Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

I also think it's amazing that people think carlos rogers being disgruntled is a reason to run him out of town, he's disgruntled because with absolutley no explanation reason or logic we are trying to run him out of town.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

How is cutting shawn springs, resigning denagelo hall and carlos rogers who both have proven they can play at pro bowl levels at times not the only option this team is seeking. Shawn Springs is probably given us the least return for his salary on this team and why would we not be trying to get rid of him instead of our young CB who's just coming into his own in this league. On top of our FA pickup who we can get at a reasonable price.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

And for rogers on the interceptions, at least he's not running into people to prevent easy interceptions on top of not getting any like springs.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=WaldSkins;523147]I don't really consider him a locker room cancer. He played for a terrible Atlanta team last year then went to an even worse Raider team. When he came here he came to a team that has the talent to win. [I][B]Oakland is where players go to die, they call it the black hole because that's what it is a shithole.[/B][/I] That team is probaly the worst ran team in the NFL and the only cancer that team has is Al Davis.[/quote]

While that's true to an extent, there are still players like that DB who I DO NOT feel like looking up who still performs well on the Raiders. I think by comparison he looked pretty good when at least one DB was playing well for them.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=gaudiomatt;523149]I also think it's amazing that people think carlos rogers being disgruntled is a reason to run him out of town, he's disgruntled because with absolutley no explanation reason or logic we are trying to run him out of town.[/quote]

I don't think we were trying to run him out of town, he was just not starting at corner so he was whining about it. Personally id like him to start opposite of Hall this year but you never know with this team.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;523142]I don't think we played hardball with Antonio Pierce. NY paid a pretty good contract for him and while I think GW had SOME hand in letting him walk, we definitely would have been a little more strapped now if he were on the team with a similar contract to NY's.[/quote]

True, but we also wouldnt have needed to sign Fletcher, so we need to take his salary into account (not that I dislike fletcher, he's my favorite defensive player).

And also, if we hadnt let Ryan Clark go, we wouldnt have needed to use our #6 overall pick in the 2007 draft on Landry and could have addressed our DL by getting DT Amobi Okoye (my favorite at the time). More likely than not, however, we would have used the pick on a WR andTed Ginn Jr. was taken two spots after that. If we had gotten him, we probably wouldnt have used 3 2nd rounders last year on passcatchers who didnt contribute and addressed our lines then.... do you see the trickledown effect?

Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but if you can resign your own proven playmakers, then you dont have to spend money and draft picks gambling on draft picks and free agents to replace them. For the first time in years, we have a truly stellar defensive backfield (top 3 in the league without a doubt). We need to do whatever we can [I]within reason [/I]to keep these guys together so we can address other areas of our team.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

Now would you say that our backfield would have been top three if we had only Ryan Clark? I think we're both getting a little off topic.

I totally agree that we should keep Rogers and Hall. I don't like the idea of dicking over Rogers to keep Hall. All that being said, I think the money the Skins are asking (if that's true anyway) is more than reasonable for a guy who's already had two big paydays. If he knows anything about the Redskins, they aren't afraid to show you some money up front with restructuring if you prove you can be a team player.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;523157]Now would you say that our backfield would have been top three if we had only Ryan Clark? I think we're both getting a little off topic.

I totally agree that we should keep Rogers and Hall. I don't like the idea of dicking over Rogers to keep Hall. All that being said, I think the money the Skins are asking (if that's true anyway) is more than reasonable for a guy who's already had two big paydays. If he knows anything about the Redskins, they aren't afraid to show you some money up front with restructuring if you prove you can be a team player.[/quote]

No, i was saying our backfield was top 3 last year and it will be again this year if we can keep our guys in place (especially if Rogers and Hall are our starters). If we let Hall go, we're going to have to replace him. That means one less FA or draft pick used to address our lines. IMO our top two offseason priorities are resigning hall and not doing a D*** thing with Rogers.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

I doubt we would replace Hall with any FA out there. If he wants to be a part of the Skins great, our secondary is not close to our top two off-season priorities. I agree with Malcolm, Hall has had two BIG paydays, now its time to settle down and play. If he's not here that'll be a shame, but I doubt we will be looking longingly as he leaves.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

Hall's not that hard to replace though. I agree that it would have to be done, as Springs, Rogers, and Smoot will never make the trio they did at the beginning of 2007, especially since that trio included #21.

There are plenty of guys we could go after should Hall shun us, but why does that make sense for him? No one wants him, and everyone else could have had him for a tiny fraction of their cap last year, but no one was offering more than half a million to finish out the year.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;523166]Hall's not that hard to replace though. I agree that it would have to be done, as Springs, Rogers, and Smoot will never make the trio they did at the beginning of 2007, especially since that trio included #21.
[B]
There are plenty of guys we could go after should Hall shun us[/B], but why does that make sense for him? No one wants him, and everyone else could have had him for a tiny fraction of their cap last year, but no one was offering more than half a million to finish out the year.[/quote]

Who out there is better then Hall as a free agent??

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=WaldSkins;523170]Who out there is better then Hall as a free agent??[/quote]Asomugha is too pricey to be considered, but here are a few names that are at or near Hall's level who could be signed for less than Hall wants:

Dunta Robinson (Houston)
Daven Holly (Cleveland)
Bryant McFadden (Pittsburgh)
Jabari Greer (Buffalo)

Not an [I]extensive [/I]list, exactly, but there are other options besides Hall for us.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;523174]Asomugha is too pricey to be considered, but here are a few names that are at or near Hall's level who could be signed for less than Hall wants:

Dunta Robinson (Houston)
Daven Holly (Cleveland)
Bryant McFadden (Pittsburgh)
Jabari Greer (Buffalo)

Not an [I]extensive [/I]list, exactly, but there are other options besides Hall for us.[/quote]

I would love to have Robinson, but we gotta figure out who is gonna play opposite him. Is Rogers staying? What's up with Springs? Do we draft a CB? Yea i'd like to see Hall stay because our secondary last year was the best part of this team. We can't go into the season with just Springs, Smoot, and Rogers. Too many injury concerns.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

There is another angle to this I haven't seen discussed. Basically the bigger contract, especially guaranteed money, Hall receives the bigger the contract Rogers will expect/demand and I think we all realize Blache and the FO really isn't keen on giving Rogers big money. While they may like to give Hall more being that he'll sell tickets, jerseys etc the braintrust has to smart here. Also I would say Hall's negotiating position is relatively stronger than ours. Everyone knows that even if we somehow keep Springs, Los and Smoot as corners we're gonna be hurtin real soon (Springs injuries and Smoot general shittiness). And yeah maybe we can bring in another guy but none, save Asomugha, are big names like Hall who will add serious value to the franchise right?

I think Hall has to be resigned. If it comes down to cutting Springs completely to save space then show him the door... we need young, healthy talent.

Also have a question about the Los situation for GT or Schneed: would it be worthwhile to stampt the franchise tag on either Hall or Los (if it's even possible)?

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

Hall would be a good fit for this team. Why are people upset with trying to save some money on signing him? Are they really advocating the usual - 'overpay to underplay' mode of the Redskins FO?

If we sign Hall then we can look to drop Springs and/or Rogers.

Springs is very good but is missing more and more games per year. He won't restructure. He costs about $1 mill per game.

Rogers has never achieved his first round draft choice ranking. He's decent but has dropped more game-changing balls than I can count. He wants off this team. Trade him for a second rounder and move on.

Let us sign Hall and then we can comment on whether we pay too much.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=Dblock804;523113]What bugs me is when he wore the free Mike Vick shirt on that Monday night game right after the trial. Coach quit and he was traded... I was thinking that he would not fit "the mold" of the current players we have.[/quote]

He was teammates with vick in college and pros. He remains loyal to his teammate. How could this negatively affect our locker room chemistry?

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

This isn't "low balling" it seems like a fair value for Halls services.

I applaud the FO for not overpaying for players. If you have to go up a bit, you meet in the middle some where.

If I recall correctly Hall himself said it wasn't all about the money, yea right! Show me don't tell me. He played well for a total of 7 games. This 'deal if true' appears to be a fair deal for both sides.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=Carnage;523185]He was teammates with vick in college and pros. He remains loyal to his teammate. How could this negatively affect our locker room chemistry?[/quote]

and free Mike Vick.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

I wonder if this article wasn't a play by Hall's lawyer to help free up a few more dollars.

Signing Hall allows Vinny to drop either Spring or Rogers.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;523186]This isn't "low balling" it seems like a fair value for Halls services.

I applaud the FO for not overpaying for players. If you have to go up a bit, you meet in the middle some where.

[B]If I recall correctly Hall himself said it wasn't all about the money[/B], yea right! Show me don't tell me. He played well for a total of 7 games. This 'deal if true' appears to be a fair deal for both sides.[/quote]

EXACTLY. It's not about the money, I feel at home here, the scheme fits what I do well, I'm close to my home in Virginia, blah blah blah...

If he walks now, we'll know he was full of ish up to ears.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=The Goat;523182]There is another angle to this I haven't seen discussed. Basically the bigger contract, especially guaranteed money, Hall receives the bigger the contract Rogers will expect/demand and I think we all realize Blache and the FO really isn't keen on giving Rogers big money. While they may like to give Hall more being that he'll sell tickets, jerseys etc the braintrust has to smart here. Also I would say Hall's negotiating position is relatively stronger than ours. Everyone knows that even if we somehow keep Springs, Los and Smoot as corners we're gonna be hurtin real soon (Springs injuries and Smoot general shittiness). And yeah maybe we can bring in another guy but none, save Asomugha, are big names like Hall who will add serious value to the franchise right?

I think Hall has to be resigned. If it comes down to cutting Springs completely to save space then show him the door... we need young, healthy talent.

Also have a question about the Los situation for GT or Schneed: would it be worthwhile to stampt the franchise tag on either Hall or Los (if it's even possible)?[/quote]

Nothing you've said makes any sense. The FO is clearly keeping Hall, they're in a dispute over 4$M dollars and you want to make him one of the highest paid cornerbacks in the league. Halls negogiating power is not bigger then ours he's not breaking bank anywhere in this league. Rogers is going to get a contract similar to Hall if they resign him now if they wait till next season hell probably just make more money then he would if he signs now. It makes no sense, I repeat no sense to keep Shawn Springs in any capacity, even the people who think he should move to FS. Our 2 best defensive players are safeties already there is no reason to keep Springs. We're just going to have him suck up a majority of our cap space again and he's going to sit out any game he doesn't feel like playing.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=gaudiomatt;523191]Nothing you've said makes any sense. The FO is clearly keeping Hall, they're in a dispute over 4$M dollars and you want to make him one of the highest paid cornerbacks in the league. Halls negogiating power is not bigger then ours he's not breaking bank anywhere in this league. Rogers is going to get a contract similar to Hall if they resign him now if they wait till next season hell probably just make more money then he would if he signs now. It makes no sense, I repeat no sense to keep Shawn Springs in any capacity, even the people who think he should move to FS. [B]Our 2 best defensive players are safeties already[/B] there is no reason to keep Springs. We're just going to have him suck up a majority of our cap space again and he's going to sit out any game he doesn't feel like playing.[/quote]

I know this isn't the gist of your argument or this thread, but huh?? Landry is one of our best defensive players, but who is the other? Horton? No way. A young talent developing into a very good player, sure. But better than Fletcher, Rogers, Hall, even Springs, Andre Carter... I don't know if he's in the top 5 of our best defensive players.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2009/return-al-harris]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008[/url]

If DeAngelo Hall can parlay 7 great games at CB into a 16 million dollar SB, I wonder what 15 games of hardcore Redskins analysis is worth?

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=The Goat;523182]There is another angle to this I haven't seen discussed. Basically the bigger contract, especially guaranteed money, Hall receives the bigger the contract Rogers will expect/demand and I think we all realize Blache and the FO really isn't keen on giving Rogers big money. While they may like to give Hall more being that he'll sell tickets, jerseys etc the braintrust has to smart here. Also I would say Hall's negotiating position is relatively stronger than ours. Everyone knows that even if we somehow keep Springs, Los and Smoot as corners we're gonna be hurtin real soon (Springs injuries and Smoot general shittiness). And yeah maybe we can bring in another guy but none, save Asomugha, are big names like Hall who will add serious value to the franchise right?

I think Hall has to be resigned. If it comes down to cutting Springs completely to save space then show him the door... we need young, healthy talent.

Also have a question about the Los situation for GT or Schneed: would it be worthwhile to stampt the franchise tag on either Hall or Los (if it's even possible)?[/quote]With no cap next year, there is no cap penalty for tagging anyone (obviously), and on top of that, we get two ADDITIONAL franchise tags. It's suffice to say we would use all three if there were enough players hitting free agency that you would want to keep.

Our payroll next season (2010) is likely going to hit 160-170 million, but the talent won't seem like it. The reasoning being that the Redskins never use the franchise tag because there is simply no room in their cap strategies for a player to be tendered. With no cap, we'd probably abuse the franchise tag.

The point is: Rogers is an RFA after next year anyway, wouldn't even need to be tagged, Hall is probably in under a long term deal anyway, so he'll be under contract.

The unlikely candidates for the franchise tender in 2010: Shawn Springs and/or Jason Taylor.

Carlos Rogers will certainly be here for each of the next two seasons unless we get blown away with an offer. After that, who knows? Two of his best years at basically no cost to us...of course Rogers is going to want to get a long-term deal done now. The team holds all of the leverage, and Rogers knows that.

On the other hand, Hall holds most of the leverage in these negotiations, but only if the Redskins buy the fact that he has other suitors. I don't. I think that's crap. The Redskins are only bidding against themselves here.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

does anyone have the stats on him? thrown at vs completed ratio?

I'd like to see Hall a redskins, but I do believe it prudent to think before spending a lot of money...

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=BrunellMVP?;523198]does anyone have the stats on him? thrown at vs completed ratio?

I'd like to see Hall a redskins, but I do believe it prudent to think before spending a lot of money...[/quote][url=http://redskinshogheaven.com/2009/01/final-redskins-defensive-individual-statistics-and-awards.html]FINAL Redskins Defensive Individual Statistics and Awards - Hog Heaven[/url]

Or

[url]http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2009/return-al-harris[/url]


Basically:

Redskins DeAngelo Hall = one of the best seasons of the year
Raiders DeAngelo Hall = one of the worst seasons of the year
Actual DeAngelo Hall = somewhere close to the average of the two results

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;523196]With no cap next year, there is no cap penalty for tagging anyone (obviously), and on top of that, we get two ADDITIONAL franchise tags. It's suffice to say we would use all three if there were enough players hitting free agency that you would want to keep.

Our payroll next season (2010) is likely going to hit 160-170 million, but the talent won't seem like it. The reasoning being that the Redskins never use the franchise tag because there is simply no room in their cap strategies for a player to be tendered. With no cap, we'd probably abuse the franchise tag.

The point is: Rogers is an RFA after next year anyway, wouldn't even need to be tagged, Hall is probably in under a long term deal anyway, so he'll be under contract.

The unlikely candidates for the franchise tender in 2010: Shawn Springs and/or Jason Taylor.

Carlos Rogers will certainly be here for each of the next two seasons unless we get blown away with an offer. After that, who knows? Two of his best years at basically no cost to us...of course Rogers is going to want to get a long-term deal done now. The team holds all of the leverage, and Rogers knows that.

On the other hand, [B]Hall holds most of the leverage in these negotiations, but only if the Redskins buy the fact that he has other suitors. I don't. I think that's crap.[/B] The Redskins are only bidding against themselves here.[/quote]

Would you say the 12m guaranteed is even too high then or in line w/ Hall's value? What I mean is this another case of the FO actually overpaying a player (treating Hall like a FA LOL)?

... thanks for the explanation on Rogers but it raises another question: w/ Los wrapped up for another two years (during his prime btw) and at a relatively reasonable price [B]why this talk of trading the kid?[/B]

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2009/return-al-harris]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008[/url]

Great article ranking top corners...C-rogers is actually a top 10...

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

I haven't heard anything about any negotiations with Hall, other than they'd like to sign him. I don't know where this $16 million is coming from but I suspect it's tied to the $16 million he was passed up when the Raiders waived him.

But if I were to assume that the $12 million and $16 million is accurate, then I would guess that one side came with one number and the other side said "No, that's too much (or too little)" and they'll meet somewhere in the middle. Because that's generally how negotiations work.

I hope we keep him because he's young, talented, and makes plays. I hope we keep all our defensive backs actually. It's a strong unit overall.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=Schneed10;523100]It would be no surprise to me if it's true that Vinny wants to keep the guaranteed money lower. He has to be concerned about the team's cap situation and knows he needs to keep as much room available to maneuver, or he's going to lose out on free agency altogether.

On a 6 year deal, $12 million guaranteed would take up $2 million in 2009 cap space. $16 million would take up $2.7 million. That's a big difference, an amount that would allow for one additional quality-depth guy in free agency.

[B]It's also quite possible that the Redskins are betting Hall won't be able to do better. Revenue streams are in decline for NFL franchises due to the economy. There may be a lot of teams simply unwilling to pay it.[/B]

The way I see it, we should be thanking Vinny here. He's trying to keep a cool head, locking good players up for a reasonable amount. Would you rather he spend $20 million guaranteed on a Nate Clements type like the 49ers did?[/quote]

Great point. As much as I think Vinny is just Dan's bitch, I think this is a smart move if the story is true. This is going to be a real quiet free agent year. The money is just not going to be there.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=The Goat;523211]Would you say the 12m guaranteed is even too high then or in line w/ Hall's value? What I mean is this another case of the FO actually overpaying a player (treating Hall like a FA LOL)?

... thanks for the explanation on Rogers but it raises another question: w/ Los wrapped up for another two years (during his prime btw) and at a relatively reasonable price [B]why this talk of trading the kid?[/B][/quote]I have no idea what the going rate for a very young league average corner with potential will be the current economic climate, but I'm guessing that 12 million is not grossly overpaying for his services, especially if the contract extends to or past the time he's 30. 16 million...probably at that point, we're talking elite CB level, which Hall has never been.

And trading Rogers makes no logical sense, which means that I'm inclined to tie this one to Greg Blache (and reports back this). But I've never taken the Rogers rumors too seriously. He's a top ten NFL corner, he's not going anywhere in the immediate.

A year from now, we could be seriously shopping him, but I highly doubt we'll do it for anything but an obscene offer this year. The only player in free agency who could replace Rogers is Asomugha, and if the problem with Rogers is a money thing, well then...

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=Dblock804;523113]What bugs me is when he wore the free Mike Vick shirt on that Monday night game right after the trial. Coach quit and he was traded... I was thinking that he would not fit "the mold" of the current players we have.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that was Roddy White.

People are talking about us signing Hall to a monster deal, but the numbers are pretty modest for an above average starting corner in this league, especially given some of the deals that have been dished out over the last two offseasons (not by us btw). I don't see this as anything to freak out over.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=The Goat;523182]There is another angle to this I haven't seen discussed. Basically the bigger contract, especially guaranteed money, Hall receives the bigger the contract Rogers will expect/demand and I think we all realize Blache and the FO really isn't keen on giving Rogers big money. While they may like to give Hall more being that he'll sell tickets, jerseys etc the braintrust has to smart here. Also I would say Hall's negotiating position is relatively stronger than ours. Everyone knows that even if we somehow keep Springs, Los and Smoot as corners we're gonna be hurtin real soon (Springs injuries and Smoot general shittiness). And yeah maybe we can bring in another guy but none, save Asomugha, are big names like Hall who will add serious value to the franchise right?

I think Hall has to be resigned. If it comes down to cutting Springs completely to save space then show him the door... we need young, healthy talent.

Also have a question about the Los situation for GT or Schneed: would it be worthwhile to stampt the franchise tag on either Hall or Los (if it's even possible)?[/quote]

I know that I'm not schneed or gt, but I can't see paying Rogers or Hall top 5 type money if they work this CBA thing out

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=gaudiomatt;523191]Our 2 best defensive players are safeties .[/quote]

Hrmmmmmmm

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

Hall asking price is very reasonable 16 mil compared to the 23 mil Chris Gamble got. Deangelo Hall is a top ten corner period, and he's asking for 16 mil which is generous given that he has been known to go higher. He's 25 in his prime while Rogers is freakin 28 and drafted a year later. Re sign Hall and wait one year for Rogers.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

we need to keep him whatever it takes give him the money vinny you ignorant peabrain

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

While I want Vinny to re-sign Hall, I want it to be at a discount. He doesn't deserve anything that remotely approaches Asante Samuel money - he's not that good. And anyway, that's the price Hall must pay for being a knucklehead in Atlanta. He is somewhat of a risk, so I see this as a reasonable first offer. The minute the Danny overpays someone, we're quick to jump all over the FO. This type of prudence is a nice change if we can bring Hall in at a good value.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

[quote=redskinjim;523267]we need to keep him whatever it takes give him the money vinny you ignorant peabrain[/quote]

Of course, if we give him whatever it takes and he tanks then you'll just call cerrato an ignorant peabrain for signing Hall

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

He definatly is no Asante. So dont compare them. But he is the guy with the youth and the skills that the Redskins need. I don't think he would lay down after being paid. Why would he? That can be said of any player. I'm not sure why were afraid of him. He's also not afraid to come off his man to make or assist in tackles. Personally I like what I see from Hall. Offer him 14M Sign him and move on.

Re: Redskins "Low-balling" Hall (Allegedly)
 

Perhaps an easier question might be. If we do not do a deal with him, who will we look to the will be a better fit/value, etc?