For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...

[Hail to the Redskins]

I just want to point out what some may have briefly touched on at some point, but I think it is extremely necessary to point out three NFL teams (one in particular) and three QBs that spin the Zorn/Campbell excuses around...

1) Atlanta Falcons - Rookie Head Coach, ROOKIE QB - 4-12 last year, 9-5 this year
* First time DEFENSIVE background head coach, ROOKIE QB on a team that was 4-12 last year.
* 5-2 over last 7 games... improving
* Points For - 336 Points Against - 281
* Learning curve really has that drastic effect on an offense/QB??

2) Baltimore Ravens - Rookie HC, Rookie QB - 5-11 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time SPECIAL TEAMS background HC, ROOKIE QB.
* 7-2 over last 9 games... improving
* PF - 325 PA - 213
* You can talk about their defense, but that offense with rookie Flacco, much weaker RB crew and basically same talent at receiver/tight end as Skins still = 325 points to our 231.

3) Miami Dolphins - Rookie HC, QB Signed JUST before season - 1-15 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time HC, QB in brand new system, weak receiving depth on a team that was 1-15 LAST YEAR!!
* 7-1 over last 8! (talk about improvement!)
* PF - 283 PA - 269

4) Washington Redskins - Rookie HC, returning QB in new PASSING system (same running) - 9-7 last year, 7-7 this year
* 1-5 over last 6 games... improving??
* 2-2 vs Rams, Lions, Seahawks, Bengals with a point diff. of +2!!!!
* PF - 231 PA - 266

5) Aaron Rogers, Matt Cassel, Jay Cutler - All QB's same age/experience as Campbell (or less) outplaying (by far) Campbell.

Basically, this information tells you that you'd be crazy to say that the blame for this season is not Zorn or Campbell (or both). We have a better defense than Falcons & Dolphins (with more experience), much better offensive weapons than the Ravens, and are the only team with the same running system as last year with a stud RB. The excuses about Campbell being "young" and needing to "learn" is a huge load of BS... and Zorn's sole responsibility this year has been Campbell and the passing offense which happens to be the absolute worst facet of the team... anyone??

[RMSkins]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

I just want to point out what some may have briefly touched on at some point, but I think it is extremely necessary to point out three NFL teams (one in particular) and three QBs that spin the Zorn/Campbell excuses around...

1) Atlanta Falcons - Rookie Head Coach, ROOKIE QB - 4-12 last year, 9-5 this year
* First time DEFENSIVE background head coach, ROOKIE QB on a team that was 4-12 last year.
* 5-2 over last 7 games... improving
* Points For - 336 Points Against - 281
* Learning curve really has that drastic effect on an offense/QB??

2) Baltimore Ravens - Rookie HC, Rookie QB - 5-11 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time SPECIAL TEAMS background HC, ROOKIE QB.
* 7-2 over last 9 games... improving
* PF - 325 PA - 213
* You can talk about their defense, but that offense with rookie Flacco, much weaker RB crew and basically same talent at receiver/tight end as Skins still = 325 points to our 231.

3) Miami Dolphins - Rookie HC, QB Signed JUST before season - 1-15 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time HC, QB in brand new system, weak receiving depth on a team that was 1-15 LAST YEAR!!
* 7-1 over last 8! (talk about improvement!)
* PF - 283 PA - 269

4) Washington Redskins - Rookie HC, returning QB in new PASSING system (same running) - 9-7 last year, 7-7 this year
* 1-5 over last 6 games... improving??
* 2-2 vs Rams, Lions, Seahawks, Bengals with a point diff. of +2!!!!
* PF - 231 PA - 266

5) Aaron Rogers, Matt Cassel, Jay Cutler - All QB's same age/experience as Campbell (or less) outplaying (by far) Campbell.

Basically, this information tells you that you'd be crazy to say that the blame for this season is not Zorn or Campbell (or both). We have a better defense than Falcons & Dolphins (with more experience), much better offensive weapons than the Ravens, and are the only team with the same running system as last year with a stud RB. The excuses about Campbell being "young" and needing to "learn" is a huge load of BS... and Zorn's sole responsibility this year has been Campbell and the passing offense which happens to be the absolute worst facet of the team... anyone??

Good post! I think these are all extremely valid points.

[Hail to the Redskins]

Thanks...

I was also trying to bust the whole "tough part of the schedule" or "look at those team's schedules" excuses by providing the mind-numbing numbers of

2-2 versus Rams, Lions, Seahawks, and Bengals who are a combined 5-47-1 (HOLY CRAP that's more terrible than I realized!) outside of the games against the Skins with us winning the point differential by a whopping +2 ... obviously strength of schedule is not an excuse either...

Also... who at QB? Farve for a 3rd rounder sounds not so bad now especially considering we gave up a 2nd for JTaylor, but that wasn;t the answer either...

I am just saying that Campbell is NOT in the same class as the guys his same age and if that blame falls on Zorn, OK, but after what year will Campbell not be a "young QB" who "needs to continue learning" anymore?

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

I just want to point out what some may have briefly touched on at some point, but I think it is extremely necessary to point out three NFL teams (one in particular) and three QBs that spin the Zorn/Campbell excuses around...

1) Atlanta Falcons - Rookie Head Coach, ROOKIE QB - 4-12 last year, 9-5 this year
* First time DEFENSIVE background head coach, ROOKIE QB on a team that was 4-12 last year.
* 5-2 over last 7 games... improving
* Points For - 336 Points Against - 281
* Learning curve really has that drastic effect on an offense/QB??

2) Baltimore Ravens - Rookie HC, Rookie QB - 5-11 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time SPECIAL TEAMS background HC, ROOKIE QB.
* 7-2 over last 9 games... improving
* PF - 325 PA - 213
* You can talk about their defense, but that offense with rookie Flacco, much weaker RB crew and basically same talent at receiver/tight end as Skins still = 325 points to our 231.

3) Miami Dolphins - Rookie HC, QB Signed JUST before season - 1-15 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time HC, QB in brand new system, weak receiving depth on a team that was 1-15 LAST YEAR!!
* 7-1 over last 8! (talk about improvement!)
* PF - 283 PA - 269

4) Washington Redskins - Rookie HC, returning QB in new PASSING system (same running) - 9-7 last year, 7-7 this year
* 1-5 over last 6 games... improving??
* 2-2 vs Rams, Lions, Seahawks, Bengals with a point diff. of +2!!!!
* PF - 231 PA - 266

5) Aaron Rogers, Matt Cassel, Jay Cutler - All QB's same age/experience as Campbell (or less) outplaying (by far) Campbell.

Basically, this information tells you that you'd be crazy to say that the blame for this season is not Zorn or Campbell (or both). We have a better defense than Falcons & Dolphins (with more experience), much better offensive weapons than the Ravens, and are the only team with the same running system as last year with a stud RB. The excuses about Campbell being "young" and needing to "learn" is a huge load of BS... and Zorn's sole responsibility this year has been Campbell and the passing offense which happens to be the absolute worst facet of the team... anyone??

So who should we get for QB then? I think Cassell would be the only option right now, otherwise you go into rebuilding mode and throw Colt Brennan into the fire.

[The Goat]

I don't think you're going to find many who argue Zorn isn't way over his head at this point. As I said in another thread it won't be a surprise to me if he finds a new home of his own accord (w/o any meddling from Danny). Zorn is utterly overwhelmed and if he has any sense he knows he is outmatched against just about every HC/defensive coordinator he'll face at this level.

I believe we are just experiencing a little calm before the storm here... things will get much more interesting around Redskins park.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I don't think you're going to find many who argue Zorn isn't way over his head at this point. As I said in another thread it won't be a surprise to me if he finds a new home of his own accord (w/o any meddling from Danny). Zorn is utterly overwhelmed and if he has any sense he knows he is outmatched against just about every HC/defensive coordinator he'll face at this level.

I believe we are just experiencing a little calm before the storm here... things will get much more interesting around Redskins park.

I thought Zorn did a good job after we went down by 17 points to come back in the game. Zorn did not fumble the ball to get them rolling and he does not lead the D who looked so flate in the first 1/4 then again letting another team eat up the clock in th 4th. The only thing I questioned yesterday was using Sellers twice at the 1 yard line.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

I just want to point out what some may have briefly touched on at some point, but I think it is extremely necessary to point out three NFL teams (one in particular) and three QBs that spin the Zorn/Campbell excuses around...

1) Atlanta Falcons - Rookie Head Coach, ROOKIE QB - 4-12 last year, 9-5 this year
* First time DEFENSIVE background head coach, ROOKIE QB on a team that was 4-12 last year.
* 5-2 over last 7 games... improving
* Points For - 336 Points Against - 281
* Learning curve really has that drastic effect on an offense/QB??

2) Baltimore Ravens - Rookie HC, Rookie QB - 5-11 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time SPECIAL TEAMS background HC, ROOKIE QB.
* 7-2 over last 9 games... improving
* PF - 325 PA - 213
* You can talk about their defense, but that offense with rookie Flacco, much weaker RB crew and basically same talent at receiver/tight end as Skins still = 325 points to our 231.

3) Miami Dolphins - Rookie HC, QB Signed JUST before season - 1-15 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time HC, QB in brand new system, weak receiving depth on a team that was 1-15 LAST YEAR!!
* 7-1 over last 8! (talk about improvement!)
* PF - 283 PA - 269

4) Washington Redskins - Rookie HC, returning QB in new PASSING system (same running) - 9-7 last year, 7-7 this year
* 1-5 over last 6 games... improving??
* 2-2 vs Rams, Lions, Seahawks, Bengals with a point diff. of +2!!!!
* PF - 231 PA - 266

5) Aaron Rogers, Matt Cassel, Jay Cutler - All QB's same age/experience as Campbell (or less) outplaying (by far) Campbell.

Basically, this information tells you that you'd be crazy to say that the blame for this season is not Zorn or Campbell (or both). We have a better defense than Falcons & Dolphins (with more experience), much better offensive weapons than the Ravens, and are the only team with the same running system as last year with a stud RB. The excuses about Campbell being "young" and needing to "learn" is a huge load of BS... and Zorn's sole responsibility this year has been Campbell and the passing offense which happens to be the absolute worst facet of the team... anyone??

Hey bro, compare the offensive coordinators and QB coaches they have a bigger impact on the offense then the HC.
The only thing this information shows is that you don't know what you're talking about. And like comparing apples and oranges and potatoes.

[RMSkins]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Hey bro, compare the offensive coordinators and QB coaches they have a bigger impact on the offense then the HC.
The only thing this information shows is that you don't know what you're talking about. And like comparing apples and oranges and potatoes.

Did you forget that Zorn is, essentially, our offensive coordinator and QB coach?

[Hail to the Redskins]

ok... give me a minute on that one...

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

Talk about not knowing what you are talking about... way to respond intelligently witha facts and reasoning..

Do you even know who our QB COACH IS???? it's one Jim Zorn!!!!

Our O-Coordinator?? I'll tell you... he is Zorn's best offensive buddy, Sherman Smith, who he HAND-PICKED BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SAME OFFENSIVE PHILOSPHY!

Who calls the plays... wait.. you have to know this one right?? um, yup, that would be Zorn...

So you are basically implying that those teams have far superior OCs? Right? Well then you are just validating my point that Zorn needs no more excuses.. he just doesn't match up!!

But hey, good post... you obviously know what YOU are talking about

You made my point for me.

Zorn is doing too much. He's basically the HC/QB coach/OC. All those other coaches had time to put together a staff of their choosing a luxury Zorn wasn't afforded. Where was Zorn supposed to find a veteran WCO OC and QB coach last minute?

Zorn is wearing three hats and all things considered is doing a decent job on a Redskins team most people wrote off at the start of the season.


At the start of the season the offense was good right?

JC has improved right?

Maybe the offense would still be effective if Zorn had at least 1 other coach to help with the in-game adjustments and weekly gameplanning/play design?

How about you realize how much Zorn has accomplished and give him another year?

[Hail to the Redskins]

Best excuse for Zorn this far... too much going on (installing passing offense, QB development, play calling, etc. on TOP of HC duties...) ... but ... what does he do as HC? Blache completely runs the D, he has Sherman Smith and Meidt there with him to install offense and has a BUNCH of experienced players on offense who will tell you that that a new offense to them is not THAT huge a deal (aka Atlanta, Baltimore, & Miami outscoring us by far)

Maybe you are right, though, seriously... good post... that what I started this post for... logical, factual responses... not people going on the attack with no real logical, factual argument why

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

Best excuse for Zorn this far... too much going on (installing passing offense, QB development, play calling, etc. on TOP of HC duties...) ... but ... what does he do as HC? Blache completely runs the D, he has Sherman Smith and Meidt there with him to install offense and has a BUNCH of experienced players on offense who will tell you that that a new offense to them is not THAT huge a deal (aka Atlanta, Baltimore, & Miami outscoring us by far)

Maybe you are right, though, seriously... good post... that what I started this post for... logical, factual responses... not people going on the attack with no real logical, factual argument why

Dude, Sherman Smith came from the Titans where he ran the running game, he is new to the WCO and is a 1st time OC and likely took the job as OC to help out Zorn who was more or less in a lurch without a WCO OC.

Chris Meidt is a 1st year NFL assistant form Div III St.Olaf

you are comparing them to Cam Cameron and Mike Mularkey?
-C'mon bro

I didn't intend my posts as attack, i'm merely just reponding to your post.

Remember you are the one that said:

Basically, this information tells you that you'd be crazy to say that the blame for this season is not Zorn or Campbell (or both).

^^That my friend is an attack, saying that anyone that disagrees with your spurious logic is crazy.

[jamf]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Hey bro, compare the offensive coordinators and QB coaches they have a bigger impact on the offense then the HC.
The only thing this information shows is that you don't know what you're talking about. And like comparing apples and oranges and potatoes.

I agree!
In my opinion our Offensive line is the reason why we aren't successful

[sportscurmudgeon]

I want to take exception to one part of the logic here. This argumentation here lays the blame on the offense and says nothing about the defense

Before anyone jumps up and down and screams about the Skins being a "Top 10 defense" this year, understand that stats like that provide comfort only to losing teams. Any team that is 10-4 now and comfortably in the playoffs, is not looking at - nor does it care - where it ranks on total defense.

In THREE games this year (Cowboys, Ravens, Bengals) the Skins were in position to win/tie the game in the 4th quarter and the opposition took possession of the ball in the opposition's end of the field. What was needed was a "three-and-out"; the Skins could even have lived with giving up a first down and then forcing a punt. But NO...

In all three games, the opposition offense took the ball and ran off between 12 and 15 plays and ate up most of the clock - - and in the Bengals and Ravens game they scored at the end of that big drive. [Can't recall what happened at the end of the 4th quarter Cowboys' drive when Barber carried the ball about a zillion times in a row.]

The defense - players and coaches but mostly the players - had the ball run down their throats or they gave up a pass over the middle and didn't make a tackle on third and long to allow those drives to continue - - and continue - - and continue.

"Top 10 defenses" make things happen when it really matters; and what they make happen is not allowing a drive to consume 7 minutes of the fourth quarter and end in a score for the other guys.

Oh, by the way, the same Skins defense has been so good in first quarters recently that in the last three games the Skins have been outscored in the first quarter 38-0. That means the defense has given up six scores in the first quarter of the last three games. That STINKS!

In the second and third quarters, they don't allow a lot of yards; that's what keeps them in the "Top 10". Whoop - de - damned - dooo!

When it matters - - at the beginning of the game when it is 0-0 on the scorebard and in the fourth quarter when they need a STOP - - the defense has not done the job. You can fawn all over the players and vote for them to go to the Pro Bowl and sniff their jocks, but they haven't gotten the job done when it mattered this season. Deal with it!

Jason Campbell, Clinton Portis - - name your favorite Redskins' offensive player from the past - - can't do a whole lot when they spend half of the fourth quarter sitting on their asses on the sidelines waiting to get the ball. When it matters, this defensive unit has not delivered the goods.

Coaches to blame? Somewhat. Players to blame? More than coaching. The roster of the team itself to blame? Somewhat.

There needs to be a major overhaul to this roster. Of course, that was needed last year too and the overhaul that happened was that the Skins kept all of their draft picks on the roster even though only one of them can play right now. That's not a positive step. And that should give fans the biggest pause...

The roster needs an overhaul - - but do the people in charge of assembling the roster actually know what it needed here and where to look to find pieces to the puzzle to make it better? Recent evidence does not suggest that they do...

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

I want to take exception to one part of the logic here. This argumentation here lays the blame on the offense and says nothing about the defense

Before anyone jumps up and down and screams about the Skins being a "Top 10 defense" this year, understand that stats like that provide comfort only to losing teams. Any team that is 10-4 now and comfortably in the playoffs, is not looking at - nor does it care - where it ranks on total defense.

In THREE games this year (Cowboys, Ravens, Bengals) the Skins were in position to win/tie the game in the 4th quarter and the opposition took possession of the ball in the opposition's end of the field. What was needed was a "three-and-out"; the Skins could even have lived with giving up a first down and then forcing a punt. But NO...

In all three games, the opposition offense took the ball and ran off between 12 and 15 plays and ate up most of the clock - - and in the Bengals and Ravens game they scored at the end of that big drive. [Can't recall what happened at the end of the 4th quarter Cowboys' drive when Barber carried the ball about a zillion times in a row.]

The defense - players and coaches but mostly the players - had the ball run down their throats or they gave up a pass over the middle and didn't make a tackle on third and long to allow those drives to continue - - and continue - - and continue.

"Top 10 defenses" make things happen when it really matters; and what they make happen is not allowing a drive to consume 7 minutes of the fourth quarter and end in a score for the other guys.

Oh, by the way, the same Skins defense has been so good in first quarters recently that in the last three games the Skins have been outscored in the first quarter 38-0. That means the defense has given up six scores in the first quarter of the last three games. That STINKS!

In the second and third quarters, they don't allow a lot of yards; that's what keeps them in the "Top 10". Whoop - de - damned - dooo!

When it matters - - at the beginning of the game when it is 0-0 on the scorebard and in the fourth quarter when they need a STOP - - the defense has not done the job. You can fawn all over the players and vote for them to go to the Pro Bowl and sniff their jocks, but they haven't gotten the job done when it mattered this season. Deal with it!

Jason Campbell, Clinton Portis - - name your favorite Redskins' offensive player from the past - - can't do a whole lot when they spend half of the fourth quarter sitting on their asses on the sidelines waiting to get the ball. When it matters, this defensive unit has not delivered the goods.

Coaches to blame? Somewhat. Players to blame? More than coaching. The roster of the team itself to blame? Somewhat.

There needs to be a major overhaul to this roster. Of course, that was needed last year too and the overhaul that happened was that the Skins kept all of their draft picks on the roster even though only one of them can play right now. That's not a positive step. And that should give fans the biggest pause...

The roster needs an overhaul - - but do the people in charge of assembling the roster actually know what it needed here and where to look to find pieces to the puzzle to make it better? Recent evidence does not suggest that they do...

Yeah. There's a bunch of defenses that are CLEARLY cut and dry better than us.

Dallas
Philadelphia
New York Giants
Tennessee
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Tampa Bay
Minnesota

And after that, you can entertain an argument for the Skins defense, and a bunch of other defenses. But we're closer to the bottom ten-twelve then we are to any of those defenses right now. Because those defenses are single-handedly winning football games, and ours is really hurting in the clutch.