Originally Posted by JoeRedskin
And now in the spirit of constructive dialogue rather than argument, I am going to try and make sure I understand your position and see if there is common ground with mine that can be expanded.
I agree with you as to single payer option. Taking a market that has already got market flaws and basically remove any market controls is a recipe for a decline in quality and rise in cost.
I, too, am for covering the uninsured. I just don't know if it can be done "by reasonable means".
"Reasonable" is a fudgy undefined word that means different things to different people. Again, I and my wife are willing to make sacrifices both personally and as a family, to address the needs of others who cannot help themselves. I think most on the forum would take that position. Yes, there are some truly selfish individuals who would refuse to even consider the needs of others - but, let's start from an assumption that if we could reach a consensus on "reasonable means" the vast majority of americans would be happy to fund UHC. I think its safe to say your definition of "reasonable" is much broader than mine and many others.
As to my understanding of "reasonable means", I think I have already stated that, although I am willing to bear some increased cost to address the health needs of the truly uninsured, I will not accept any decline in quality of care for my wife and children as "reasonable". I understand you believe the current system is headed for a decline in quality as it currently exists - I am not sure that is true but would be willing to defer to a Schneed call on that one (he may have already been addressed this point but, again, I just don't know). Also, if it can be demonstrated to me with a high degree of certainty that a real life saving benefit will accrue to those who cannot help themselves, then I think I could agree to some marginal decrease in the quality of care for my kids (for that one you need some damn solid proof and not merely anecdotal crap - as I would hope for all parents, the interests of my children are paramount and I will defend them to the death as they cannot do so for themselves). Also, in terms of increasing the federal deficit to create or fund UHC, I oppose it, unless it is a moderate one time expenditure, as I don't think creating a system that cannot fund itself is "reasonable".
Honestly, I am not exactly sure what you consider "reasonable means". I am not trying to pick a fight here, I am trying to understand - I think I have pretty well spelled out what I consider "reasonable". In the spirit of finding common ground, tell me the impact (in terms of cost and quality of care) you would expect me to bear as "reasonable" in return for implementation of UHC. If you have already explained your definition in this manner, please, humor me and do so again as I simply do not recall you doing so.
I also think we agree that the current system is flawed for any number of reasons. Because the flaws and their solutions are so complicated, I whole heartedly agree a commission should be created to brutally analyze the system and find creative solutions to the burgeoning health care problems.
I think we both agree that the pending legislation shouldn't go through before the recess. Maybe I am wrong on that because, while you indicated you would rather have a commission study things for a year and then issue a report (a principle I agree with), you have also indicated that you believe something/anything is better than nothing. Can you clarify - would you rather the current legislation pass without your study being done or would you be willing to call you legislator and ask him to table the current bills and commission a study.
I am afraid that the "anything/something" will result in a excerbating the ills of an already flawed infrastructure and that we, as a country, probably only have one shot at this issue b/c once something is done no one will be able to muster the political will to open it back up again. I like your idea of a study, but how to keep the fire under it and political will alive to effect real change would be a challenge. Got any suggestions?
[In order to address your anything/something immediacy goal, I wonder if there is a way to create a short term legislation while a study was conducted("Be it enacted that this bill expires in 3 years unless reenacted by two thirds majority of both houses" or something like that). Not sure it could be done given the incredible market realignment that is going to happen regardless of what legislation eventually passes.]
So, it seems to me that the main hurdle we have to clear as a preliminary matter is to define "reasonable means" in a manner that a majority will support. Also, can we agree that the current legislation should be tabled and figure out a way to get the government to focus its resources on really breaking down the current system and come up with creative solutions to fix it.
Not sure if we can reach common ground on this but I (and I imagine many others) would be willing to try IF you will agree to question your assumptions as to right/wrong and not simply dismiss ideas that don't fit within those presumptions.
And this next part is argument -- Hopefully, you can find a way to turn it into constructive dialogue: You state "unlike you there are 'many folks' who just don't care to explore the subject to begin with. I don't care for these people at all." I assert that many of the people you dismiss as not wishing to explore the subject have actually done so and run into the same wall mentioned above - but that their resolution of these roadblocks involves assumptions (as pointed out in my prior post) that run contrary to your belief system and so you dismiss them. Perhaps if you engaged in a less dismissive fashion, questioned your assumptions, and sought common ground you might actually find a creative solutions that had not appeared to you or the "many folks" you so casually dismiss.
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07-24-2009, 01:31 PM
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