Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=Beemnseven;378404]Even as I've been a harsh critic of Gibbs the personnel man, I give him credit for picks like Golston and Montgomery, - those are legitimate gems unearthed in what has traditionally been No Man's Land in Washington: the 5th, 6th, and 7th round of the NFL draft.

What bothers me more, is the expansive foundation Gibbs could have laid without giving away 3rd and 4th round draft picks as though they were ketchup packs at Burger King. In addition to the fact that those are picks we gave away for a guy who's not even here! Duckett lasted one season and was inactive for weeks! And Brandon Lloyd is right behind him.

The hideous repercussions of those moves far outweigh any positive personnel move he's made. If he were any other man than Joe Gibbs, on any other team that made that kind of outrageous mistake, he'd have been fired on the spot.

Has it crossed anybody's mind that maybe with all of those picks, the replacements for Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, Sean Taylor or Santana Moss might have been able to contribute this season when we're getting hammered by injuries?[/quote]

Exactly. I think a big reason injuries seem to devastate us so much is the lack of quality depth to fill in the holes. A prime example is how well middle round picks are contributing for us right now (Golston, Montgomery, Cooley, Blades, etc). Another handful of guys like that and our injury bug might not sting as much.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;378344]Remember when the Pats drafted Laurence Maroney with Joseph Addai still on the board?

I guess Pioli is a terrible GM, huh?[/QUOTE]

Are you saying Maroney is a bust? Addai right now is having a better start to his carreer, but Maroney is as, or more talented a RB, he defiently needs to stay healthy to prove it but that guy can play.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=offiss;378447]Are you saying Maroney is a bust? Addai right now is having a better start to his carreer, but Maroney is as, or more talented a RB, he defiently needs to stay healthy to prove it but that guy can play.[/QUOTE]

I think his quote was in response to your post regarding the comparison between McIntosh and the oakland lb. They're both solid players, just because one has slightly out performed the other to this point doesn't mean that their careers will end up that way. I think we've seen alot out of Rocky to be excited about in the future regardless of what the oak rb does.

If you use the justification that if player A was picked in round 5 and player B was picked in round 7, and player B turns out to be an equal or better pro, that therefore player A was a bad pick regardless of his overall quality, I think it's a flawed arguement.

Whew that sentence is confusing but I think you get my point. Using the same logic a qb who is equal or less than Tom Brady that was picked in the 5th round or earlier is a bad pick because another team got more value in a later round. I don't think that judging it like that is representative of the true value of a player/pick.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;378230]Even if it's 7 busts out of 32, that's almost 22%. I wouldn't say that's low by any means. And it definitely points to there being more to drafting than just watching some college ball on a Saturday afternoon.[/QUOTE]

So you think an 80% success rate is low?! From where I come from 80% is doing pretty good especially in something as speculative as the draft.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=irish;378453]So you think an 80% success rate is low?! From where I come from 80% is doing pretty good especially in something as speculative as the draft.[/quote]

Speculative?

I thought you said: [B][I] Anybody that even remotely follows college football can make a good pick in the 1st round[/I][/B]

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;378454]Speculative?

I thought you said: [B][I] Anybody that even remotely follows college football can make a good pick in the 1st round[/I][/B][/QUOTE]

Thats what I said and obvoiusly the % proves me correct.

The draft is speculative. The player is being selected based on his past performance and future potential (kind of like stocks). There is no sure thing but the 1st round pick is as close to a sure thing as you can get.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=irish;378475]Thats what I said and obvoiusly the % proves me correct.

The draft is speculative. The player is being selected based on his past performance and future potential (kind of like stocks). There is no sure thing but the 1st round pick is as close to a sure thing as you can get.[/quote]

??

You're flip-flopping all over the place. Once you get your take straightened out let me know.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;378478]??

You're flip-flopping all over the place. Once you get your take straightened out let me know.[/QUOTE]

I dont see how I am flipping. I know its hard for you to admit I am correct but I understand.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=irish;378480]I dont see how I am flipping. I know its hard for you to admit I am correct but I understand.[/quote]

LOL you're so far from being correct it's laughable.

Try to follow me, first you said "[B]Anybody that even remotely follows college football can make a good pick in the 1st round".[/B]

Now you use the word "speculative" to describe the draft which seems to fly in the face of your theory that "anybody that even remotely follows college football can make a good pick in the 1st round".

You don't see the contradiction??

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;378489]LOL you're so far from being correct it's laughable.

Try to follow me, first you said "[B]Anybody that even remotely follows college football can make a good pick in the 1st round".[/B]

Now you use the word "speculative" to describe the draft which seems to fly in the face of your theory that "anybody that even remotely follows college football can make a good pick in the 1st round".

You don't see the contradiction??[/QUOTE]

I think you are looking for a contradiction that does not exist. Just because something is speculative does not automatically make it hard. The draft is a speculative thing. Making a good 1st round pick is something that anyone that remotely follows college ball can do (its not hard).

Some things that are speculative are hard (like betting on horses).

Difficulty and speculation are not directly related.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=irish;378506]I think you are looking for a contradiction that does not exist. Just because something is speculative does not automatically make it hard. The draft is a speculative thing. Making a good 1st round pick is something that anyone that remotely follows college ball can do (its not hard).

Some things that are speculative are hard (like betting on horses).

Difficulty and speculation are not directly related.[/quote]

No, speculative does not mean hard, but by definition it does mean [I]'theoretical rather than demonstrable'[/I] which seems to contradict your opinion that anyone who watches college football can make a good 1st round pick.

Re: Gibbs
 

good points- though i don't think you can forget the draft picks that we gave away, and I also think its important to note that we wouldn't have needed fletcher is we resigned pierce.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=irish;378189]Anyone that remotely follows college ball can make decent 1st round picks...[/quote]


Ryan Leaf was seen by some to be better than Peyton Manning.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;378514]No, speculative does not mean hard, but by definition it does mean [I]'theoretical rather than demonstrable'[/I] which seems to contradict your opinion that anyone who watches college football can make a good 1st round pick.[/QUOTE]

I dont know how Webster's defines speculative but thanks for the definition. I was using the word in the context of making an educated guess. I think people that watch a bit of college ball could make a good enough educated guess to make a good 1st round pick.

Re: Gibbs
 

I think that teams get real nervous and overthink a first round pick. That's how you get players that have had solid college careers not getting picked before some guy you've never heard of that runs a 4.3 40 and reps 225 80 times.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=Buster;378521]Ryan Leaf was seen by some to be better than Peyton Manning.[/quote]Exactly, but to whom? Those people don't have jobs looking on the managment side of the game anymore.

Because those people also thought Akili Smith>McNabb, Vick>Brees, A. Smith>Campbell, Russell>Quinn...etc.

It was pretty solid opinion in league circles that Manning was the can't miss prospect, and that Leaf was the intriguing, more gifted prospect, but given the choice of the two, the can't miss prospect should be taken every time.

The better debate is whether or not Leaf was good enough to warrant the second overall pick. The Chargers obviously thought so despite all the red flags around him and they got burned. At the time, the Chargers had a knack for making moves like that. Then they got a smarter GM, ended by on the right side of the Vick vs. Brees debate, ended up getting Tomlinson out of the deal, and were able to add Gates, Merriman, Cromartie, Jamal Williams, Igor Olshansky, and Luis Castillo. 3 of which were first round picks.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;378530]I think that teams get real nervous and overthink a first round pick. That's how you get players that have had solid college careers not getting picked before some guy you've never heard of that runs a 4.3 40 and reps 225 80 times.[/quote]I agree wholeheartedly.

Landing a quality first or second round pick isn't rocket science. You just have to evaluate properly.

Landing a quality 5th or 6th round draft pick IS rocket science, and some would argue that it's flat out luck. I'm not sure which one it is, but the point is you can't f up on the early picks. The Redskins do not.

Obviously Carlos Rogers is never going to be an elite player, but he can be a solid CB for us in the future. Gregg Williams decided that Antrel Rolle and Pacman had too many red flags around that, and had CR as the number one rated CB on our board.

Arizona had Antrel Rolle No. 1 at CB on their board, but Arizona had a propensity to do that. For a long time, leading all the way up to this season.

Re: Gibbs
 

Has Rolle been getting burned? I thought at the time that he would make a really solid #2 cb one day.

Re: Gibbs
 

1st round picks are usually more no brainers than say a 4th through 7th rounder. But the bust factor for any player coming out of college can be the same no matter what round they come out of. Our problem of course, comes from lack of picks, so the picks we make have to be great picks. We have gotten really good young talent from the picks we had over the last few years. I think that speaks volumes of the individuals scouting these guys. hopefully our front office will allow these picks to stay with us in the future and we wont be scrounging for FA to fill in spots of need. Gibbs and Co. need to adopt this philosophy in the next year or two coming and really stress the talent evaluation for late round picks because with the cap and the possible dead cap money we are carrying will limit what talent we can bring in during FA period.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=offiss;378333][B]Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break[/B], Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.[/quote]

Who said anything about these guys going to the HOF??

I think the point was we do have some mid to late round talent on the team. Do we need more? Yes, but the roster is certainly not totally void of mid to late round talent.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=GTripp0012;378535]Exactly, but to whom? Those people don't have jobs looking on the managment side of the game anymore.

Because those people also thought Akili Smith>McNabb, Vick>Brees, A. Smith>Campbell, Russell>Quinn...etc.

It was pretty solid opinion in league circles that Manning was the can't miss prospect, and that Leaf was the intriguing, more gifted prospect, but given the choice of the two, the can't miss prospect should be taken every time.

The better debate is whether or not Leaf was good enough to warrant the second overall pick. The Chargers obviously thought so despite all the red flags around him and they got burned. [B]At the time, the Chargers had a knack for making moves like that. Then they got a smarter GM[/B], ended by on the right side of the Vick vs. Brees debate, ended up getting Tomlinson out of the deal, and were able to add Gates, Merriman, Cromartie, Jamal Williams, Igor Olshansky, and Luis Castillo. 3 of which were first round picks.[/quote]Bobby Beathard was the GM that selected Leaf. Yes, that was a stupendous bust, but to say that SD got a smarter GM after that? If there was a Mount Rushmore of NFL General Managers, Bobby Beathard would be on it.

Re: Gibbs
 

Well, it's not like Beathard had a choice between Manning and Leaf. The Colts chose first, and the Chargers were left with a need at QB and the word on Ryan Leaf was generally good. So they took him.

Re: Gibbs
 

The skins need a GM point blank. The one constant that we have seen through years of different coaching (Norv, Schottenheimer, Spurrier, Gibbs) is bad personelle moves. We have flashes of great drafted players (i.e. Lavar, Cooley, Samuels) only to be followed by horrible moves that hurt us for years (Sanders, B. Smith, M. Brunell, B. Lloyd, A. Archuletta) with thrown dead cap money and thrown away draft pics.

If we look outside the bubble that is the Redskins, the rest of the NFL is laughing at the skins for the stupid personelle moves. We alway look good on paper, but once one of the 22 starters goes down, the season is over, because we have no depth.

And to answer the question, NO, I dont think we are better off with Gibbs' decisions. I think we are in the same boat that we have been in ever since Snyder took over, a bunch of Overhyped/overaged/overpaid players that are great on paper, but when it comes down to record are only average at best.

Re: Gibbs
 

Wow I didn't know so many people hated Gibbs on this site. He did a lot of great things but he did alot of questionable things but what coach hasn't.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;378654]Well, it's not like Beathard had a choice between Manning and Leaf. The Colts chose first, and the Chargers were left with a need at QB and the word on Ryan Leaf was generally good. So they took him.[/QUOTE]

What's interesting though is that people forget that Beathard traded, I think, two first rounders and two second rounders to move up to 2nd in the draft.

And it blew up in his face. He made a bad decision, he's human. If we hired a "General Manager" so will that person. I don't know that people here realize that. I think there's some unreal expectations of what a "General Manager" would bring.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=skinsfan242;378084]I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.[/quote]

Maybe you've forgotten to compare Gibbs' record over the last four years with Spurrier's record.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=SmootSmack;378359]We're talking about a foundation for the future. Beyond the 1st rounders (Landry, Campbell, Taylor, Rogers) we have, in my opinion, selected players in later rounds that are a foundation for future. Such as the ones mentioned above.

There's vast room for improvement, no question. But it's not as dismal as some think.[/quote]

It's dismal. We're brittle and old. We have major work to do on both the OL and the DL, as well as at WR and CB. Springs and Smoot are injuries waiting to happen and Rogers looks bad. I thought Betts was going to be a top player after last year, but he's barely adequate as a back-up RB and Portis is becoming injured on a regular basis.

Re: Gibbs
 

Irish,

Look at the last 3-4 drafts and then state that just 20% of the 1st round picks were busts. Looking at 2005, I would classify the following picks as busts:

#1 Alex Smith
#5 Carnell Williams (he was under the gun before the injury)
#6 Pacman Jones (he hasn't worked out, doesn't matter why)
#7 Troy Williamson
#8 Antrel Rolle
#10 Mike Williams
#16 Travis Johnson (1 sack 3 years)
#17 David Pollack
#18 Erasmus James (4 sacks in 3 years)
#20 Marcus Spears (3.5 sacks in 3 years)
#21 Matt Jones

That's 11 out of 32. Moreover Rod Gardner-types are likely to emerge, i.e., guys who look okay now, but turn out to be busts down the road.

Contrary to your assertions, you did claim that it was easy to pick 1st rounders. You stated that anyone with a basic understanding of college football could pick quality 1st rounders. You then stated that you never said it was easy to pick 1st rounders.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;378213]I hate to be a copy and paster, but Steve Czaban does a much better job at venting his frustrations of Gibbs' personnel decision making than I ever could. Here's what he said on Nov. 9.

[B]skinsfan242, this one is for you:[/B]

[url=http://www.czabe.com]Czabe.com[/url]

The inevitable Brandon Lloyd career death spiral has begun in earnest. It’s just a matter of time now.

See, the Skins can’t afford to cut loose the part-time wideout/rapper right now. His cap penalty before June 1 would put the Redskins in a massive bind. Not that they aren’t already looking at a big problem for next year anyway. The team is some $10 over the cap based on just 43 players under contract.

Anyhow, whenever Lloyd does hang up the ol’ Redskins #85 (the same number as Darnerian McCants, by the way. Must be haunted…) it will cap a trifecta of horrible personnel moves that may never, ever, ever be topped in Redskin history.

First the Skins get penny foolish and let capable safety Ryan Clark go, and then spend quadruple what he was asking for to get Adam Archuleta. Then the Skins surrendered two picks for Lloyd, and ripped up his contract. Then the Skins panicked and sent two more picks packing for T.J. Duckett. In total, these three players will have given the Redskins ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on the field, at a cost so exorbitant, it hurts your head just thinking about it.

The Redskins under Snyder (and Gibbs has adopted this mantra, making it all the more infuriating) like to brag about being “aggressive” in their player acquisition process.

Aggressive, as in stupid, that is.

The Redskins under Snyder/Gibbs have nearly written a Player Personnel Disasters 101 handbook in just a few years.

Doing things like overpaying for marginal players (Archuleta), throwing draft picks away on a whim (T.J. Duckett) and ripping up contracts of players without them ever proving anything first in your uniform (Lloyd). The mere thought of a 3rd and a 4th rounder for Duckett, another 3rd and 4th for Lloyd, plus the millions paid to all of them is enough to make you sick. How come Danny and Gibby are too stupid to realize that they acquired three players who gave them absolutely NOTHING, at the cost of nearly $20 million in guaranteed money and 4 players who might be on their way to becoming stars.

The draft picks tossed aside so casually, could be an additional Cooley, Dockery, Montgomery and McIntosh without even breaking a sweat! If you ever thought that Snyder somehow was NOT the actual GM of this team, look closely at this unholy trio. They have all the makings of a typical Snyder move. It’s flash and bravado, and not a lick of common football sense. For Archuleta, he was desperate to rejoin Lovie Smith with the Bears. Arch had a deal basically in place. But Snyder just hates it when he doesn’t get his man. So he offered a contract so stupid, Arch just had to take it. Now he’s in Chicago anyway (and not very good) with Snyder’s cash, and we’re still paying off the cap hit.

For Duckett, the rumor was that the Skins just wanted him out of Philly’s hands. This would be typical Snyder too. Like the Trotter signing, he just loves to THINK that he’s somehow messing up other teams’ plans. And for Lloyd, it’s a pure love affair with the flashy. Typical Snyder guy. You want a stat that blankets this entire stupid Gibbs’ return? Here it is... The Skins haven’t had their own 2nd, 3rd or 4th round picks in the FOUR drafts that Gibbs has been here! (The selections of Cooley and McIntosh in those spots required re-acquisition of a pick from another team – for a future pick or more! Duh….) No NFL team can have any sustained success this way. It’s nuts!

And don’t even get me started on how stupidly some of the others were thrown out the window. A 3rd rounder for Brunnell. Gag. A 2nd rounder to help Denver fleece us even more on the Champ for Portis deal. Ugh. Hell, we even chucked a 7th rounder for James Thrash. Genius! Brilliant!

This is why I have come to hate Joe Gibbs 2.0 with a venom that has even shocked me at times. It wouldn’t have been as bad, if Joe 2.0 had made some big, but honest, mistakes in personnel. But these moves have been so colossally stupid from the word “go” that it can put you into a rage. And if you want to check the tapes, I objected to Lloyd and Archuleta from the minute they were announced, and was blasé at best about “Arch Deluxe.” So it’s not like I – or anybody else – is trying to play Monday morning quarterback on these moves.

I honestly thought Gibbs was going to tame Snyder, and bring about a whole new era of competent team building in place. Instead, the opposite has happened. Snyder has corrupted and co-opted Gibbs. It sickens me as a fan. Just plain sickens.[/QUOTE]

Point well argued that for the decent or good acquisitions Gibbs has made his handful of blunders have been huge. I think what needs to also be pointed out in this regard is that Gibbs' blunders have longer term implications for this franchise as compared to the good picks/trades. First w/ the cap situation, but also in trading away so many draft picks for players near the end of their careers and in some cases well into decline. Snyder/Gibbs strategy has obviously been shortsighted in this regard.

But I want to make the argument that this issue - of Gibbs' eye for talent - is basically nonsensical. His performance come gametime is the real issue in Gibbs 2.0. Suspect playcalling, baffling time-management, ho-hum attitude everyday and all day long; these are the things that define his second tenure.

In a statement: if Gibbs swapped places with, say, Belichick (whom I dislike but respect as a great coach) today, we'd see the performance of the Patriots decline, even dramatically, and the performance of the Skins increase for the rest of the season. The biggest problem week to week is what Gibbs does week to week and not from end of season to beginning IMO.

Re: Gibbs
 

Czabe got it wrong, we didn't trade a 7th for Thrash, we traded a 5th rounder.

Re: Gibbs
 

Guess vve should replace the GM's in the league vvith college fans if you think drafting is easy?
Nobody vvanted Tony Romo

[QUOTE=irish;378475]Thats what I said and obvoiusly the % proves me correct.

The draft is speculative. The player is being selected based on his past performance and future potential (kind of like stocks). There is no sure thing but the 1st round pick is as close to a sure thing as you can get.[/QUOTE]

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;378540]I agree wholeheartedly.

Landing a quality first or second round pick isn't rocket science. You just have to evaluate properly.[/QUOTE]

But evaluating 1st rounders properly [I]on a consistent basis[/I] is something that few, if any, teams can do. If the experts (i.e., the people who get paid millions to make picks) can't do it, it is rocket science IMO.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;378405]Exactly. I think a big reason injuries seem to devastate us so much is the lack of quality depth to fill in the holes. A prime example is how well middle round picks are contributing for us right now (Golston, Montgomery, Cooley, Blades, etc). Another handful of guys like that and our injury bug might not sting as much.[/QUOTE]

The lack of middle round picks definitely hurts our depth. However, the lack of middle round picks may hurt us even more by forcing us to turn our roster over. Without such middle round picks, we are forced to bring in aging vets to fill holes that those middle round picks would fill. In the short run, those aging vets typically play better than rookies and younger players. In the long run, however, bringing in guys when they already have 5 years under their belts forces us to turn the roster over more frequently. The average age of our players is 29 (among the oldest, if not the oldest, average in the league). 20 players on our roster are at least 30 years old (compared with 6 such players on the Cowboys' roster). Nearly half of our starters are at least 30 years old (i.e., Springs, Fletcher, Washington, Daniels, Griffin, Samuels, Kendall, Rabach, Thomas, Jansen). I don't know how others feel, but I definitely believe that such turnover isn't a good thing.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=skinsfan242;378084]I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.[/quote]

Good points... Get him off the field and in the front office.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=skinsfan242;378084]I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.[/quote]

In order to be a top NFL team we have to have guys that our at the top of they're positions and right now we just don't have the talent level. Even if we were 100% healthy we still do not match up with the top teams.

The biggest mistakes Gibbs has made is giving up draft picks for Duckett, Brunell and Lloyd. He's in year 4 and none of those guys are even on the field or on the roster. So you have 3 guys he gave up picks for that don't play. On top of that he lost the drat picks too. So what's that? 8 or 9 guys that could or should be contributing that are not. Instead he fills the spots with FA's that come from another system and it just doesn't work.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;379040]Czabe got it wrong, we didn't trade a 7th for Thrash, we traded a 5th rounder.[/QUOTE]

OK, so that's even worse.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;379144]OK, so that's even worse.[/QUOTE]

Yeah and although Czabe did a good job of listing everything Gibbs has done wrong, he said nothing about anything Gibbs has done right. I don't particularly care to go through every FA moves orchestrated by Gibbs, but guys like Landry, Taylor, Cooley, Campbell, Moss, Rabach, Carter, Washington, Fletcher, Rocky, Springs, Rogers, Smoot II, Griffin, and others are looking pretty good. If you're looking for a one-sided view of things, Czabe's your man as his brain is the size of my right testicle. If you're looking for a balanced view (looking at the good and the bad), look elsewhere.

For some reason, some people like Czabe have a hard time finding the good [B]and[/B] the bad in things. My cousin is like that....but he's 10 years old. What is Czabe's excuse?

Re: Gibbs
 

Not true. Up until the Eagles game, Czabe was taking it easy on the Redskins this year, even after almost blowing the Arizona game, he went on the air and basically said be happy that we're on the plus side of .500.

Don't get me wrong, he'll devour the Skins, the front office, the coaching staff, like a bloodthirsty wolverine if they stink up the joint tomorrow.

But if you've been listening to him, he's been very fair with them this year.

As for the acquisitions you mentioned, yes, there are a few guys (Cooley, Landry, Campbell) who give us youth and promise for several seasons to come, but most of the guys you mentioned were brought here for the 'win now' philosophy, and are facing the downside of their career, not the upside.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=BringBackJoeT;378118]Indeed, this is a subject that we're beating to death. But to respond to the challenge of "can anyone say when [Gibbs] steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were," I can't imagine I'm the only one who could very, very easily say that, if he were to step down today, we are NOT "light years" ahead of where we were. Again, we're going over and over this topic. But as that bastard Parcells proclaimed, you're as good as your record, and Gibbs overall record more than three and a half years into his second stint is below
.500, which makes him almost indistinguishable from the five coaches (Richie, Turner, Robiske, Marty, Spurrier) who preceded him (well, Marty actually had an even .500). As Boswell said in the Post last week, this team is mediocre. Period. If you're saying that Gibbs has laid a foundation for a powerhouse in the years to come, well, that's something I haven't heard too many NFL experts say. Sure, the so-called "experts" consistently show that they don't exactly have crystal balls, but I guess I'm just not as confident as you are that the current team is a youthful, soon-to-be dominator. Look, I'm not blaming anything on Coach Joe, I'm simply responding to your suggestion that he has radically turned the organization around. He hasn't.[/quote]

Rabach is the only offensive lineman we have who is not in decline and he is no dominator. It's also likely Portis has only a couple of years left, Sellers is no spring chicken, Moss is inconsistent and injury prone and ARE isn't going to dominate anybody. We've got Cambell and Cooley to build a future with on offense Period.

On defense, we can build with Taylor, Landry, Carter, Rocky and maybe Montgomery. Face it. We've got very little to build a future with. Out next phrase will be a rebuilding phase-- a painfull one. The organization as a whole hasn't performed above the NFL norm. Gibbs hasn't improved it.

Re: Gibbs
 

Don't you think it has been vvise for bringing along the future of the skins Campbell slovvly
Not do vvhat they had done before vvith Ramsey and give the line time to play together a little before having a lot of rushing on Campbell
Marshall played great on the corner and thought he could play middle as he did corner linebacker
5 games is the same as all of last year and the season is not over folks

[QUOTE=SouperMeister;378185]Aside from signing Archuleta, trading picks for Lloyd and Duckett, and allowing Pierce to leave for reasonable money, almost every other personnel move has had a positive impact.

My bigger problem has been with the coaching, more specifically the offensive coaching. When Gibbs returned, I just assumed that his offense would carry the team and that the defense would struggle. It has been the complete opposite. Look at virtually every top team in the NFL this year, and all of them take shots in the passing game. With the rules changes favoring WRs, Gibbs has been slow to adjust his philosophy to leverage that. I've felt that he'd be better off going back to his Air Coryell roots that he established as SD's offensive coordinator.[/QUOTE]