For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...

[hail_2_da_skins]

Jason Campbell and Jim Zorn are partially to blame for the failures of the Washington Redskins, but so is the entire organization. This overreacting, fire the coach, bench the quarterback, hire a free agent, knee jerk reaction after every loss is one of the reasons the Redskins have no stability. The Redskins need to adopt a long term philosophy of building from within. The biggest problems with the Redskins is they have no depth, so when a key player is injured, there is a big drop off in talent. If the Skins consistently drafted for depth every year, they would always be developing talent waiting to step in and contribute. Look at an organization like the Steelers or the Patriots, they continue to stock talent on the offensive and defensive lines year after to year. The Redskins give away all their draft picks and rely too heavy on overrated free agents. The off season plan last year was a good one. They stayed away from the high priced free agents and went to the draft. But as the season started, they shifted gears and went out and blew draft picks on overrated, has been players like Jason Taylor and Shaun Alexander. When are the Redskins going to ever learn? Under Dan Snyder, the Skins have been the laughing stock of the NFL. One blunder after another.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

last year we had alot of max protect line schemes going on which is a good reason why the sacks were low last year under gibbs. this year zorn brought in a new spread out offense in which we didnt need extra blockers b/c the qb would be getting the ball out quicker and before pressure could get to him, some call it a 3 step drop. JC does not have the ability to read a D and know where he wants to go with the ball, add to that his long delivery that starts down by his hip and you have a qb who takes alot of punishment and cant flourish under this system.

^^^ not exactly what i believe but is there something irrational or stupid that i said? can we agree that there is more than enough on both sides of the JC debate to allow for honest discussion instead telling people to "STOP" with the JC arguments?

go skins!!!

Nothing irrational or stupid with your points, I disagree with most of them, but they are thoughtful. The STOP was not directed at you or the folks who make reasoned points. It was directed at the "JC sucks" posters and the folks who call people "crazy" (thread starter) for supporting Zorn/JC.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

1) Atlanta Falcons - Rookie Head Coach, ROOKIE QB - 4-12 last year, 9-5 this year
* First time DEFENSIVE background head coach, ROOKIE QB on a team that was 4-12 last year.
* 5-2 over last 7 games... improving
* Points For - 336 Points Against - 281
* Learning curve really has that drastic effect on an offense/QB??

Falcons are 1st in the NFL in rushing, 5th in sacks allowed. They have a much better OL and Mike Mularkey is an experienced, successful OC. Quality wins against: Det, KC, GB, Oak, NO, SD....did beat CHI, CAR & TB

2) Baltimore Ravens - Rookie HC, Rookie QB - 5-11 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time SPECIAL TEAMS background HC, ROOKIE QB.
* 7-2 over last 9 games... improving
* PF - 325 PA - 213
* You can talk about their defense, but that offense with rookie Flacco, much weaker RB crew and basically same talent at receiver/tight end as Skins still = 325 points to our 231.

Ravens are 6th in rushing and tied for 15th in sacks allowed, again much better OL with an experienced, solid OC, Cam Cameron. Quality wins against: CIN (2x), CLE (2x), Oak, Hou, us....did beat MIA, PHI

3) Miami Dolphins - Rookie HC, QB Signed JUST before season - 1-15 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time HC, QB in brand new system, weak receiving depth on a team that was 1-15 LAST YEAR!!
* 7-1 over last 8! (talk about improvement!)
* PF - 283 PA - 269

Miami is 12th in rushing, tied for 15th in sacks allowed has an experienced OC and Bill Parcells as GM. Wins against: SD, NE (early), Buf (2x), Den, Sea, Oak, STL, SF.

[/quote]
4) Washington Redskins - Rookie HC, returning QB in new PASSING system (same running) - 9-7 last year, 7-7 this year
* 1-5 over last 6 games... improving??
* 2-2 vs Rams, Lions, Seahawks, Bengals with a point diff. of +2!!!!
* PF - 231 PA - 266
[/quote]
8th in rushing, most of the yardage earlier in the season, 21st in sacks allowed, an aging and injured OL. Also a first time HC/OC that has a staff he didn't put in place for the most part and is trying to do too much right now.

5) Aaron Rogers, Matt Cassel, Jay Cutler - All QB's same age/experience as Campbell (or less) outplaying (by far) Campbell.

All different situations, GB was in the Conf Championship last year, NE in the SB, and Cutler faces the Raiders & Chiefs twice a year.

We have a better defense than Falcons & Dolphins (with more experience), much better offensive weapons than the Ravens,

We are 29th in sacks and 30th in turnovers. So while statistically we are slightly better then both, we don't have a defense that normally sets our offense up with great field position.

I wouldn't call it crazy to not fire Zorn and bench JC, quite the opposite, it would be foolish for Snyder to fire Zorn and foolish for Zorn to bench Campbell. The problems we have are primarily on the Offensive line (aging, talent declining, injury prone) and Defensive line (no playmaker at DE, no DT who can collapse the pocket). We have other issues, but those two are glaring weaknesses.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I don't think you're going to find many who argue Zorn isn't way over his head at this point. As I said in another thread it won't be a surprise to me if he finds a new home of his own accord (w/o any meddling from Danny). Zorn is utterly overwhelmed and if he has any sense he knows he is outmatched against just about every HC/defensive coordinator he'll face at this level.

I believe we are just experiencing a little calm before the storm here... things will get much more interesting around Redskins park.

I thought Zorn did a good job after we went down by 17 points to come back in the game. Zorn did not fumble the ball to get them rolling and he does not lead the D who looked so flate in the first 1/4 then again letting another team eat up the clock in th 4th. The only thing I questioned yesterday was using Sellers twice at the 1 yard line.

[SmootSmack]

Zorn shouldered a lot of the blame, deserved or not, during his press conference today. I was happy to see that. That was needed I think

[BrunellMVP?]

Originally Posted by 44ever

Agree. 100%

How many fans are just not going to show up? Moreover, they may just write it off to lack of anything to play for as opposed to MASSIVE fan rage. I'm not sure people will just not go either- at a min, they'd sell their tickets. I'd like to send Danny a message...i don't think he'll get it vis a vis a no show

[Dblock804]

That Sellers play should have been called dead. And Colley's fumble was helmet to helmet hit.

[Hail to the Redskins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

TDs thrown is included in the QB rating. I agree stats aren't everything, but they give you a pretty clear indication of trends. Interpretation of stats is important too. If JC had a 77.6 QB rating and was sacked only 1.31 time per game then it's a pretty logical conclusion to say if his QB rating is now 85.7 and he's being sacked 2.43 times per game he's gotten better.

As far as TDs this year he's thrown 13, the teams/QBs mentioned in the first post have thrown 15/15/14 behind better OLs with experienced OCs.

No one is calling anyone stupid, but to ignore facts and statisitics and call those that have facts and statistics to back them up and support Zorn/Campbell "excuse makers"....well, it is what it is.

Ok, let me just say first of all... the whole point of the thread is my response to all of the excuses for Zorn & Campbell... I said in another post that I wholeheartedly believe that teams win with their lines (O & D).

But... Let me say in response to this post...

If Campbell is getting sacked 2.43 times per game, many times because his first option isn't open and he pumps but doesn't throw, then sits and pats the ball without automically knowing the best available option left or throwing it away (or pulling down & running like that super running QB Fitzpatrick!! ha!), that is SOMEONE'S fault right? QB? QB coach? Offensive Passing Scheme with not enough viable options & blockers??

That leaves Campbell & Zorn...

Again... let me say... I am not saying we need to fire either, I never even came close to saying it... I am just saying that it is time to use the "inexperienced" excuse for both... they HAVE to improve IMMENSELY for this team not to become the Lions/Bengals/Rams of the next couple of years... these other teams (Falcons/Dolphins/Ravens) have done so in months, not years

Oh, also, for those saying Zorn didn't fumble the ball on the goal line ... he called SELLERS number TWICE in a row!! Portis hasn't scored a touchdown in what, 6-7 weeks? Maybe, if he would have used our fullback to plow an opening for our once MVP candidate RB...

And... those saying our D is much to blame for yesterday, sure, ok, they were worse than usual, but... we went three and out for the first quarter and a half of the game against one of the league's worst defenses!!! Just don't forget how bad the offense was to start the game (and every game over the past 6)

[Hail to the Redskins]

Just want to say, as well, because I started the thread and alot had been misunderstood along the way...

My point is, for this season, the MAIN/MAJORITY reason we will not be in the playoff or playing for a Super Bowl is because of our offense/passing game!

* First of all, name one new starter from last years team... Chris Horton? Jason Taylor? only one's I can think of... so we returned the majority of a 9-7 playoff team.

* Defense is NOT TO BLAME!! The ONLY stat that matters is POINTS ALLOWED... or am I wrong?
* Our defense has not given up more than 24 points in a game all season (Pittsburgh is only other team to say that) - 12 teams are AVERAGING allowing more than 24 per game!! And one is a playoff team (Arizona)
* OUR defense averages giving up 19.0 per game - 7th in the NFL!!
* Our defense is good enough to make the playoffs!

* We have the 7th ranked running offense... I'd say good enough for a playoff team.

I am just saying that yes, these two guys (mostly Zorn) are the MAIN reason we are not making the playoffs this season. Now, do I agree that maybe with this cast of players needed an established coach/OC? Heck yes and the ultimate blame should go to Cerratto & Snyder, because we weren't ready to completely rebuild yet and could very well be what the Falcons/Ravens/Dolphins are this year.... but... that just reinforces that Zorn (and Campbell under him) has been the main reason we are where we are

I'm not saying that Campbell should go ... as far as Zorn? It depends... if you want to tear everything down and rebuild completely under his new philosophies, ok, let's go there...

but if you think we have a majority of playoff talent and just need some GOOD offseason moves to really go deep in playoffs, we may need the type of change the Falcons/Ravens/ Dolphins got which is experienced OC and HC...

[Swarley]

Threads like these remind me how weird we can be as fans at times. Before the season started most of our fan base (and others) agreed that the Skins would struggle to win on a consistent basis and would likely be out of the playoffs. After our fast start it seems those same people overrated our team and thought we would have no problem getting into the playoffs. Now that we've hit a pretty bad patch those people feel "betrayed" when in truth our team is pretty much where we expected them to be in the first place if not better. If more people would take a step back and see just how early it is to have too many expectations of our team we'd be a lot better off.

[djnemo65]

The author of this thread needs to take an introductory course in logic and/or statistics, because his argument makes no sense. If all four teams were playing the same schedule with identical supporting staffs it would be a valid argument. They aren't, so it's not.

[Hail to the Redskins]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

The author of this thread needs to take an introductory course in logic and/or statistics, because his argument makes no sense. If all four teams were playing the same schedule with identical supporting staffs it would be a valid argument. They aren't, so it's not.

The attacks are really getting old...

1) Supporting staffs?? We returned more staff from last year than the Dolphins/Falcons (not sure on Ravens, but i'd say there too)

... the WHOLE POINT of the argument revolves around the specific area of those team's HC/OC portion of their staff being a much more productive, successful, talented group than ours...

2)Schedule? Like I said... we are 2-2 versus teams with a combined 5-47-1 record versus the rest of the league... hello?? don't talk about strength of schedule...

if comparing one NFL coaching staff to another NFL coaching staff isn't logically or statistically prudent enough for you, maybe you should take an introductory course on the word logic..

[itvnetop]

I think SS made a good point regarding our impatience vs. reality. Skins' fans refuse to go through a "rebuilding" phase that includes major overhauls of staff, player and philosophical overhauls that lead to consecutive top-10 draft seasons. I don't call the last decade or so of bad-mediocre seasons "rebuilding", as so much as we were restocking... some of those seasons just had records similar to inexperienced teams.

We blame Snyder when he meddles, when he pulls the trigger too fast, when he makes big splashes. We blame the team when they don't make changes. We blame the rookies when they're not performing at Pro-Bowl levels their first year. Maybe Snyder is just a reflection of us. If any of us were in his position, the fanbase would still be looking for blood. Maybe we're the problem?

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

The attacks are really getting old...

1) Supporting staffs?? We returned more staff from last year than the Dolphins/Falcons (not sure on Ravens, but i'd say there too)

... the WHOLE POINT of the argument revolves around the specific area of those team's HC/OC portion of their staff being a much more productive, successful, talented group than ours...

2)Schedule? Like I said... we are 2-2 versus teams with a combined 5-47-1 record versus the rest of the league... hello?? don't talk about strength of schedule...

if comparing one NFL coaching staff to another NFL coaching staff isn't logically or statistically prudent enough for you, maybe you should take an introductory course on the word logic..

If one wishes to criticize the Redskins, there exists ample material with which to do that. Many posters on this site have produced effective and often devastating analyses attacking both the coaching staff and the players. Very edifying, love reading it. However, comparing the Skins to the Dolphins, or Falcons, or 85 Bears, or 96 Chicago Bulls, or whatever is completely arbitrary and irrelevant. That’s not the standard by which we judge them. Now, it's one thing to produce smart analysis drawing parallels between coaching staffs with similar traits and circumstances. This type of soft-analysis is what good sportswriters and good posters do. It is another to point at a different team with a new coach and QB and say, see, their success mathematically, incontrovertibly proves the Redskins suck. One is interesting, the other is ass stoopid.

I wouldn't have so big a problem with your thread if you weren't imbuing it with the language of statistics, something you clearly don't understand.

[Hail to the Redskins]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

If one wishes to criticize the Redskins, there exists ample material with which to do that. Many posters on this site have produced effective and often devastating analyses attacking both the coaching staff and the players. Very edifying, love reading it. However, comparing the Skins to the Dolphins, or Falcons, or 85 Bears, or 96 Chicago Bulls, or whatever is completely arbitrary and irrelevant. That’s not the standard by which we judge them. Now, it's one thing to produce smart analysis drawing parallels between coaching staffs with similar traits and circumstances. This type of soft-analysis is what good sportswriters and good posters do. It is another to point at a different team with a new coach and QB and say, see, their success mathematically, incontrovertibly proves the Redskins suck. One is interesting, the other is ass stoopid.

I wouldn't have so big a problem with your thread if you weren't imbuing it with the language of statistics, something you clearly don't understand.

"the language of statistics" you are mentioning would be...? Points scored and points allowed??? Record versus the worst teams in football (a combined 5-47-1 aginst the rest of the league)??

231 points scored for one team compared to 336, 325, 283 for the other three... help me with understanding these tough statistics...which is better??

oh yeah, that's right... points don't matter when comparing one team to another.. right?


And who said anything about the '85 Bears??? Are you seriously criticizing my post when you take a little bit of information and stretch it as far as you possibly can with words just to try and support some really idiotic analysis? Like I need your approval for anything??

I am comparing 4 teams with new Head Coaches who have had to install new offenses with 4 "new" (to the system) QB's ... using the only stat that REALLY matters... POINTS! ... yeah, apples to grapes....

let's just agree to disagree because I can't read anymore mid-numbingly ignorant people who only want to criticize other people when make absolutely no common sense themselves...

if you disagree that JC and JZ should be to blame for our season, fine, just say so... but to attack me personally with no reasonable logic....