African,Asian and Hispanic people were ignored by this government. The reason for so much of the anger and violence contuing in the middle East is because of America's continuing defense of Israel which has not allowed the Palestinian people to establish their own identity and independence since 1948. Instead of sitting these powers down to get to the bottom of their discrepancies and work towards getting Arabs a piece of their own land in Israel , instead Bush confers with Saudi Arabia and the Bin Laden family who's only interest is selling oil and this is why Osama Bin Laden will never be found. Simply put, it's a conflict of interest. He who pays the fiddler, calls the toons.
What the conference in South Africa revealed about the Bush administration was that it is arrogant and short sighted when it comes to terroistic violence in America. Al Queda had issued many threats against the USA. It would have been wise to have the CIA present throughout this conference. While there were many legitmate demands made by many groups, Al Queda, Hamas and others terrroist groups have to had been present. This was the second attack on the WTC and should have been secured. Internal scobbling between the FBI and the CIA and even the New York Police and Fire fighters reveals how disorganized and screwed up this country is internally and will not be able to root violence out of this country as long as Bush is in office. John Kerry for president.

I've been unemployed for over a year because my job went to India. I blame the current administration

I wouldn't, dems haven't offered a fix, thats something you should be pissed at the management and stockholders of your ex-company for. globalization is going to happen sooner or later though, as much as it may suck :( just cause they're indian doesn't make them inferior...

by imposing laws to try and prevent outsourcing you also create problems... hiring americans usually means health insurance, SS, minimum wage etc... lots of overhead and paperwork compared to $0.30 an hour in china or a few dollars in india, meaning a higher chance that the business can't compete with other countries that are allowed to use cheaper labor and fail losing 100% of jobs. Australia tried that and a pair of jeans cost 80$+ there (entry level, not designer), and they've finally recovered from it, but it was a really raw deal for them...

that bin laden relationship stuff is BS that moore cooked up. that family has close to 33 children, but they own legitimate oil and construction businesses that don't have anything to do with osama.

Internal scobbling between the FBI and the CIA and even the New York Police and Fire fighters reveals how disorganized and screwed up this country is internally and will not be able to root violence out of this country as long as Bush is in office. John Kerry for president.

your making the mistake of thinking that because bush hasn't been able to fix, that somehow kerry can... i haven't seen any detailed proposals from him about how he would address the problem you mentioned above. In fact most of what i've heard is, I'd do it, but better than bush did without many specifics.

by the way:

GO SKINS! BEAT THE BROWNS!!!

just a reminder as to why we are all here.


That's off-topic for this forum. Please check "The Locker Room"

That's off-topic for this forum. Please check "The Locker Room"

That's pretty damn funny Daseal. :laughing-