Roster transition in the Shanny era

This is Denver's draft record through 2008 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2008&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=den&pos=ALL&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all).

This is Washington's draft record through 2009 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2009&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=was&pos=ALL&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all).

A lot of ink has been spilled on the quality of the 2006 Denver draft, and certainly, it would rank right around the top of any draft the Redskins had in the last decade.

It's also worth pointing out that Denver used to live in a world where Deltha O'Neal (who was DeAngelo Hall before DeAngelo Hall), DJ Williams, and Ashley Lelie were some of the more successful Denver picks. For a six year stretch between 2000-2005, that was absolutely the case.

The two best draft picks (notwithstanding the unfinished careers of talented guys like Clady, Dumerville, and Marshall) of the Denver/Shanahan era (at least post-2000) were Portis and Cutler. The first two Cerrato picks were Samuels/Arrington. There is probably a discussion to be had about the positional value there, but once you get beyond the comparable successes into cases like Sean Taylor (short, sensational career), Darrent Williams (much shorter, no less promising career) and Marshall (short, enigmatic career, had a career year in 2011 elsewhere), the only true thing you know is that the Redskins never stopped giving away draft picks even at the very end.
Not sure how this validates Vinny as 'a pretty good drafter'. Can it be said that at this stage Shanahan has a better 2 year draft record in Washington than any consecutive two yrs of Cerrato. That's a low bar but I'm trying to get your gauge of 'pretty good'.

Not sure how this validates Vinny as 'a pretty good drafter'. Can it be said that at this stage Shanahan has a better 2 year draft record in Washington than any consecutive two yrs of Cerrato. That's a low bar but I'm trying to get your gauge of 'pretty good'.I think that's probably not an unfair defense of the Shanahan era, and I suppose it's accuracy depends one who we attribute the Gibbs drafts to. More to the point, I think Shanahan has outdrafted Cerrato in each of their two most recent drafts.

Vinny's draft record can be validated only by his proficiency in the first round where the stakes are highest and comparatively by Shanahan's struggles in the first round. It wasn't coincidental that Cerrato's worst drafts came when the Redskins did not have a first round pick.

Personally, I'm not yet sure what we have in Trent Williams outside of someone who is both talented and young (which would be the top two criteria for a draft pick), although Kerrigan seems like a far better bet.

There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.


So who's exactly better at drafting in the NFL?

You lost all credibility the moment you said that Vinny was a pretty good drafter as well.

Wait, what?!? You're not serious I hope.

I'd love to read how you spin this to 'a pretty good drafter' and 'no problems with his draft work'.

You have to forgive Captain Ahab. He's hunting his elusive white whale(shanahan).


I totally disagee - the only years that Vinny had sole responsibility for the draft was 2008 and 2009. He used plenty of picks in '08, but had numerous busts, including Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. Our cavalier attitude toward draft picks hit its high water mark during Gibbs 2.0, when Joe Gibbs had final say on all football/personnel matters. To review, under Gibbs we traded the following picks that I'm aware of:



[/LIST]That is A LOT of traded picks. I'm probably missing others, but you get my drift - Gibbs deserves a huge amount of blame for tossing away draft picks, and we are still paying for that to this day.

You are right that Gibbs 2.0 is a huge part of why we are so awful today. He didn't give a shit about this team in the long run, and blew it all away for a "win now" that never materialized to actually winning. You are wrong on the fact that Vinny wasn't involved. Gibbs, Vinny AND Dan were all apart of the decision making during Gibbs 2.0.

So who's exactly better at drafting in the NFL?

You lost all credibility the moment you said that Vinny was a pretty good drafter as well.I don't know if it's your place to comment on anyone's credibility, but the point is well taken.

I simply don't know who is better. Performance in the first round disproportionately affects how I perceive someone as an able drafter. If you draft Ashlie Lelie in the first round, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't draft, but I'm also not going to bow down and kiss your feet when you get a pick right.

I'm not saying you should only grade a draft by it's first round pick, but if you perform consistently well in the first round, I'm going to consider someone an able drafter even if they can't build a team. I mean, if the Redskins end up drafting the offensive rookie of the year in the first round in 2012, it'd be really tough to complain about Shanahan's draft record. And heck, they might win something once!

I think Mike Shanahan does a pretty good job finding offensive skill and interior OL talents in the mid to late rounds. We haven't necessarily seen any of that here beyond the RB position with Helu and Royster, but if we need to get some TEs or centers or guards, I would generally trust Mike Shanahan to find able bodies. Body of work though is less than impressive.

My official opinion is that this is a lot of debate about two guys with a really weak track record since offense has exploded in the last half-decade, but if proving the dominance of the Shanahan era compared to the Cerrato era makes you feel warm and fuzzy at night, I'll be happy to play devils advocate.

You have to forgive Captain Ahab. He's hunting his elusive white whale(shanahan).It's not fair to say I'm out hunting Mike Shanahan. I would have checked your house first if I was.

Tripp dont you think Shanny has done fairly well with the Skins draft? Points taken with the history of Shanny (you stretch a little bit on the Vinny statement), but Im always of the "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Last year especially seems promising. This draft coming up will be the most important, could be his last if his QB choice bombs.

The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.

THIS was the main issue. I remember a interview where he basically said that a "proven player" is better than the draft picks, which was his reasoning for pissing them all away. He was a ****ing idiot to say the least, and I'm glad he's gone. It's also another reason why we were one of the oldest teams in the league because we had no young talent coming in.


He was involved but it's kind of foggy as to how much say he had when it came to shaping the roster.

According to Joe, it was collaboration of him, Vinny and Dan that made the decisions. Snyder on the other hand says it was Joe's show and Vinny reported to Gibbs. I'm more inclined to believe Joe Gibbs on that.

Tripp dont you think Shanny has done fairly well with the Skins draft? Points taken with the history of Shanny (you stretch a little bit on the Vinny statement), but Im always of the "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Last year especially seems promising. This draft coming up will be the most important, could be his last if his QB choice bombs.I think he's done pretty well. I think he sort of screwed himself along the way, but it's pretty remarkable that he's overcome that to even compete with the rest of the league. We've probably outdrafted 12-15 teams over the last two years, which is not insignificant, and impressive considering the circumstances.

His past inconsistencies aside, he's not going to be around long enough to be defined by what he does on draft day. He would have needed to have a heck of a draft in year one (as well as year two) to turn the team around quickly via the draft, like Atlanta did. The McNabb trade pretty much ended those hopes on the day it was made, and not being able to trade down from 4th overall iced that.

At this point, the 2012 draft is still really critical and potentially pivotal for the franchise, but we won't win in 2012 if we don't make smart moves with free agents and trades and have by far the best year yet in terms of shaping the roster. It's the most resources they have had this offseason, but because the Redskins don't even project as an average team right now, it needs to be a heck of an offseason to compete next year. They have to improve pretty much across the board and do it while finding a good quarterback. It would take an Atlanta 2008 or New Orleans 2006 type of offseason to win the division next year.

Let the cake bake guys quit trying to pull it out an stick forks,tooth picks and your fingers in it we've seen that too many times