Gibbs
 

I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.

Re: Gibbs
 

Not to be a dick but this has been said ad nauseam. Try the search feature... That said, I do agree with everything you posted.

Re: Gibbs
 

The only problem with that is that if he were to leave, this team won't have much of future because Washington looks like his career is going to start to tail off, Rabach is still solid, but Fletcher is 32, Griffin is almost done, and Santana Moss...well, he looks like Santana Moss again. The guy was always injured and inconsistent in NY and now he's doing the same thing here. He's only had 2 1000+ yard receiving years out of 7 in the league, it's not that he can't play, he just can't stay healthy and that leads to inconsistency. As for Randle El, he should be solid for the foreseeable future, but outside of that, this team is not that well prepared to make a long run into the future.

None of this should be misconstrued as being a "hater," I really like all of these guys, but they don't have much time left and this team needs to start getting younger. I like the mix they have, and by no means are the Skins the oldest team in the NFL or even that close to it, but there does need to be some infusion of young talent on the offensive side of the ball and some more of it on the D Line.

Also, Marty "found" Ethan Albright who was already in the league for 5 years.

Re: Gibbs
 

all great points. Good post

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;378090]The only problem with that is that if he were to leave, this team won't have much of future because Washington looks like his career is going to start to tail off, Rabach is still solid, but Fletcher is 32, Griffin is almost done, and Santana Moss...well, he looks like Santana Moss again. The guy was always injured and inconsistent in NY and now he's doing the same thing here. He's only had 2 1000+ yard receiving years out of 7 in the league, it's not that he can't play, he just can't stay healthy and that leads to inconsistency. As for Randle El, he should be solid for the foreseeable future, but outside of that, this team is not that well prepared to make a long run into the future.

None of this should be misconstrued as being a "hater," I really like all of these guys, but they don't have much time left and this team needs to start getting younger. I like the mix they have, and by no means are the Skins the oldest team in the NFL or even that close to it, but there does need to be some infusion of young talent on the offensive side of the ball and some more of it on the D Line.

Also, Marty "found" Ethan Albright who was already in the league for 5 years.[/QUOTE]

We have HB Blades in the wings to replace Fletcher, I wouldn't be surprised if is an impact player next year. Michael Espy to replace Moss (yes I think he's that good) only concern is coming back from injury.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan242;378084]I know half the people don't agree with what Gibbs has done but lets take a look back.

He drafted C. Rogers over M. Williams (who I know everyone wanted). How did that end up?

We got Portis and Springs essentially for Bailey and T. Bell.

We Got M. Washington, C. Griffin, C. Rabach, L. Fletcher, Randle El, Moss

We Drafted J. Campbell, S. Taylor, L. Landry, R. McIntosh, A. Montgomery, K. Golston

Didn't overpay Smoot and then brought him back for much less

We found C. Wilson. L. Alexander, S. Suisham, E. Albright

We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.

He built a physical team from Spurriers mess he left us with.

We are complaining about a WINNING record when we haven't won anything in 16 years.

Sure there were a few mishaps Lloyd, Archuleta, Clark.

But can anyone say when if he steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were? I didn't think so.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, this is a subject that we're beating to death. But to respond to the challenge of "can anyone say when [Gibbs] steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were," I can't imagine I'm the only one who could very, very easily say that, if he were to step down today, we are NOT "light years" ahead of where we were. Again, we're going over and over this topic. But as that bastard Parcells proclaimed, you're as good as your record, and Gibbs overall record more than three and a half years into his second stint is below
.500, which makes him almost indistinguishable from the five coaches (Richie, Turner, Robiske, Marty, Spurrier) who preceded him (well, Marty actually had an even .500). As Boswell said in the Post last week, this team is mediocre. Period. If you're saying that Gibbs has laid a foundation for a powerhouse in the years to come, well, that's something I haven't heard too many NFL experts say. Sure, the so-called "experts" consistently show that they don't exactly have crystal balls, but I guess I'm just not as confident as you are that the current team is a youthful, soon-to-be dominator. Look, I'm not blaming anything on Coach Joe, I'm simply responding to your suggestion that he has radically turned the organization around. He hasn't.

Re: Gibbs
 

I think this is an important point. Joe Gibbs has made this a much better organization than it was before he came back from retirement. In terms of personnel moves, stability and character, we are far closer to being the "old Redskins" than we were under Turner or Spurrier. (To be honest, I think Schottenheimer had us on the right track, too...)

I know that I greatly underestimated how big of a mess Spurrier left behind here - and I think other did as well. In many ways, we were well on our way to becoming the Lions or the Cardinals - consistent losers with a bad front office.

So, while Joe Gibbs hasn't gotten us a fourth Lombardy trophy (yet), but we are back on the path to respectability. And a hard loss to the Eagles doesn't change that fact.

Re: Gibbs
 

Uh, he didn't find Ethan Albright.... feels like Albright has been around since his first tenure, but Albright was here before Gibbs 2.0

Re: Gibbs
 

Gibbs is, and will always be the man. He's played a major part in making this franchise what it is. He's still doing a good job even though the league has changed drastically since his first time around.

Re: Gibbs
 

Ok. He didn't find Albright. But how about we replace him with Cooley who I somehow left off the list.

Some of you guys still miss the point I don't understand how you cannot see the fact that we have vastly improved in personnel since he got back and we have a solid foundation. Not to mention a Potential FRANCHISE QB who has only started 16 games.

This is very similar to Parcells in Dallas. We want to run Gibbs out of town then watch his players be great, and give all the creidt to another coach.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=BringBackJoeT;378118]Indeed, this is a subject that we're beating to death. But to respond to the challenge of "can anyone say when [Gibbs] steps down we aren't light years ahead of where we were," I can't imagine I'm the only one who could very, very easily say that, if he were to step down today, we are NOT "light years" ahead of where we were. Again, we're going over and over this topic. But as that bastard Parcells proclaimed, you're as good as your record, and Gibbs overall record more than three and a half years into his second stint is below
.500, which makes him almost indistinguishable from the five coaches (Richie, Turner, Robiske, Marty, Spurrier) who preceded him (well, Marty actually had an even .500). As Boswell said in the Post last week, this team is mediocre. Period. If you're saying that Gibbs has laid a foundation for a powerhouse in the years to come, well, that's something I haven't heard too many NFL experts say. Sure, the so-called "experts" consistently show that they don't exactly have crystal balls, but I guess I'm just not as confident as you are that the current team is a youthful, soon-to-be dominator. Look, I'm not blaming anything on Coach Joe, I'm simply responding to your suggestion that he has radically turned the organization around. He hasn't.[/QUOTE]

I couldnt agree more. Any notion that this team is light years ahead of where it was is just not reality. I think until the organization fundamentally changes the way it does business (build the foundation through the draft and fill a spot or 2 with FAs) then it will continue to have mediocre results.

Re: Gibbs
 

beating a dead horse here :

1) Portis for Bailey & Bell - springs can not be included in that, he signed as a FA.

2) the organization is in no better shape now than it was 4 years ago. To say that it is, well that is too much cool aid my friends. Who cares who we have on the Roster, we dont win. Isn't winning the defining term of what a regime does? Not having so called young studs. Who knows, maybe 3 or 4 years from now those young studs (if we are able to afford them!) may be probowl players. But as of today, we are no better than what we have been the past 10 years, not alone the past 4 years. We continually have to release this player, renegotiate with this player, sign a FA to a lesser contract to make up for this guy we had to cut, this is the same crap that has gone on for 10 years. If you guys think this current roster will be around for another 2 or 3 years, WRONG. Moss wont be here, Portis wont be here, Smoot, Marcus (he may be too old by then anyway) Randel El all those guys will be gone. I hope and pray we keep Taylor, Cooley, Campbell, Rogers, Landry , and Rocky. But, who knows.

Springs will be cut after this year, Marcus too (that is a feeling) Lloyd (no brainer) Daniels (another no brainer) Griffin will be gone.
i guess I am just saying we are no better now than we were before Gibbs 2.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic;378172]
Springs will be cut after this year, Marcus too (that is a feeling) Lloyd (no brainer) Daniels (another no brainer) Griffin will be gone.
i guess I am just saying we are no better now than we were before Gibbs 2.[/QUOTE]

I think Springs stays due to the Rogers injury, Griffin probably too stays. The rest will be gone.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=irish;378162]I couldnt agree more. Any notion that this team is light years ahead of where it was is just not reality. I think until the organization fundamentally changes the way it does business (build the foundation through the draft and fill a spot or 2 with FAs) then it will continue to have mediocre results.[/QUOTE]

I think you're greatly underestimating/ignoring what we have done with the draft.

Re: Gibbs
 

Aside from signing Archuleta, trading picks for Lloyd and Duckett, and allowing Pierce to leave for reasonable money, almost every other personnel move has had a positive impact.

My bigger problem has been with the coaching, more specifically the offensive coaching. When Gibbs returned, I just assumed that his offense would carry the team and that the defense would struggle. It has been the complete opposite. Look at virtually every top team in the NFL this year, and all of them take shots in the passing game. With the rules changes favoring WRs, Gibbs has been slow to adjust his philosophy to leverage that. I've felt that he'd be better off going back to his Air Coryell roots that he established as SD's offensive coordinator.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;378177]I think you're greatly underestimating/ignoring what we have done with the draft.[/QUOTE]

I think they have done a decent job with 1st round picks but after that they dont really have any pics so they cant build any foundation. Anyone that remotely follows college ball can make decent 1st round picks, it the later rounds that provide the foundation & depth all consistent winners in the nfl have.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=irish;378189]I think they have done a decent job with 1st round picks but after that they dont really have any pics so they cant build any foundation. Anyone that remotely follows college ball can make decent 1st round picks, it the later rounds that provide the foundation & depth all consistent winners in the nfl have.[/QUOTE]

You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan242;378154]Ok. He didn't find Albright. But how about we replace him with Cooley who I somehow left off the list.

Some of you guys still miss the point I don't understand how you cannot see the fact that we have vastly improved in personnel since he got back and we have a solid foundation. Not to mention a Potential FRANCHISE QB who has only started 16 games.

This is very similar to Parcells in Dallas. We want to run Gibbs out of town then watch his players be great, and give all the creidt to another coach.[/QUOTE]

Chris Cooley was a 2 for 1 deal. Sure he's great, but when you have to spend two draft picks to get him, it's just not the most efficient way to use the draft.

How can you say we have "vastly improved in personnel" when we have a losing record over three and a half seasons?

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;378195]You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying the Skins dont have any but out of all those rounds and picks you can name 5, 3 of which are barely recognizable as Skins.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan242;378084]We waited to play J. Campbell until he was ready while everyone was screaming for him. We didn't throw him in the fire look at how that worked out for San Fran and others.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. It did work for Dallas and Troy Aikman, Indy and Peyton Manning...

I think you'll find that for the quarterbacks who were thrown into the fire "before they were ready" and didn't perform, those same QBs weren't cut out for the NFL to begin with, and how they were worked into their respective starting positions wouldn't have mattered anyway.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;378195]You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?[/QUOTE]

And these players represent the reasons why we shouldn't piss away 3rd and 4th round picks for guys like TJ Duckett and Brandon Lloyd.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=irish;378189]I think they have done a decent job with 1st round picks but after that they dont really have any pics so they cant build any foundation. Anyone that remotely follows college ball can make decent 1st round picks, it the later rounds that provide the foundation & depth all consistent winners in the nfl have.[/quote]Assuming that we don't know if a player is a bust until his third season, let's look at 2005 first round picks who appear to be busts in year 3:

Alex Smith (#1)
Cedric Benson (#4)
Pacman Jones (#6)
Troy Williamson (#7)
Mike Williams (#10)
Erasmus James (#18)
Matt Jones (#21)

I may be missing some, but those are 1st round busts from just one draft. Projecting college players to the NFL is not as easy as you make it out to be.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=SouperMeister;378208]Assuming that we don't know if a player is a bust until his third season, let's look at 2005 first round picks who appear to be busts in year 3:

Alex Smith (#1)
Cedric Benson (#4)
Pacman Jones (#6)
Troy Williamson (#7)
Mike Williams (#10)
Erasmus James (#18)
Matt Jones (#21)

I may be missing some, but those are 1st round busts from just one draft. Projecting college players to the NFL is not as easy as you make it out to be.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was easy. You have 7 busts out of 32, thats a pretty low % and most of those were drafted by bad teams. Also Pacman was fine on the field but a disaster off it so I'm not sure you can call him bust.

There are no sure things in the draft but the 1st round is as close as you can get.

Re: Gibbs
 

I hate to be a copy and paster, but Steve Czaban does a much better job at venting his frustrations of Gibbs' personnel decision making than I ever could. Here's what he said on Nov. 9.

[B]skinsfan242, this one is for you:[/B]

[url=http://www.czabe.com]Czabe.com[/url]

The inevitable Brandon Lloyd career death spiral has begun in earnest. It’s just a matter of time now.

See, the Skins can’t afford to cut loose the part-time wideout/rapper right now. His cap penalty before June 1 would put the Redskins in a massive bind. Not that they aren’t already looking at a big problem for next year anyway. The team is some $10 over the cap based on just 43 players under contract.

Anyhow, whenever Lloyd does hang up the ol’ Redskins #85 (the same number as Darnerian McCants, by the way. Must be haunted…) it will cap a trifecta of horrible personnel moves that may never, ever, ever be topped in Redskin history.

First the Skins get penny foolish and let capable safety Ryan Clark go, and then spend quadruple what he was asking for to get Adam Archuleta. Then the Skins surrendered two picks for Lloyd, and ripped up his contract. Then the Skins panicked and sent two more picks packing for T.J. Duckett. In total, these three players will have given the Redskins ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on the field, at a cost so exorbitant, it hurts your head just thinking about it.

The Redskins under Snyder (and Gibbs has adopted this mantra, making it all the more infuriating) like to brag about being “aggressive” in their player acquisition process.

Aggressive, as in stupid, that is.

The Redskins under Snyder/Gibbs have nearly written a Player Personnel Disasters 101 handbook in just a few years.

Doing things like overpaying for marginal players (Archuleta), throwing draft picks away on a whim (T.J. Duckett) and ripping up contracts of players without them ever proving anything first in your uniform (Lloyd). The mere thought of a 3rd and a 4th rounder for Duckett, another 3rd and 4th for Lloyd, plus the millions paid to all of them is enough to make you sick. How come Danny and Gibby are too stupid to realize that they acquired three players who gave them absolutely NOTHING, at the cost of nearly $20 million in guaranteed money and 4 players who might be on their way to becoming stars.

The draft picks tossed aside so casually, could be an additional Cooley, Dockery, Montgomery and McIntosh without even breaking a sweat! If you ever thought that Snyder somehow was NOT the actual GM of this team, look closely at this unholy trio. They have all the makings of a typical Snyder move. It’s flash and bravado, and not a lick of common football sense. For Archuleta, he was desperate to rejoin Lovie Smith with the Bears. Arch had a deal basically in place. But Snyder just hates it when he doesn’t get his man. So he offered a contract so stupid, Arch just had to take it. Now he’s in Chicago anyway (and not very good) with Snyder’s cash, and we’re still paying off the cap hit.

For Duckett, the rumor was that the Skins just wanted him out of Philly’s hands. This would be typical Snyder too. Like the Trotter signing, he just loves to THINK that he’s somehow messing up other teams’ plans. And for Lloyd, it’s a pure love affair with the flashy. Typical Snyder guy. You want a stat that blankets this entire stupid Gibbs’ return? Here it is... The Skins haven’t had their own 2nd, 3rd or 4th round picks in the FOUR drafts that Gibbs has been here! (The selections of Cooley and McIntosh in those spots required re-acquisition of a pick from another team – for a future pick or more! Duh….) No NFL team can have any sustained success this way. It’s nuts!

And don’t even get me started on how stupidly some of the others were thrown out the window. A 3rd rounder for Brunnell. Gag. A 2nd rounder to help Denver fleece us even more on the Champ for Portis deal. Ugh. Hell, we even chucked a 7th rounder for James Thrash. Genius! Brilliant!

This is why I have come to hate Joe Gibbs 2.0 with a venom that has even shocked me at times. It wouldn’t have been as bad, if Joe 2.0 had made some big, but honest, mistakes in personnel. But these moves have been so colossally stupid from the word “go” that it can put you into a rage. And if you want to check the tapes, I objected to Lloyd and Archuleta from the minute they were announced, and was blasé at best about “Arch Deluxe.” So it’s not like I – or anybody else – is trying to play Monday morning quarterback on these moves.

I honestly thought Gibbs was going to tame Snyder, and bring about a whole new era of competent team building in place. Instead, the opposite has happened. Snyder has corrupted and co-opted Gibbs. It sickens me as a fan. Just plain sickens.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=irish;378201]I'm not saying the Skins dont have any but out of all those rounds and picks you can name 5, 3 of which are barely recognizable as Skins.[/QUOTE]

It's an area that needs improvement for sure. I guess just from the tone of your posts it seems like you're saying they have none which of course is untrue

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;378215]It's an area that needs improvement for sure. I guess just from the tone of your posts it seems like you're saying they have none which of course is untrue[/QUOTE]

It sure does. I dont think I said none and I didnt mean to imply that if I did. They just dont have very many and from what I have seen consistently successful teams do.

Re: Gibbs
 

Czaban would fit in well here. He just really rubs me the wrong way.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;378222]Czaban would fit in well here. He just really rubs me the wrong way.[/QUOTE]

Czaban is an ass. I think I actually hate the man.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=irish;378212]I never said it was easy. You have 7 busts out of 32, thats a pretty low % and most of those were drafted by bad teams. Also Pacman was fine on the field but a disaster off it so I'm not sure you can call him bust.

There are no sure things in the draft but the 1st round is as close as you can get.[/quote]That percentage may be higher - there were names I don't recognize from that first round who may be well on their way to becoming busts as well. Ask Tennessee how they feel about Pacman. You think they wish they had drafted Antrel Rolle or Carlos Rogers instead???

Re: Gibbs
 

Even if it's 7 busts out of 32, that's almost 22%. I wouldn't say that's low by any means. And it definitely points to there being more to drafting than just watching some college ball on a Saturday afternoon.

Re: Gibbs
 

Skinsfan242:

Did you accidentally leave off Gibbs acquisition of Mark Brunell - at the cost of a draft pick and a large salary - from your compendium of his errors? Or do you think that was one of his good personnel moves?

Will the Skins be better off when Gibbs leaves than they were when he arrives? Not if they keep the rest of this bloated and over-rated coaching staff around when he's gone...

Re: Gibbs
 

Before coach returned the only player we got excited over, argueably, was Arrington. We now have young and talented players with Cooley, Campbell, Taylor, Rocky, Landry, Portis...the list goes on. To say that Coach Gibbs has not improved the team would be incorrect. We have a core of good players instead of just one or two.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=Skinsfan1967;378284]Before coach returned the only player we got excited over, argueably, was Arrington. We now have young and talented players with Cooley, Campbell, Taylor, Rocky, Landry, Portis...the list goes on. To say that Coach Gibbs has not improved the team would be incorrect. We have a core of good players instead of just one or two.[/quote]


lets look at it this way. the patriots, (in the playoffs EVERYYEAR, superbowls after superbowls) have aproximately 49 of the 53 players on that roster from the DRAFT. We beat this in the ground every year. Everyone wants to look at the players we have, and yes they are good young talent no question. But, if they have the picks there are suppose to have we may not be dealing with cap issues every year, depth problems every year, play 10Million out to people that dont see the field, or get traded for late round picks. two picks for Rocky, Two picks for Cooley, Picks for Portis, Thrash?? Duckett two picks, are you serious. Teams that build through the draft are better consistant teams. (the majority of them)

I think we will all be beating this around for years to come. the front office has a philosophy and its not going to change.

Re: Gibbs
 

think we'll only beat it around because people are afraid to look forward without constantly condeming past mistakes. We've made good moves and bad moves. Just like almost every other team in the NFL. In any sport for that matter.

The future will hold more of the same, even with a different philosophy; which I think you will see us exhibit with more consistency.

Re: Gibbs
 

Who is Czaban? Another guy with an opinion, that's it. In my opinion we are better off then before.
All you guys who sit here and bad mouth everything are the first guys to praise everything when we win. You are also probably the same guys who leave when we are down by 8 with the ball at the stadium.

I don't think any one of you actually remembers what the team was like when Spurrier was here. It is not easy to turn that mess into something positive.
Sometimes you pay more, but you wouldn't trade an extra pick for Cooley? Please!
You don't think getting Springs wasn't part of the Plan of dumping Bailey (Who WASN'T going to sign)?
You think trading up to get Campbell wasn't worth the extra picks? When you see a potential franchise QB you do what it takes to get him.

Now nobody think trading extra picks is the best way to go but to say we are not better off now then before is insane.

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan242;378306]Now nobody think trading extra picks is the best way to go but to say we are not better off now then before is insane.[/QUOTE]

Well see, you have your opinion and others have theirs. I agree with you personally that we are better off but I don't think to disagree with that is "insane"

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;378195]You're making this argument in another thread and it kind of baffles me quite honestly

And also, what rounds do you think McIntosh, Cooley, Blades, Golston, Montgomery were all drafted in?[/QUOTE]

Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break, Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.

Re: Gibbs
 

[quote=offiss;378333]Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break, Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.[/quote]Remember when the Pats drafted Laurence Maroney with Joseph Addai still on the board?

I guess Pioli is a terrible GM, huh?

Re: Gibbs
 

[QUOTE=offiss;378333]Montgomery, Golston, and Blades? I think because a player that Gibbs drafts actually sees the playing field he's immediately headed for canton, give me a break, Cooley we had to give away picks because of Gibbs trade for Portis, and same thing with Rocky because of campbell, Cooley is tremendous, take a look at the kid Oakland took in the second rd same as Rocky, Thomas Howard, so far he's been better than Rocky. Even the players that pan out we over pay for, and out of all those players you named Cooley is the only bonified player, rocky hasn't done nearly enough for any one to hang their hats on him.

Bottom line if Gibbs has done a good job with the draft then there is no reason for our 5-11 season last year, nore should we be sitting at 5-4 this season, especially with so many older players still having to carry the load, as in Daniels, and Griffen.[/QUOTE]

We're talking about a foundation for the future. Beyond the 1st rounders (Landry, Campbell, Taylor, Rogers) we have, in my opinion, selected players in later rounds that are a foundation for future. Such as the ones mentioned above.

There's vast room for improvement, no question. But it's not as dismal as some think.

Re: Gibbs
 

Even as I've been a harsh critic of Gibbs the personnel man, I give him credit for picks like Golston and Montgomery, - those are legitimate gems unearthed in what has traditionally been No Man's Land in Washington: the 5th, 6th, and 7th round of the NFL draft.

What bothers me more, is the expansive foundation Gibbs could have laid without giving away 3rd and 4th round draft picks as though they were ketchup packs at Burger King. In addition to the fact that those are picks we gave away for a guy who's not even here! Duckett lasted one season and was inactive for weeks! And Brandon Lloyd is right behind him.

The hideous repercussions of those moves far outweigh any positive personnel move he's made. If he were any other man than Joe Gibbs, on any other team that made that kind of outrageous mistake, he'd have been fired on the spot.

Has it crossed anybody's mind that maybe with all of those picks, the replacements for Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, Sean Taylor or Santana Moss might have been able to contribute this season when we're getting hammered by injuries?