Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Okay, assuming the reports are true, and Sean Taylor DOESN'T want a new contract, but shows up for minicamp; do you think he should be the starter? That is assuming he's the best FS we have on the team -- which I'm sure he will be.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

I'd like to know his reasons first. He could have at least picked up the phone and called somebody.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

It's kind of like the Chapelle situation. People are going to start speculating until someone hears from him.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]It's kind of like the Chapelle situation. People are going to start speculating until someone hears from him.[/QUOTE]

Chappelle and Sean Taylor in the same thread! classic.

Sean Taylor will start if he comes back, no doubt. Gregg Wiliams loves the guy and Gregg Wiliams has St. Joe's ear. But I swear, he is probably testing the patience of a few important people. . .

Do I like him as much? HELL NO!

Do I think that Taylor is an F-up? hell Yes!

but he is our F-up, so until he completly screws us like coles, I'm on his side.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

I say sit him. I'm sick of catering to pouting 22 year-olds who think they're somehow above the team and can make up and live by their own rules. Not for the whole season, but send a message that he's not indispensible.

Last year we had the #3 D in the entire NFL, and we did that without him being a starter the first few games, without Arrington for most of the season, without Daniels for most of the season, without Barrow (who was the projected starter going into the year), without Bowen for a host of games, and without other defensive players for games here and there througout the season. I have no reason to believe this year will be any different. It's GW's system that makes our defense great, not Sean Taylor.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

I definitely think he gets benched. I just wish SOMEONE would comment. Just the way Portis talks about things, it really does seem that Taylor got burnt out from football.

gortiz, the similarities between him and Chapelle get weirder every minute! ;)

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Am I the only one who thinks our defense was better BECAUSE Bowen was out? He had a great game vs TB, but that guy is horrible in passing situations.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

It's funny, ST has his own website [url]www.seantaylor36.com[/url], but it's been down for the past 2 weeks. Quite frankly, the site is pretty awful, but I did take a gander into the forum section, and Sean was getting slammed left and right....on his own fan website. Oh, and when I say "slammed", I'm not implying that anyone has said anything negative about how he plays...I mean, how could ya. But as far as his holdout is concerned, he was getting very little support. I think he's got a lot of growing up to do, but I also think that he'll be our starter (and should be).

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Does everyone here realize that this is the NFL and not high school football? If you want to win in the NFL you have to play your best players. If Taylor is the best FS we have then play him. Yeah he sat out of VOULENTARY workouts and VOULENTARY practices. Does it suck that he did this? YES!! But still you have to play your best players every Sunday weither you want to or not.

Yeah we did have the #3 D with out Arrington, Daniels, Bowen and others, but do you think that they would have been benched if they were able to play? Then just think how much better our D could have been if they all were healthy!!

I am not happy with Taylors choice not to be at redskins park, but he is the best FS we have so play him. Besides its not like we are rewarding him for sitting out, if he comes to play and he is out of shape and not at the level he was last year then yes bench him.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Taylor will start. No doubt.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Taylor would have to hold out of training camp for me to sit him. How can you lose a job over activities labled "voluntary"? He should definitely be there though...I have not changed my mind on that.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

I am just glad he not gonna hold out like T.O. he has potential to be a monster. All I am thinking is beat Dallas. That should be our focus everyone focussssssssssssssss!

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]Yeah we did have the #3 D with out Arrington, Daniels, Bowen and others, but do you think that they would have been benched if they were able to play? Then just think how much better our D could have been if they all were healthy!![/QUOTE]

Apples and Oranges. None of the injured players pulled the same sh!t Taylor is pulling. Of course they wouldn't be benched.....they did nothing to deserve it.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think it's completely out of question to bench players that piss all over you. It wouldn't be the first time a starter was put on the bench to send a message. It's been done in all professional sports. Personally, I like what Gruden did to Keyshawn, and I hope more coaches grow the balls to do that to other players like him in the future.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

He's got issues, but i still say play him. he will be one of the top 3 safeties in the game in 2 years.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Am I the only one who thinks our defense was better BECAUSE Bowen was out? He had a great game vs TB, but that guy is horrible in passing situations.[/QUOTE]

You are not alone, Man. :D
Bowen is a huge liability in the passing game. But he is good at blitzing the QB.
If his pass defense skills do not improve he will eventually be replaced. I do not like it that we have to sub our safeties depending on situations. Teams will exploit it and throw over to bowen when he is in.

I know it is summer and not much Skins news to talk about....but in this over saturated media, overly judgemental (church lady) time we live in...some of you guys are ready to throw ST under the bus for these minor issues? Yes this isn't high school, but the NFL is not nor has it ever been a high moral place. Some of our past stars were much worse than ST. I worry about alienating all our good players because some hypocritical/overl judgmental repoters are burning players publicly.
Let ST show up on Sundays and play his heart out for us. Leave him alone. The guy will be a probowl player soon. What he does on his spare time is his bussiness, not ours. VOLUNTARY WORK OUT - change the name if they are not voluntary!

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]Apples and Oranges. None of the injured players pulled the same sh!t Taylor is pulling. Of course they wouldn't be benched.....they did nothing to deserve it.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think it's completely out of question to bench players that piss all over you. It wouldn't be the first time a starter was put on the bench to send a message. It's been done in all professional sports. Personally, I like what Gruden did to Keyshawn, and I hope more coaches grow the balls to do that to other players like him in the future.[/QUOTE]


Apples and Oranges...you are comparing Me-Shawn Johnson, who yelled and physically threatened his head coach (on National TV) (on the sideline during a game) to Sean Taylor, who missed a few VOLUNTARY work outs, a BS rookie meeting, and wants a new contract? Not even close.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

If he shows for camp and his contract isn't an issue, why would he not be the starter? We can't really punish him for not showing to voluntary workouts, as much as it may irk the staff.

This whole thing probably irritates the fans more than the team and coaches.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Am I the only one who thinks our defense was better BECAUSE Bowen was out? He had a great game vs TB, but that guy is horrible in passing situations.[/QUOTE]

If Taylor is the best player at his position, he should start.

Now I disagree about Bowen. I think he brought a good demention to our defense; with his blitzes and play against the run. I think he should be taken out on passing situations, because both Andre Lott and Ryan Clark are faster than he is. Its not to say he'll never face the situation, but I dont think him being injured helped our team.

When you look at the whole picture, we have 4 very capable safties; and two are going to play. No matter which two are playing, I dont really see that as a big problem area on the team. I think Lott, Clark, Bowen and obviously Taylor are good enough to be put in and not miss a beat.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

HE'LL START if he shows up at 12:45 right before we open with Chicago......now that may be pushing it, but he has done nothing yet to relinquish his starting role besides being a "ME" guy......and making me hate him for it......HE'LL START FOR SURE.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

If Taylor is burnt out on football, then I say it's actually GOOD that he's taking a break from it. If you're burnt out now, you better take a break now, because I absolutely don't want him burnt out DURING the season.

Any time you want to miss something that's voluntary, that's entirely up to you. That's a choice you make yourself, but you have to bear in mind that if you miss, there are going to be other guys on the team who are there preparing. That could mean that they get better, and make a bigger impression on the coaches. If one of those players shows that they deserve the spot more than Taylor, then Taylor should get benched. But he shouldn't get benched just because he misses voluntary workouts.

Now, do I think somebody on the team can beat out Sean Taylor? Hell no. But that's the way you have to approach it. If Sean Taylor can earn his starting spot just by showing up to mandatory practices and skipping the voluntary ones, then he deserves the starting job.

When you do only what is required of you, that's synonymous with doing the bare minimum. Guys who do the bare minimum aren't the types I want to make a part of my core group of Redskins, and I'll bet Gibbs feels that way too, so maybe Taylor should consider the effects this move will have on his contract negotiations and where he stands with Gibbs. I'd be willing to hand over a bit more cash for someone who goes the extra mile. Benching him isn't the answer, you play the best player, period. But how much you're willing to pay him come contract time, that's where it gets interesting.

Work and deserve it, earn it to own it.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

If he goes out and performs as the best player on the defense for the next 4 years, while missing voluntary practices, then I would still want to pay top dollar to resign him. But I wouldn't give him more than the 2nd best player on the defense (for the sake of argument, Lavar Arrington), as long as that defensive player is going the extra mile and working even when he's not required. If that means Sean Taylor leaves for a better deal elsewhere, so be it.

On our team, extra work should be rewarded. That fosters the right kind of team attitude and encourages leadership.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

All of this talk is showing that money and talent aren't the only things important in sports today. Psychology has more to do with it then we would think.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Gibbs wasn't to clear on what he meant regarding Taylor's situation. What Gibbs was trying to say is that the front office acknowledges the fact that Taylor's current contract is a little on the light side in comparison to the other top draft picks taken before and after him. They will review the terms of the contract as the offseason allows. In the time being, Taylor is still under contract and therefore expected to be with the team. :oink:

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins]Apples and Oranges...you are comparing Me-Shawn Johnson, who yelled and physically threatened his head coach (on National TV) (on the sideline during a game) to Sean Taylor, who missed a few VOLUNTARY work outs, a BS rookie meeting, and wants a new contract? Not even close.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm not comparing them at all. I'm simply using the Keyshawn situation as an example of a coach being tough on a player that needs an attitude check. I never said that what ST has done (or failed to do) is the same or even as bad. I'm simply saying that I admire coaches who get tough with players and show them that they need the team more than the team needs them. ST has shown nothing but disdain and a complete lack of respect for the coaching staff. He hasn't even so much as picked up the phone to call his coach back. I'm sorry, but that's immature, disrespectful, and flat-out assinine. Is he as bad as Keyshawn? No. But I, for one, don't think that Gruden's actions should be limited to players who disrespect their coaches publicly. How many of us on this board could act in such a way to our bosses and still have a job tomorrow? Seriously, how many? And these guys are supposed to be professionals? I'm sorry, but some standard of conduct has to accompany the millions of dollars poor underpaid Sean Taylor is getting.

And I don't buy this "voluntary" argument. That's BS. EVERY OTHER teammate who can be there is there right now. If it's so "voluntary", then why doesn't the whole rest of the team have a problem showing up? Come on, he's looking like a punk right now, plain and simple. He's got absolutely NO REASON to not be there with the team. NONE.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

If you keep playing hard ball with players and letting them go you create roster turnover which is not good. Just face it having Taylor on the field gives our defense an advantage most teams dont have. I would like to see good faith from the front office and atleast start talking with him on a deal and Ramsey too. Core Redskin Smoot left for a better deal; another team felt he was more valuable We used a number 9 pick to replace him that shows his value. We could have kept him and used number 9 for something else and we would have been made better by that number 9 pick instead of running in place and replacing what we already had. just face it core Redskin talk is nonsense those players work for the NFL as a whole, not any one team and thats reality nowadays and thats the problem.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

It is a very bad mistake to give any player the false impression that any form of behavior is acceptable as long as he turns in a good performance on the field. I am not one who condones pre-madonas, and feel that performance on and off the field are of equal value.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]It is a very bad mistake to give any player the false impression that any form of behavior is acceptable as long as he turns in a good performance on the field. I am not one who condones pre-madonas, and feel that performance on and off the field are of equal value.[/QUOTE]

Thank God. I was starting to feel all alone here.:biggthump

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

You're not alone. I also believe that character is more important than performance. If football were an individual sport, it wouldn't be that big of an issue, but you cannot discount how important a good team dynamic is to winning football games. I'd prefer to have someone that wasn't quite as productive individually, but that greatly enhanced the overall team dynamic because of their character. Taylor is showing disrespect to his coach and to his teamates. That sort of selfishness is anathema to a good team dynamic, and should not be tolerated lightly. I'd reserve judgement on benching him until I heard his side of the story and saw his interaction with teamates once he shows up, but I see no reason to believe that what gives every appearance of immaturity and selfishness is going to change overnight. I really hope that Sean turns things around, but if I were Gibbs, I wouldn't be going out of my way to resign Taylor or improve his current contract based on what I've seen so far.

--Phin

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]It is a very bad mistake to give any player the false impression that any form of behavior is acceptable as long as he turns in a good performance on the field. I am not one who condones pre-madonas, and feel that performance on and off the field are of equal value.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this, to a point. The whole point of this thread was to determine whether you would BENCH Sean Taylor for missing these VOLUNTARY workouts.

I agree that you can't send the message that all behavior is acceptable as long as you perform well in games. But the question at hand is: exactly how bad has Sean Taylor's behavior been so far?

I say not that bad at all. He has not missed anything mandatory. He has not taken any shots at his QB or coaches, a la TO. All reports suggest he is working his ass off on his own. As long as he comes to mini-camp and training camp in shape, and he works hard there to improve himself, then benching him would be a MAJOR overreaction. It would just be plain stupid.

Now, in contract negotiations, that's where you send the message in my opinion. That's where you sit down and say, "hey, we here at the Washington Redskins reward people who work hard on a voluntary basis. We like players who are with us for all practices, voluntary or not." And you offer a contract accordingly. If Sean Taylor wants to be a part of voluntary sessions, then he'll earn the top dollars in his next contract. If not, then maybe he has a million or two shaved off of what he would have otherwise been offered. And if he walks, fine, he wouldn't have been a good fit for us so long as voluntary practices are that important to team chemistry in Gibbs' eyes.

But you don't bench him (unless he starts skipping mandatory practices). That's just plain moronic. Winning games is still the bottom line.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[quote]
But you don't bench him (unless he starts skipping mandatory practices). That's just plain moronic. Winning games is still the bottom line.[/quote]
Amen - this thread was meant to leave the salary out of it completely.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Look, I'm willing to take this at face value, for the time being. We're all wondering how a kid could "burn out" (Portis's term) like this. It's not so hard to understand. He's a Florida guy all his life, plays in Miami in college where there's a strong support system of friends, family and teammates, and then he's thrown into the draft thing, has trouble getting an agent (probably receiving all kinds of contradictory advice from people who don't know sh**; signs a weak deal becuase he doesn't want to miss camp; hears from everyone how he blew it, switches agents, etc.

Then he skips the NFL thing and gets reamed; Gets a whack DWI thing where he's not even drunk, just speeding; he's just moved to a new town--it's cold, no friends, no family, a young guy on his own for the first time, and then it's a tough 6-10 season with the skins where he gets toasted by Vinny against the cowboys.

WInters are cold and nasty in DC if you're from Fla. So he goes home to lick his wounds. Man, it feels good to get away from all that. He needs to recharge the batteries and get his sh** together. He gets a new agent who most likely does say, hey you've got no real leverage, so the only thing you can do is make them miss you a bit by skipping the offseason stuff. And you can get it together for the moment down in FLA. So that's what he does.

(I think this is exactly the wrong thing to do, BTW--he should have toughed it out, bonded with his teammates, and gotten used to DC--made some friends, hang out with Lavar and his 57 plasma screens, etc.)

I don't think it's unbelievable to think that this is what happened, and he'll be back with something to prove in June. If that's that case, of course he should start. He's got to mend some fences, but Coach Williams has played it VERY cool, and that's the guy who matters, really. Unless he skips non-voluntary stuff, he'll be our starting pro-bowl bound kick ass free safety.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]All reports suggest he is working his ass off on his own. As long as he comes to mini-camp and training camp in shape, and he works hard there to improve himself, then benching him would be a MAJOR overreaction. It would just be plain stupid.
[/QUOTE]

I would actually love to see these reports. The only thing I've heard is that he's gone to Miami ONE DAY for a half court basketball game. I haven't heard from one credible source that's actually witnessed him "working his ass off".

And please don't cite Portis......of course he's going to say that about his boy.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Good post JWsleep, sometimes we forget that these guys are only 21/22 and it isn't always easy to adjust.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=JWsleep]Look, I'm willing to take this at face value, for the time being. We're all wondering how a kid could "burn out" (Portis's term) like this. It's not so hard to understand. He's a Florida guy all his life, plays in Miami in college where there's a strong support system of friends, family and teammates, and then he's thrown into the draft thing, has trouble getting an agent (probably receiving all kinds of contradictory advice from people who don't know sh**; signs a weak deal becuase he doesn't want to miss camp; hears from everyone how he blew it, switches agents, etc.
[/QUOTE]

Probably could have spent some of that $7.2 million signing bonus on some plane tickets for those friend and familiy then, huh? Sorry, but being paid like an NFL player would cure my homesickness...........Oh, and having 3-4 months off to hang at Miami would probably be enough too (which he's already had). I have a tough time feeling sorry for guys who get paid millions of dollars to work out, learn football, and play a game.........but then again, that's just me.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Good post JWsleep, sometimes we forget that these guys are only 21/22 and it isn't always easy to adjust.[/QUOTE]

Yah, when I was away from home at college without the money to fly my friends and family out to see me when I was 18-22, I nearly didn't make dean's list one semester. Come on........time to cut the cord and grow up.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

PSUskinsFan21--you heartless monster! j/k ;)

No, I hear you. I'm not saying this excuses his behavior (especially the phone calls--c'mon). It's just that I can get the picture this way. And like I said, I think the solution would have been to tough it out (aka, be a man) and settle in with your new teammates in your new home. Cooley did it, and the culture shock was probably way greater for a small town westerner like him. But he did it, and it looks to me like he digs it, going to events, wearing a cat-in-the-hat hat, reading to kids, etc. Taylor could learn from that, if he'd only get up here.

But my point was only that it's not "incomprehensible"--and that if he shows for the manditory stuff, he should still start, IMHO.

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

PSU I'm kicking it with you man. We can make all the inexcusable excuses we want to make for a man who has made nothing but negative headlines since he came on the scene. How good a player he is, is a moot point when you can't be counted on to be part of a team, and that's what this is about "TEAM".

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

LOL........you might not be to far off with the heartless monster comment JWsleep. There are probably some posters who would agree with you. LOL

I see where you are coming from now though. And I think I'm ok with him starting if he comes to the mandatories and shows a good attitude when he gets here. I just get frustrated when it seems like we are the only team with a guy like this. I know there are other holdouts, but if we are all assuming for now that it's not about his contract, then who else in the entire NFL is not showing up to OTAs because they need more time at home? I just wasn't prepared to get this immature of a player when we drafted him last year (not that I'd be any happier with Winslow either).

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]PSU I'm kicking it with you man. We can make all the inexcusable excuses we want to make for a man who has made nothing but negative headlines since he came on the scene. How good a player he is, is a moot point when you can't be counted on to be part of a team, and that's what this is about "TEAM".[/QUOTE]

:food-smil

Re: Sean Taylor - What if...
 

Expecting a 22yo boy to act like a 40yo man is crazy....That being said...He should act like a decently intelligent college boy.....partying all night and having all the fun he can....Oh! Thats right! He is not at the U anymore, he is a Redskin!....Maybe he forgot too....